A tiptoe through TULIP...

[crimsonleaf]

T. I really do understand how an atheist feels, a luxury many Christians haven't fully experienced. I know what it feels like to totally reject God. I know how it feels to be free from the need to pray. I revelled in the joys of self-determination and freedom from responsibility. I was an atheist for 11 years. It was my will to remain so. Did I have the ability to change? Yes, but I really saw no need. I just didn't want to.

I. The doctrine of Original Sin tells me that this is how I should have remained, were it not for the intervention of the Holy Spirit, who has personally shown me an alternative. And understanding this alternative has given me no reasonable, or even possible reason to reject it. That alternative is a life eternally spent with God. Once I understood who God was, my love for Him has kindled within me a desire to do only that which He deems good. I can still be as bad as I want, but I have no desire to. Every now and again I backslide in some small way, but I'm no longer the slave to sin I was before, now that my will has been freed.

U. But why me? What have I done to deserve this free gift? Have I earned it? What exactly did I do to make myself worthy? The answer is - nothing. On the contrary, while not as bad as I could be I was certainly nothing that God should count as worthy. Not by my standards anyway, and I would have thought that there was nothing in me that made me any better than any of you. Maybe God has lower standards than me? But that doesn't make sense. God's standards are impossible to meet, although as time goes on I feel I'm getting closer to what He wants. I'm not trying to earn my salvation; I've already got it. I guess my response is one of thanks and love. I'll just have to accept that God has enabled me to love Him for His own reasons. After all, we're told that no one can know His ways or fully understand His thoughts.

L. But, knowing as I do that everything comes at a price, a seemingly universal law whatever your philosophical outlook, how is it I get all this for nothing? I understand that to work against God's wishes is sinful, so I've sinned. That's a given. Yet I'm forgiven, so who pays for my past "indiscretions". The answer lies in the atoning death of the Lord Jesus Christ. He died for my sins, freeing me for God's forgiveness. Some Christians say He died for everyone's sins, but that can't be true, otherwise everyone would be as I am, forgiven and saved. Knowing that He chose me for salvation has really boosted my love and gratitude towards Him. I was bad, I did nothing to earn this gift, and I have nothing to pay. What an amazing, sovereign God.

P. How can I be sure that this isn't just a flash in the pan? Self-delusion? I suppose only time will tell. I'm told that Christ said that He would never let one of His sheep stray. So I trust that that's the case. If I do stray, then all of this has been a delusion. If not, then it's the real thing. I guess the key will be to keep lines of communication open. The minute I stop talking to God He might stop acting for me, and I won't want that to happen. My only desire is that I continue to walk with Him. I know that if I persevere with God, God will persevere with me.

T, I, U, L, P - rearranged into TULIP: Total Depravity; Unconditional Election; Limited atonement; Irresistible grace; Perseverance of the Saints.

It's hard to see why everything I've outlined forms the most despised doctrine amongst my Christian brethren.

Your turn - tell me why.

 

[guuila]

T. I really do understand how an atheist feels, a luxury many Christians haven't fully experienced. I know what it feels like to totally reject God. I know how it feels to be free from the need to pray. I revelled in the joys of self-determination and freedom from responsibility. I was an atheist for 11 years. It was my will to remain so. Did I have the ability to change? Yes, but I really saw no need. I just didn't want to.

Awesome. I always love talking to former atheists. I don't have that luxury... I've always been a professing Christian - even though I wasn't saved until I was 27. Just to clarify for the dissenters - your not seeing any need to change was precisely what kept you from changing. It's not that you couldn't make some kind of choice. It's that the desire for righteousness through Christ wasn't there. That's the impediment that must be overcome, and this can only happen by grace. We're not sovereign over our desires, as our synergistic brethren want us to believe (even though they seem to have a hard time making themselves love Calvinism - which shouldn't be a problem if they are truly autonomous.)

L. But, knowing as I do that everything comes at a price, a seemingly universal law whatever your philosophical outlook, how is it I get all this for nothing? I understand that to work against God's wishes is sinful, so I've sinned. That's a given. Yet I'm forgiven, so who pays for my past "indiscretions". The answer lies in the atoning death of the Lord Jesus Christ. He died for my sins, freeing me for God's forgiveness. Some Christians say He died for everyone's sins, but that can't be true, otherwise everyone would be as I am, forgiven and saved. Knowing that He chose me for salvation has really boosted my love and gratitude towards Him. I was bad, I did nothing to earn this gift, and I have nothing to pay. What an amazing, sovereign God.

