A Thought on Predestination (Arminian View)

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DeaconDean

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  1. Predestined means personal not just categorical. And it is for whom He foreknew, not what he foreknew!

    29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

  2. John 6
    36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
    37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
    64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

    65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
God had predestined to offer redemption to the Jews and then the Gentiles ; however, redemption is conditional upon personal repentance.

The verse that you quoted "no one can come to me unless granted by God" does not sufficiently means individual predestination because it is just an isolated verse. Case in point: The Catholics believe that Mary is the mother of god who intercedes for their prayers based on couple of verses:

(1) John 19:26,27: When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to her, “Woman, here is your son,” and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.
(2) Mary asked Jesus to turn water into wine at the wedding [John 2], and Jesus did so.

Based on a few verses or event, Catholics exulted Mary to be the intercessor for their prayers. Now, does the Scripture talk about Mary as intercessor SUBSTANTIALLY?

Note: I am not against Catholics, I am just explaining a point.

Consider these 3 verses:

Acts 16:31 -- And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household”

Romans 10:9 -- because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved

John 3:16: For God so love the world that He sent His only begotten Son, that whoever believe in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Notice that these 3 verses did NOT say that we have to repent in order to be saved. Is belief without repentance sufficient? If someone believes that Jesus is the Son of God who was resurrected and seated at God's right hand now, does it mean he is redeemed -- even if he doesn't repent? If he ignore. context, he can insist he is correct.

About the words , being called by God [Jude], "chosen people" or "Chosen by God" [Peter] . During biblical times, people wouldn't say that they chose to believe God; instead they said that God chose them or they are being called. It was a humble way of speaking. Back then, people were much more subservient to God, and it would be arrogant or inappropriate for them to say they chose Him. it does not mean that God called Jason or Susan to be saved ie NOT individual predestination. As time change, languages change too; today, we don't speak this way anymore. We tend to misinterpret words (such as chosen and predestined) at surface level or literally, which contribute to the confusion that God literally handpick people.





[/QUOTE]

Predestinated, in the New Testament, is the goal, not the path.

Romans 8:28-29 goes like this:
  1. Called/elected (8:29)
  2. Foreknown (8:29)
  3. Predestinated (8:29)
Verse 28 shows us, people were called/elected first, and because they were, God foreknew them, and because He foreknew them, they were predestinated.

Your view is scripture here is wrong. Period.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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twin1954

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The gospel was preached to Jews first; and after Peter 's vision, the Gentiles were included. Paul and Peter meant used the word "predestine" to mean that God had predestined to reach out to the Jews and then the Gentiles. Predestination is just a word, it is the context that matters.

In earlier post, I have explained that chosen. or called by God are words of humility. Back then, they humbly said that God called or chose them, they don't say they chose to believe in Him.

In the New Testament, there are only three verses that use the word for predestination. Only three verses is NOT sufficient to build a case of individual predestination. A handful of verses with the word "chosen" or "called" does not add up to individual predestination either. None of the apostles wrote substantially about individual predestination. Jesus never preached that God choose who to redeem on individual basis. It is strange. and baffling to see how people disregard context. and (mis)interpret a word.
the problem with your view is that every time the word is used it is in reference to people never things. Predestination has to do with destiny and it clearly involves individual people. You are the one who misinterprets the word.

Oh, and this is the ask a Calvinist forum the debate a Calvinist forum is further down the page.
 
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DeaconDean

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Acts 16:31 -- And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household”

Romans 10:9 -- because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved

John 3:16: For God so love the world that He sent His only begotten Son, that whoever believe in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Notice that these 3 verses did NOT say that we have to repent in order to be saved. Is belief without repentance sufficient? If someone believes that Jesus is the Son of God who was resurrected and seated at God's right hand now, does it mean he is redeemed -- even if he doesn't repent? If he ignore. context, he can insist he is correct.

About the words , being called by God [Jude], "chosen people" or "Chosen by God" [Peter] . During biblical times, people wouldn't say that they chose to believe God; instead they said that God chose them or they are being called. It was a humble way of speaking. Back then, people were much more subservient to God, and it would be arrogant or inappropriate for them to say they chose Him. it does not mean that God called Jason or Susan to be saved ie NOT individual predestination. As time change, languages change too; today, we don't speak this way anymore. We tend to misinterpret words (such as chosen and predestined) at surface level or literally, which contribute to the confusion that God literally handpick people.

Lets address this shall we?

John Gill addresses Acts 16:31:

"Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
And they said, believe in the Lord Jesus Christ,.... Not with a bare historical faith, as only to believe that he was the Son of God, and the Messiah, and that he was come in the flesh, and had suffered, and died, and rose again, and was now in heaven at the right hand of God, and would come again to judge both quick and dead, for there may be such a faith and no salvation; but so as to look unto him alone for life and salvation, to rely upon him, and trust in him; to commit himself, and the care of his immortal soul unto him, and to expect peace, pardon, righteousness, and eternal life from him; the answer is much the same our Lord returned to the Jews, when they asked, though not with the same affection and sincerity as this man, what they must do to work the works of God, John 6:28.

