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There is no point in beating this dead horse further. I understand your eisegetical approach to this passage and I believe that you understand my exegetical approach.
What? A conjunction means "not included."? The definition of a conjunction IS INCLUSION.We do not know in the language of the first century if infants were included as part of the "whole Household" and there is reason to question that. 1 Timothy 3:12 A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well. There is a conjunction between his children and household which suggests the deacon's children were not included in the household.
Yeap. Credo's always want credit for something they can't credit for.The person who undergoes baptism is far from passive. He or she, at a minimum, must arrange for the rite to be performed and get themselves to the sacred location. They must unwittingly or willingly permit the priest to perform the rite.
If, in fact, no effort was required, then God would simply bestow His baptismal grace upon all mankind in their passive state, without any fuss or bother on the part of people.
You say: "I like ice cream and bananas", which is a great example because Bananas are not ice cream or any part of ice cream. In 1 Tim. 3:12 the children were not included in the household shown by there being a conjunction between them.What? A conjunction means "not included."? The definition of a conjunction IS INCLUSION.
Are you saying every time the word "and" is used the noun preceding the conjunction is not included? So if I were to say "I like ice cream and bananas," it really means "I like bananas." This is nonsense.
You fail to realize that Paul links children and households together TWICE in 1 Tim. 3 (v1) [a pastor] He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity. Here we have a word order reversal of "children" and "household" to "household" and "children." Using your own twisted logic----are you saying in your words "here is a conjunction between his household and children which suggests the deacon "household" were not included with children.
This is nonsense.
Individuals can get away with this kind of interpretation on CF, but at Anytown High School, the person would get an "F" by an English teacher.
From your nickname it seems that you may reject the idea of the sacraments as symbols and metaphors but nothing more, is that so?I'm going to stay as far away from this conversation...
Sacraments as a symbol is unbiblical. Why? The greek word for symbol is "symbolia" and the word IS NOT found in the NT nor in the LXX. No where does the NT describe a sacrament as a symbol. Those that do describe baptism or the Lord's supper as a symbol, do so by theological innovation.From your nickname it seems that you may reject the idea of the sacraments as symbols and metaphors but nothing more, is that so?
Question: I always thought the Exodus cloud and the Flood waters were real baptisms via Type and Anti Type. I understand the antitype is always greater, but due to the fact that the NT mentions baptism as a type, seems to be greater than being "analogous." In otherwords, did the cloud and the flood waters convey any of the promises attached to NT baptism on OT recipients?Yes, baptism is washing with water and the word. It brings regeneration. The flood is not baptism, but its washing action which washed away the filth of the fallen and deeply sinful creation is an analogy of washing away the filth of sin in baptism. The thing to grasp is that the flood's waters are analogous to baptism but they are not baptism.
The cloud and the flood waters were signs of what was happening. The Bible says the flood indeed prefigured Baptism, and water is the typical sign of Baptism.Question: I always thought the Exodus cloud and the Flood waters were real baptisms via Type and Anti Type. I understand the antitype is always greater, but due to the fact that the NT mentions baptism as a type, seems to be greater than being "analogous." In otherwords, did the cloud and the flood waters convey any of the promises attached to NT baptism on OT recipients?
We have, in the OT both the Flood and the waters of the Red Sea which have been viewed as types of baptism. Curiously, both the Flood and the Red Sea were primarily destructive in nature - eliminating both all but eight people in the Flood, and eliminating Pharaoh's army in the Red Sea. I personally do not perceive any destruction with the water of baptism, do you? It seems that there might some sort of general metaphor, at best.Question: I always thought the Exodus cloud and the Flood waters were real baptisms via Type and Anti Type. I understand the antitype is always greater, but due to the fact that the NT mentions baptism as a type, seems to be greater than being "analogous." In otherwords, did the cloud and the flood waters convey any of the promises attached to NT baptism on OT recipients?
Exodus is a different situation from the one under discussion in Peter's comments; he was writing about the flood of Noah's day recorded in Genesis.Question: I always thought the Exodus cloud and the Flood waters were real baptisms via Type and Anti Type. I understand the antitype is always greater, but due to the fact that the NT mentions baptism as a type, seems to be greater than being "analogous." In otherwords, did the cloud and the flood waters convey any of the promises attached to NT baptism on OT recipients?
Martin Luther's famous FLOOD PRAYER.I personally do not perceive any destruction with the water of baptism, do you?
Thanks! That is a wonderful prayer. Luther really was an amazing Christian man.Martin Luther's famous FLOOD PRAYER.
Almighty and eternal God, according to Your strict judgment You condemned the unbelieving world through the flood, yet according to Your great mercy You preserved believing Noah and his family, eight souls in all. You drowned hard-hearted Pharaoh and all his host in the Red Sea, yet led Your people Israel through the water on dry ground, prefiguring this washing of Your Holy Baptism. Through the Baptism in the Jordan of Your beloved Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, You sanctified and instituted all waters to be a blessed flood, and a lavish washing away of sin. We pray that You would behold (name) according to Your boundless mercy and bless him with true faith by the Holy Spirit that through this saving flood all sin in him which has been inherited from Adam and which he himself has committed since would be drowned and die. Grant that he be kept safe and secure in the holy ark of the Christian Church, being separated from the multitude of unbelievers and serving Your name at all times with a fervent spirit and a joyful hope, so that, with all believers in Your promise, he would be declared worthy of eternal life, through Jesus Christ, our Lord.