Exactly how I feel. I'm so much more grateful for my salvation after knowing God sent Jesus for me specifically. He didn't just send Jesus in general and then leave it up to me to make Jesus' death worth something. No. Jesus came and died specifically for me. Words can't describe the feeling I have knowing that.

 

[motherprayer]

It's hard to see why everything I've outlined forms the most despised doctrine amongst my Christian brethren.
Your turn - tell me why.

First, I will address this, as this is the most important piece of your message. I believe that the Calvinist doctrine, more-so than even being the most despised doctrine, is the most misunderstood doctrine. I am not sure if you read my “rant” against labels on the threat about Calvinism allegedly being annoying, but labels have caused Calvinism to become a hot button issue among Christians, partly because of the “label” predestination. Speaking the word predestination seems to be to be akin to opening the doors of the local asylum, it brings out every crazy within reach. Please understand, I’m not trying to say that it is a bad word, or that it shouldn’t be used, but simply that it carries with it some negative connotations. Predestination is nearly as misunderstood as Calvinism. I believe that Calvinists DO in fact have a better understanding of the subject than many, but the problem is getting the message across to those who generally have first heard the term used by those who DON’T fully understand it. So, on to TULIP 

T. I really do understand how an atheist feels, a luxury many Christians haven't fully experienced. I know what it feels like to totally reject God. I know how it feels to be free from the need to pray. I reveled in the joys of self-determination and freedom from responsibility. I was an atheist for 11 years. It was my will to remain so. Did I have the ability to change? Yes, but I really saw no need. I just didn't want to.

Total Depravity. I think this is actually the main things I disagree with regarding Calvinism. You see, I have a remarkably different experience from you, and so do many people that I know. I feel that Total Depravity doesn’t leave room for people who, like me, always felt a need for God, even when I refused to acknowledge Christ as my savior. Now I do understand that the typical response would be that God had already saved me by that time, but that would mean that as a drug-taking, sex-having, overall general heathen, I was saved and would have gone to heaven.
To be more specific, I was a roughneck for a long time, but during those years, I always desired Christ. I wanted Him, but was either afraid to turn to Him, or I was too angry with Him to come into His presence. I felt that I wasn’t good enough and never could be, but desperately wanted the spiritual connection I could see Christians had with an absolutely perfect Holy Father.
You see, I don’t understand where the “Lukewarm Christian” falls as far as Calvinism goes. Maybe someone could clarify that for me. I’m talking about the person who professes Christ, desires Christ in their heart, but lives a lifestyle contrary to what He desires for us. I DO believe that as Christians we have a command to love our Lord with all our hearts, and love our neighbors as ourselves, and to expressly follow commands given to us by Christ.

I. The doctrine of Original Sin tells me that this is how I should have remained, were it not for the intervention of the Holy Spirit, who has personally shown me an alternative. And understanding this alternative has given me no reasonable, or even possible reason to reject it. That alternative is a life eternally spent with God. Once I understood who God was, my love for Him has kindled within me a desire to do only that which He deems good. I can still be as bad as I want, but I have no desire to. Every now and again I backslide in some small way, but I'm no longer the slave to sin I was before, now that my will has been freed.

With this, I agree.

U. But why me? What have I done to deserve this free gift? Have I earned it? What exactly did I do to make myself worthy? The answer is - nothing. On the contrary, while not as bad as I could be I was certainly nothing that God should count as worthy. Not by my standards anyway, and I would have thought that there was nothing in me that made me any better than any of you. Maybe God has lower standards than me? But that doesn't make sense. God's standards are impossible to meet, although as time goes on I feel I'm getting closer to what He wants. I'm not trying to earn my salvation; I've already got it. I guess my response is one of thanks and love. I'll just have to accept that God has enabled me to love Him for His own reasons. After all, we're told that no one can know His ways or fully understand His thoughts.

I also agree with this.

L. But, knowing as I do that everything comes at a price, a seemingly universal law whatever your philosophical outlook, how is it I get all this for nothing? I understand that to work against God's wishes is sinful, so I've sinned. That's a given. Yet I'm forgiven, so who pays for my past "indiscretions". The answer lies in the atoning death of the Lord Jesus Christ. He died for my sins, freeing me for God's forgiveness. Some Christians say He died for everyone's sins, but that can't be true, otherwise everyone would be as I am, forgiven and saved. Knowing that He chose me for salvation has really boosted my love and gratitude towards Him. I was bad, I did nothing to earn this gift, and I have nothing to pay. What an amazing, sovereign God.