And thou shalt be saved; from sin, and all its miserable effects and consequences; from the curses of the law, from the power of Satan, from the evil of the world, from the wrath of God, hell and damnation: this is to be understood of a spiritual and eternal salvation; for it is said, after that the jailer was inquiring about it, being terrified in his conscience with a sense of sin and wrath; and between believing in Christ, and being saved with an everlasting salvation, there is a strict and inseparable connection, Mark 16:16 though not faith, but Christ is the cause and author of salvation; faith spies salvation in Christ, goes to him for it, receives it from him, and believes unto it:

and thy house; or family, provided they believe in Christ also, as they did, Acts 16:34 or otherwise there can be no salvation, for he that believeth not shall be damned."

While it is not specifically said, it is implied because Gill mentions: "but so as to look unto him alone for life and salvation, to rely upon him, and trust in him; to commit himself, and the care of his immortal soul unto him, and to expect peace, pardon, righteousness, and eternal life from him;". Many people are fooled because they believe, but haven't repented.

John the Baptist preached repentance.

Jesus preached repentance.

Without repentance, there is no salvation.

In Romans 10:9, although it is a simple version, you must also remember, to whom Paul was addressing. Roman "Christians", not Roman unbelievers.

John Gill also comments:

"Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,.... That is, if a man shall make a good, sincere, and hearty confession to God, before the church and people of God, and before the world, that Christ is his Lord and Saviour, whom he desires to serve, and to be saved by; and this as arising from a comfortable experience of the grace of God in his soul, and from a true faith in Christ in his heart, wherefore it follows,

and shall believe in thine heart, that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved; for this article of Christ's resurrection includes the several other articles of faith: it supposes his death, and that supposes his life, and the obedience of it; and his life implies his being here on earth, and that his coming down from heaven to do the will of his Father; and this is the rather mentioned, which is here ascribed to God the Father, though not to the exclusion of the Son and Spirit, because that Christ is risen again for our justification, with which true faith is principally concerned; for such a faith is intended, not which lies in a mere assent to the truth of this, or any other article of the Christian religion; but which is concerned with Christ for righteousness, life, and glory; and with such a faith salvation is certainly and inseparably connected."

John 3:16 is one of the most beautiful verses in the scriptures, and also one of the most misused.

If taken "as is" this verse can be misunderstood as a call for "universalism". And this is most often seen and taken by those of the Arminian faith in the word "whosoever". And that is a fact.

There are several things that also must be considered. This was said before the Holy Spirit arrived to continue Christ's work. If it means what you want it to mean, Jesus was wrong in His rebuke of the Pharisees, Sadduces, Scribes, and lawyers.

What did Jesus say to them?

In their clinging tot he scriptures, Jesus rebuked them saying:

"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." -Jn. 5:39-40 (KJV)

They would not renounce their reliance on the Torah, to have faith in Him.

"Fundamentally, repentance involves renouncing a former way of life in favor of a new way of life." -David Platt

Jesus told His disciples:

"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you," -Jn. 15:16 (KJV)

The same principle applies to us.

We don't choose God, left to our own devices, we'd stay in sin. But God chose us, called us. This principle is very clearly seen in Acts 13:48.

Sorry, its just not the way you want it to be.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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roman2819

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God had predestined to offer redemption to the Jews and then the Gentiles ; however, redemption is conditional upon personal repentance.

The verse that you quoted "no one can come to me unless granted by God" does not sufficiently means individual predestination because it is just an isolated verse. Case in point: The Catholics believe that Mary is the mother of god who intercedes for their prayers based on couple of verses:

(1) John 19:26,27: When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to her, “Woman, here is your son,” and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.
(2) Mary asked Jesus to turn water into wine at the wedding [John 2], and Jesus did so.

Based on a few verses or event, Catholics exulted Mary to be the intercessor for their prayers. Now, does the Scripture talk about Mary as intercessor SUBSTANTIALLY?

Note: I am not against Catholics, I am just explaining a point.

Consider these 3 verses:

Acts 16:31 -- And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household”

Romans 10:9 -- because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved

John 3:16: For God so love the world that He sent His only begotten Son, that whoever believe in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Notice that these 3 verses did NOT say that we have to repent in order to be saved. Is belief without repentance sufficient? If someone believes that Jesus is the Son of God who was resurrected and seated at God's right hand now, does it mean he is redeemed -- even if he doesn't repent? If he ignore. context, he can insist he is correct.

About the words , being called by God [Jude], "chosen people" or "Chosen by God" [Peter] . During biblical times, people wouldn't say that they chose to believe God; instead they said that God chose them or they are being called. It was a humble way of speaking. Back then, people were much more subservient to God, and it would be arrogant or inappropriate for them to say they chose Him. it does not mean that God called Jason or Susan to be saved ie NOT individual predestination. As time change, languages change too; today, we don't speak this way anymore. We tend to misinterpret words (such as chosen and predestined) at surface level or literally, which contribute to the confusion that God literally handpick people.






Predestinated, in the New Testament, is the goal, not the path.

Romans 8:28-29 goes like this:
  1. Called/elected (8:29)
  2. Foreknown (8:29)
  3. Predestinated (8:29)
Verse 28 shows us, people were called/elected first, and because they were, God foreknew them, and because He foreknew them, they were predestinated.