Baptism by water does not save a person ..... baptism is symbolic and serves as a public declaration that one has chosen to follow the ways of the Lord. Baptism is not a requirement for salvation.Question: I always thought the Exodus cloud and the Flood waters were real baptisms via Type and Anti Type. I understand the antitype is always greater, but due to the fact that the NT mentions baptism as a type, seems to be greater than being "analogous." In otherwords, did the cloud and the flood waters convey any of the promises attached to NT baptism on OT recipients?
I am curious to know what scriptures teach this doctrine?baptism is symbolic and serves as a public declaration that one has chosen to follow the ways of the Lord.
The Greek word for symbol is symbolium. Symbolium is NOT found in the NT. Nor is it found in the LXX. So then how is Baptism symbolic of anything in the NT? Please cite chapter and verse where you get this belief from.Baptism by water does not save a person ..... baptism is symbolic
No where does Scripture state baptism is a PUBLIC DECLARATION. Nowhere. Please cite chapter and verse for this belief.serves as a public declaration that one has chosen to follow the ways of the Lord.
Oh yes it is. Baptism is not absolutely necessary for salvation but it is necessary for salvation.Baptism is not a requirement for salvation.
Again, the Greek word "symbol" is not found in the NT. Where do you get this stuff from?The flood water event can be seen as symbolic of what was to come
The Greek word for symbol is symbolium. Symbolium is NOT found in the NT. Nor is it found in the LXX. So then how is Baptism symbolic of anything in the NT? Please cite chapter and verse where you get this belief from.
No where does Scripture state baptism is a PUBLIC DECLARATION. Nowhere. Please cite chapter and verse for this belief.
This is not to say, the Sacraments are not a public testimony of a believers faith…they are! But the Baptists and American Evangelicals got the wrong Sacrament! It is the other Sacrament.
I Cor 11:26 "For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you PROCLAIM the Lord’s death until he comes."
Scripture clearly states it is in the Lord's Supper, we testify publicly to our faith. The NT doesn't speak of baptism in this way. No where does baptism equate to a public testimony of ones faith. No where.
The reason why a believers public proclamation is in the Lord's Supper and not in baptism is simple. In partaking of the Holy Communion a believer is active, and in baptism the believer is passive. No Christian baptizes himself. Never.
Receiving the Lord’s Supper is the most public act of worship we do on Sunday. We are active in receiving the Lord’s supper as Jesus says, “Take eat” and “Drink.” And yet we are passive in the its blessings.
In baptism, we are passive. We never baptize ourselves. Someone else baptizes us. Even the blessing we get in baptism are passively given to us…Romans 6 says we are united with Christ death burial and resurrection. We don’t unite ourselves to his event, God does. We are passive. God is active.
And yet even those that baptize us are passive because ministers are seen as instruments who act in the place and at the command of Christ when they administer the baptism.
However, a baptism itself (the application of water, with accompanying words) is a statement by God (through the church) to and about the person being baptized, not a statement by that person.
Oh yes it is. Baptism is not absolutely necessary for salvation but it is necessary for salvation.
Baptism is necessary to salvation because the Word of God requires it. For whatever Jesus has instituted and commanded it is to be done. God binds all Christians to be baptized, therefore baptism IS NECESSARY FOR SALVATION.
Having said that, Baptism is not absolutely necessary for salvation because the way God instituted it. Certain persons by definition are excluded from being baptized. The unborn. If were baptism were absolutely necessary for salvation, all unborn who die before birth would be excluded from salvation.
The necessity of baptism is not absolute but ordinary. The ordinary way the Christian life is lived is by being baptized. All Christians are baptized with no exceptions. This is the normal pattern. Baptism is not optional for the believer, and there is no such thing in the NT as an unbaptized believer.
True faith always results in baptism.
However, outright rejection of baptism in tantamount to rejection of God himself, thus no true faith can really be present. Outright rejection of Christ’s command is willful rejection of the Holy Spirit, since baptism promises the Holy Spirit as a gift. It is rebellion against God and his Word. This is rank unbelief.
We should always publicly teach that Baptism is necessary for salvation except in cases where Baptism is impossible to be administered.
The Christian should NEVER think that Baptism is not necessary for Christian life as the gift of the Holy Spirit is contained within.
Again, the Greek word "symbol" is not found in the NT. Where do you get this stuff from?
Are you saying baptism is OPTIONAL for a Christian?Water baptism is our outward testimony of what has happened inside of us. It is indeed an important and most solemn event ... but is not a requirement for salvation.
Agreed. Actually is it far more worse than an extreme exception. The baptism of the thief is an IMPOSSIBILITY. When was Christian baptism instituted? After the resurrection but before Jesus' accession per Matthew 28:18f. The first Christian baptisms were performed on the Day of Pentecost, some 53 days after the thief was executed. Christian baptism starting point is the day of Pentecost and not before.I think it's possible, like the thief on the cross. But it should be an extreme, uncommon exception - not a teaching we hear on Sunday.
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