Grace is so wonderful ain’t it!

P. How can I be sure that this isn't just a flash in the pan? Self-delusion? I suppose only time will tell. I'm told that Christ said that He would never let one of His sheep stray. So I trust that that's the case. If I do stray, then all of this has been a delusion. If not, then it's the real thing. I guess the key will be to keep lines of communication open. The minute I stop talking to God He might stop acting for me, and I won't want that to happen. My only desire is that I continue to walk with Him. I know that if I persevere with God, God will persevere with me.

I absolutely believe in perseverance!

Bottom line, like most denominations and doctrines, I find some pieces I agree with and some I dont, and therefore I won't call myself a Calvinist, per se, but, my Calvinist brethren, I did take a good look at Calvinism, using sites that come from a pro-Calvinist perspective (because what is hilarious is all the people who quote sites that bash Calvinism, but those sites are so Anti-Calvinism, it is obvious they have an agenda) and I feel I probably have a better understanding now (Thanks Skala) of the Calvinist doctrine than just about any other non-Calvinist on this site.

Blessings and love from the Sporkhead!

 

[crimsonleaf]

First, I will address this, as this is the most important piece of your message. I believe that the Calvinist doctrine, more-so than even being the most despised doctrine, is the most misunderstood doctrine. I am not sure if you read my “rant” against labels on the threat about Calvinism allegedly being annoying, but labels have caused Calvinism to become a hot button issue among Christians, partly because of the “label” predestination. Speaking the word predestination seems to be to be akin to opening the doors of the local asylum, it brings out every crazy within reach. Please understand, I’m not trying to say that it is a bad word, or that it shouldn’t be used, but simply that it carries with it some negative connotations. Predestination is nearly as misunderstood as Calvinism. I believe that Calvinists DO in fact have a better understanding of the subject than many, but the problem is getting the message across to those who generally have first heard the term used by those who DON’T fully understand it. So, on to TULIP 

This is a serious attempt to try to present TULIP in a practical, living sense, rather than just trotting out a series of definitions. I hope it helps.

Total Depravity. I think this is actually the main things I disagree with regarding Calvinism. You see, I have a remarkably different experience from you, and so do many people that I know. I feel that Total Depravity doesn’t leave room for people who, like me, always felt a need for God, even when I refused to acknowledge Christ as my savior. Now I do understand that the typical response would be that God had already saved me by that time, but that would mean that as a drug-taking, sex-having, overall general heathen, I was saved and would have gone to heaven.
To be more specific, I was a roughneck for a long time, but during those years, I always desired Christ. I wanted Him, but was either afraid to turn to Him, or I was too angry with Him to come into His presence. I felt that I wasn’t good enough and never could be, but desperately wanted the spiritual connection I could see Christians had with an absolutely perfect Holy Father.
You see, I don’t understand where the “Lukewarm Christian” falls as far as Calvinism goes. Maybe someone could clarify that for me. I’m talking about the person who professes Christ, desires Christ in their heart, but lives a lifestyle contrary to what He desires for us. I DO believe that as Christians we have a command to love our Lord with all our hearts, and love our neighbors as ourselves, and to expressly follow commands given to us by Christ.

Your experience is identical to mine, just that the Holy Spirit got to you sooner. You said that you, "...always desired Christ. I wanted Him, but was either afraid to turn to Him, or I was too angry with Him to come into His presence..." No man (woman) can desire Christ without the help of the Holy Spirit. Full stop (period). Your struggle is contained in the section where I say "Every now and again I backslide in some small way, but I'm no longer the slave to sin I was before, now that my will has been freed." Admittedly, your resistance to Christ was a bigger battle, but it was one you were always going to lose, and we all have differing degrees of our old selves to leave behind. Don't believe those who say that once you're saved you cannot sin. Neither you nor I has ever met a sinless man, but we've both met plenty of saved ones. You were saved the second you knew that you desired Christ, but sanctification can be a slow process, and slower for some than others depending upon the resistance of "the flesh".

The corollary though, is that some lukewarm "Christians" are never saved. They like the idea of Christ but never truly turn to him. Intellectually it's a buzz. Eventually they backslide to oblivion. You have not, and I'll guess, will not.

With this, I agree.

So you should

I also agree with this.

It gets easier...

Grace is so wonderful ain’t it!

It's better knowing that I didn't have to work to get it. Grace is free, not earned.