Your view is scripture here is wrong. Period.

God Bless

Till all are one.[/QUOTE]

Ephesians 2:

2:11 Therefore, remember that you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” ... you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and without God in the world. ... But now in Christ Jesus ...
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two GROUPS and has destroyed the barrier... by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations [laws for the Jews]. His purpose was to create in himself a new humanity out of the two ... and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross
.

Who was letter of Ephesians intended for? It was for Gentiles [Eph 2:11].

Verse 14: By His blood and atonement, Christ united TWO GROUPS of people (Jews and Gentiles) to become one.

This is what Paul and Peter referred to as they spoke of predestination: God predestined to offer redemption to the Jews and then the Gentiles, so there is finally the unity of faith.

Was Paul thinking of "individual predestination' when he said predestine? Clearly No.

If you are motivated to find the truth, try reading the letter of Ephesians 5 or 6 times, and you will see what the apostles were saying. Instead of focusing on words such as "predestine you," try to read the entire letter a few times and appreciate what was on Paul's mind as he explained what God planned for two groups of people, not individuals.

Otherwise, lets just agree to disagree.
 
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Predestinated, in the New Testament, is the goal, not the path.

Romans 8:28-29 goes like this:
  1. Called/elected (8:29)
  2. Foreknown (8:29)
  3. Predestinated (8:29)
Verse 28 shows us, people were called/elected first, and because they were, God foreknew them, and because He foreknew them, they were predestinated.

Your view is scripture here is wrong. Period.

You seem to be assuming that God does not have knowledge of His calling, election, and predestining before the foundation of the world, from all eternity. For God to have "foreknown" implies His omniscience, which necessitates knowledge of calling, electing, and predestining long before the events unfold in history. Change the order of those all you like, but the end result is the same so far as God is concerned. Our experience of those in history may take on a different order, because when it comes to the omniscience of God, and His foreknowing, what on earth does God not foreknow?
 
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DeaconDean

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In my opinion the only way to avoid having God in some sense responsible for damnation is to reject omnipotence.

Did you know, perhaps I'm wrong though, but Augustine was the first to recognize "double predestination" (reprobation)?

Although it wasn't in as many words.

"Augustine maintained is an internal operation of God upon those whom He designs to save, imparting not only the power, but also the will to do good. The fact that some are saved and some are lost he attributed to the will of God. Hence his doctrines on unconditional predestination, of particular redemption, and of special and irresistible grace. Reprobation he granted, was based upon foreseen guilt, but apparently unconscious of the inconsistency, he denied the same applicability to election. In 529, the system of Augustine was established as church doctrine by the Council of Arausio (Orange).

Cyclopaedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, Volume 8, By John McClintock, James Strong, New York, Harper and Brothers Publishers, Franklin Square, 1879, Predestination, p. 499

Augustine, as shown, believed in some form of "double predestination" some 1100 years prior to Calvin.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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This thread "A thought on Arminism" is deemed suitable under "Ask a Calvinist" forum, hence it is exists here, with many people giving their opinions. That answers your last request.

Early last month, I said "let us agree to disagree", and i maintain radio silence when you answer -- I didn't see any use to discuss further. But last week, you chose to answer when I wasn't replying to you, instead I was clarifying with Apologetic_Warrior. Now you know that my silence last month was golden.

U claimed that I, "...in a tactic to divert from the issue at hand ... inject "election", "foreknowledge", and "foreordination" into the process". Hello, are you mixing your opinion with mine?

Your view, "Called/elected-predestined-foreknew" which seemed to mean that God first called those He choose to save, through a process call predestination, and only at the end he had foreknowledge whether they will believe. Your contradictions is summed up by these words, "If you cannot describe something simply, then you really do not understand it."

Be that as it may, irregardless, if I post, and you respond to it, then your debating the answers given. That by definition, is debating.

Your view, "Called/elected-predestined-foreknew" which seemed to mean that God first called those He choose to save, through a process call predestination, and only at the end he had foreknowledge whether they will believe. Your contradictions is summed up by these words, "If you cannot describe something simply, then you really do not understand it."

And for the last time, I will define it once again for you:

The Greek word "oti" (hot-ee) is a conjunction.

"a word used to connect clauses or sentences or to coordinate words in the same clause (e.g., and, but, if )."

ὅτι,c \{hot'-ee}

Source

Notice the BIG c. (Stands for "conjunction")

What is the last phrase of verse 28?

"to them who are the called according to his purpose."

English grammar and Greek grammar are nearly 100% identical.

"ὅτι" is a conjunction that links/joins the last clause of vs. 28 with the first clause of vs. 29.

"For whom he did foreknow," vs. 29.

God chose/elected/call us first, and because so, he "foreknew" us. Had intimate knowledge of us. And because of all that, the end result was He "set" the goal of us "to be predestined to the image of the Son.

That is basic English, and Greek grammar. And the sad point...

You chose to ignore it.

And, no matter what you say, there is absolutely nothing, nothing you can say or do to change the fact. PERIOD!

Any further responses on you part will be considered "debating".

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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