I absolutely believe in perseverance!

Bottom line, like most denominations and doctrines, I find some pieces I agree with and some I dont, and therefore I won't call myself a Calvinist, per se, but, my Calvinist brethren, I did take a good look at Calvinism, using sites that come from a pro-Calvinist perspective (because what is hilarious is all the people who quote sites that bash Calvinism, but those sites are so Anti-Calvinism, it is obvious they have an agenda) and I feel I probably have a better understanding now (Thanks Skala) of the Calvinist doctrine than just about any other non-Calvinist on this site.

Blessings and love from the Sporkhead!

Sporkhead, my... never mind.

I'm pleased that we've reached so much agreement. It may even be 100% if I've tackled the lukewarm Christian bit. See you back in the asylum.

 

[guuila]

Total Depravity. I think this is actually the main things I disagree with regarding Calvinism. You see, I have a remarkably different experience from you, and so do many people that I know. I feel that Total Depravity doesn’t leave room for people who, like me, always felt a need for God, even when I refused to acknowledge Christ as my savior.

What do you think about John 6:44? Jesus specifically said that no man has the innate ability to come to him. That's what total depravity teaches. It's better understood as total inability. It doesn't mean we're as bad as we can be, or that we don't have a conscience that tells us we're doing wrong... it just means that we will never come to Christ unless the Father first draws us. Even Arminians affirm this doctrine. The difference is, they believe God draws everyone while Calvinists don't.

Now I do understand that the typical response would be that God had already saved me by that time, but that would mean that as a drug-taking, sex-having, overall general heathen, I was saved and would have gone to heaven.
To be more specific, I was a roughneck for a long time, but during those years, I always desired Christ. I wanted Him, but was either afraid to turn to Him, or I was too angry with Him to come into His presence. I felt that I wasn’t good enough and never could be, but desperately wanted the spiritual connection I could see Christians had with an absolutely perfect Holy Father.
You see, I don’t understand where the “Lukewarm Christian” falls as far as Calvinism goes. Maybe someone could clarify that for me. I’m talking about the person who professes Christ, desires Christ in their heart, but lives a lifestyle contrary to what He desires for us. I DO believe that as Christians we have a command to love our Lord with all our hearts, and love our neighbors as ourselves, and to expressly follow commands given to us by Christ.

None of us are perfect. We still battle the flesh like Paul did in Romans 7. The Christians in 1 Cor. 3 were described as 'carnal'. While we are commanded to live holy lives, it is impossible to reach perfection as long as we're in this mortal body of death. How much a person can sin habitually and be a true Christian, only God knows. But it's pretty obvious that if a person shows no fruit of the Spirit at all while professing to be a Christian, they lie and the truth isn't in them according to 1 John.

I absolutely believe in perseverance!

Why? If salvation is an act of the will, why can't you be saved and then change your mind? What guarantees you will persevere in faith to the end?

Bottom line, like most denominations and doctrines, I find some pieces I agree with and some I dont, and therefore I won't call myself a Calvinist, per se, but, my Calvinist brethren, I did take a good look at Calvinism, using sites that come from a pro-Calvinist perspective (because what is hilarious is all the people who quote sites that bash Calvinism, but those sites are so Anti-Calvinism, it is obvious they have an agenda) and I feel I probably have a better understanding now (Thanks Skala) of the Calvinist doctrine than just about any other non-Calvinist on this site.

I truly appreciate this. You are unique.

 

[crimsonleaf]

Hi again Griff. We crossed in the posting, but it seems we're on the same page.

 

[guuila]

Hi again Griff. We crossed in the posting, but it seems we're on the same page.

 

[motherprayer]

Crimsonleaf, I do very much appreciate your presentation of TULIP. Nice Job!

Griff, thanks for the responses!

See, y'all, we have more in common than was previously believed! The problem for me before, like so many others, was that Calvinism was first presented to me (not by any of you) by someone who misunderstood and misrepresented it.

 

[guuila]

Crimsonleaf, I do very much appreciate your presentation of TULIP. Nice Job!

Griff, thanks for the responses!

See, y'all, we have more in common than was previously believed! The problem for me before, like so many others, was that Calvinism was first presented to me (not by any of you) by someone who misunderstood and misrepresented it.

Future Calvinist right here... give it time.

 

[motherprayer]

I don't like labels -__-

 

[guuila]

I don't like labels -__-

Future person who believes salvation is completely and utterly by grace alone.

 

[crimsonleaf]

Well, for the first time in days I feel I haven't wasted my breath, although I notice it's pretty quiet here for a thread that's already had 64 views...

You'd think someone would put up a fight.

 

[guuila]

Well, for the first time in days I feel I haven't wasted my breath, although I notice it's pretty quiet here for a thread that's already had 64 views...

You'd think someone would put up a fight.

Imagine how much more productive these things would be if people were as honest as motherprayer and actually tried to understand what they're talking about.

 

[crimsonleaf]

Ah, honesty. The sign of a true Christian...

 

[Skala]

Total Depravity. I think this is actually the main things I disagree with regarding Calvinism. You see, I have a remarkably different experience from you, and so do many people that I know. I feel that Total Depravity doesn’t leave room for people who, like me, always felt a need for God, even when I refused to acknowledge Christ as my savior. Now I do understand that the typical response would be that God had already saved me by that time, but that would mean that as a drug-taking, sex-having, overall general heathen, I was saved and would have gone to heaven.
To be more specific, I was a roughneck for a long time, but during those years, I always desired Christ. I wanted Him, but was either afraid to turn to Him, or I was too angry with Him to come into His presence. I felt that I wasn’t good enough and never could be, but desperately wanted the spiritual connection I could see Christians had with an absolutely perfect Holy Father.
You see, I don’t understand where the “Lukewarm Christian” falls as far as Calvinism goes. Maybe someone could clarify that for me. I’m talking about the person who professes Christ, desires Christ in their heart, but lives a lifestyle contrary to what He desires for us. I DO believe that as Christians we have a command to love our Lord with all our hearts, and love our neighbors as ourselves, and to expressly follow commands given to us by Christ.

Hi MP

Thanks for sharing your testimony.

What I would like to interject with is something that gives God all the credit for your life experiences and your eventual conversion and salvation. You see, when a Calvinist reads that you always felt a need and desire for Jesus, we immediately see the Holy Spirit's work in your life. God had planned (from eternity past even) to bring you to Jesus. So when I see your life experience, I see God at work to bring you to Jesus and your eventual salvation, which is what He always planned to do from the beginning.

You say you disagree with Total Depravity because of the fact that you always desired a relationship with God, but in fact, if you give God's grace the credit for this desire, you immediately acknowledge that Total Depravity is in fact true. (That is, without God's grace, you wouldn't have desired reconciliation with him in the first place, which proves Total Depravity, as Total Depravity says that man, left to himself, would never seek God, in keeping with Paul's teaching on the subject.)

I hope that makes sense

So I guess the question is, do you in fact think God was at work in your life and his grace is the ultimate reason you eventually came to Christ?

If yes - then you admit Total Depravity is in fact true (and you're very close to admitting the whole thing...election...irresistible grace...etc)

Thanks for the post crimson, and the input from everyone.

 

[crimsonleaf]

Thanks for the post crimson, and the input from everyone.

It's nice not to feel like a cross between the village idiot and the local Nazi Commandant for a change.

 

[Eddie L]

Crimsonleaf, I do very much appreciate your presentation of TULIP. Nice Job!

Griff, thanks for the responses!

See, y'all, we have more in common than was previously believed! The problem for me before, like so many others, was that Calvinism was first presented to me (not by any of you) by someone who misunderstood and misrepresented it.

I appreciate your honesty on this. The anger and agendas presented in the usual witch hunts around the topic of Calvinism have many side effects, not the least of which is the tendency of either side to become over-enamored with their distinctions. I agree that the differences between monergists and synergists are important, but if believers on either side aren't careful they will miss the forest for the trees.

I guess I'm saying that many of the misconceptions are the result of one side being so afraid of having something in common with the other that they themselves have to stand too far away from the truths we have in common, or they have to re-cast the other side's views to make it appear that the other side is standing too far away from that common truth.

The anger between the sides, to me at least, appears logically inconsistent. If it is up to a human choice, synergists have no room to be angry at those that choose to believe something different than what they do. If grace truly is the only difference between people, then it makes no sense for a monergist to become angry at the synergist, whose understanding can eventually only be changed by grace.

 

[crimsonleaf]

I feel peace breaking out...

Don't worry, it won't last.

 

[motherprayer]

Future person who believes salvation is completely and utterly by grace alone.

Well I already believe that lol I believed that before I ever heard the word Calvinism

 

[crimsonleaf]

Well I already believe that lol I believed that before I ever heard the word Calvinism

Don't spoil it - I'm on a high.