A Thought on Predestination (Arminian View)

[roman2819]

Again, if you wish, I can supply the Greek definition for the Greek word "predestinate".
....

Like I said, read what Christians (Jew and Gentile) are "predestinated" to!

Adoption, inheritance, and conformity.

Till all are one.

Although I mentioned earlier that God had predestined or pre-planned to offer redemption to Gentiles, I did not mean to exclude the Jews. It is scriptural and correct to say that God had predestined to offer redemption to both people. However, this still does NOT mean individual predestination.

Note: When Scriptures say God predestined Jews or Gentiles, it means that he offered them redemption. The Bible does not used the words "offer them redemption", instead it just says they are chosen. But this does not mean people are saved right away. In context, it means they were offered but they had to decide whether to believe and repent.

 

[DeaconDean]

"

Although I mentioned earlier that God had predestined or pre-planned to offer redemption to Gentiles, I did not mean to exclude the Jews. It is scriptural and correct to say that God had predestined to offer redemption to both people. However, this still does NOT mean individual predestination.

Note: When Scriptures say God predestined Jews or Gentiles, it means that he offered them redemption. The Bible does not used the words "offer them redemption", instead it just says redeemed. But it does not mean people are saved right away. In context, it means they were offered but they had to decide whether to believe and repent.

There are no verses that say God "predestined or pre-planned to offer redemption to Gentiles".

Election and foreordination are a different matter.

Predestination is the end result. Please read what Christians are "predestinated" to.

Arminian theology spouts the same rhetoric Catholicism does.

In the New Testament, there are only three verses that use the word for predestinate.

1. "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," -Eph 1:5 (KJV) (resulting in adoption)
2. "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:" -Eph. 1:11 (KJV) (resulting in an inheritance)
3. "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." -Rom. 8:29 (KJV) (resulting in our conformity to the image of the Son)

Nowhere in these three verses does it say: "God had predestined or pre-planned to offer redemption to Gentiles".

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Seems that many these days that hold to the Armenian view also believe in the sinner's prayer?
M-Bob

 

[DeaconDean]

Seems that many these days that hold to the Armenian view also believe in the sinner's prayer?
M-Bob

As I have said many times before and after reading James Arminius" theology myself, it is still an "I" theology.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

it is still an "I" theology.

If I thought that ((I)) had something to do with my salvation it seems that would tarnish it in some kind of a way.

Not total trust with the one I see in the mirror.

Total trust only in Jesus.

M-Bob

 

[sdowney717]

Seems that many these days that hold to the Armenian view also believe in the sinner's prayer?
M-Bob

To be enabled to pray the sinners prayer, you are already born again of God.
Salvation is of the lord in every possible way, not of ourselves being the gift of God.
BibleGateway - : Salvation is of the lord

 

[Mountainmanbob]

To be enabled to pray the sinners prayer, you are already born again of God.

The sinner's prayer is man's invention (a new one at that) and I find it nowhere in the Bible.
M-Bob

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

The sinner's prayer is man's invention (a new one at that) and I find it nowhere in the Bible.
M-Bob

It's more of an invention of evangelicalism of the past oh...century or so I would venture to guess. I think the intention is good, with the desire to bring sinners to repentance and faith in Christ, but there is no creedal formulation of it (an authoritative biblical statement) and has been used and abused loosely to overstate with underlying unbibical theology behind it. I think it may do more harm than good, undermining the Spirit's call and work in regeneration, putting the emphasis on man's response, rather than on the work of God in salvation.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

To be enabled to pray the sinners prayer, you are already born again of God. Salvation is of the lord in every possible way, not of ourselves being the gift of God. BibleGateway - : Salvation is of the lord

 

[roman2819]

"

There are no verses that say God "predestined or pre-planned to offer redemption to Gentiles".

Election and foreordination are a different matter.

In the New Testament, there are only three verses that use the word for predestinate.

1. "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," -Eph 1:5 (KJV) (resulting in adoption)
2. "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:" -Eph. 1:11 (KJV) (resulting in an inheritance)
3. "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." -Rom. 8:29 (KJV) (resulting in our conformity to the image of the Son)

Nowhere in these three verses does it say: "God had predestined or pre-planned to offer redemption to Gentiles".

God Bless

Till all are one.

Firstly, your comment "In the New Testament, there are only three verses that use the word for predestinate" . Yes, only three verses or a handful of verses here and there is NOT sufficient to build a case of predestination. If Paul or apostles had substantially written about individual predestination, or if Jesus had said it during His ministry, then there would be more reasons to believe in individual predestination. But they didn't.

Case in point: The catholics believe that Mary is the mother of god who intercedes for their prayers based on couple of verses:

John 19:26,27: When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to her, “Woman, here is your son,” and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.

Mary asked Jesus to turn water into wine at the wedding [John 2], and Jesus did so.

Based on a few verses or event, Catholics exulted Mary to be their intercessor. But does the Scripture talk about Mary as intercessor substantially?

Note: I am not against Catholics, I am just explaining a point.

Regarding "Nowhere in these three verses does it say: "God had predestined or pre-planned to offer redemption to Gentiles".

Interpreting Scriptures is not about seeing words only. Instead we have to look at events and context. To illustrate the point, consider these three verses:

Acts 16:31 -- And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household”
Romans 10:9 -- because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved
John 3:16: For God so love the world that He sent His only begotten Son, that whoever believe in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Notice that these 3 verses did NOT say that we have to repent in order to be saved. Does this mean that belief without repentance is sufficient? If someone says that he believes that Jesus existed, without repent of sins, is he redeemed? Or if he believes that Jesus is the Son of God, resurrected and seated at God's right hand now, does it mean he is redeemed even if he doesn't repent? If he ignore the greater context of Scriptures, and focus on words, he can insist that he is correct.

My point is this: It is not about reading words or verses without considering context. If we ignore context, which many people do when reading Scripture then we can say anything, everything, whatever we want. I am not criticizing the Catholics, but they believed that Mary is the mother of God based on a key verse

Although Romans 8:29 does not say explicitly say that God predestined to offer redemption to the Gentiles, however, both biblical events and other verses (Ephesians 1:12, 13) can guide us to interpret correctly. Ephesians 1:12,13 was talking about real events, that Jews were the first to believe in God, while Gentiles had been excluded all along (since Abraham's or David's time) until recently when the apostles preached to the Gentiles? The change was earth moving indeed, a major change at that time.

 

[DeaconDean]

Interpreting Scriptures is not about seeing words only. Instead we have to look at events and context.

How can you say this, and then say what you say when it is completely out of context?

Predestination is always spoken of in the scriptures after the point of salvation, and tells us what the "goal" is. Period!

"As the English verb suggests, this word (proorizo) simply means to direct a person to a particular goal.

Paul spells out the goal: “to be conformed to the likeness of his Son.”

The last stage of Christian existence is to be “conformed” to Christ’s own glorious body (see Phil. 3:21). God enters into relationship with us so that we may attain that goal."

Source

See also: "The NIV Application Commentary, Romans, Douglas Moo, Romans 8:18-30, God's Provision for Our Time of Waiting

"(6) Verse 29 indicates God’s immediate purpose for us. God’s purpose for choosing us and the goal of the program He has predestined is our conformity to the image of Jesus Christ: “to be conformed to the image of His Son.” This goal is also stated in Paul’s Epistle to the Ephesians:

And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature of which belongs to the fulness of Christ (Ephesians 4:11-13).

Source

Shall I go on?

Context/events?

You want to take the word completely out of context, and use it to justify your beliefs.

I admit, Paul uses the word 3x in the New Testament, but it is always, always used "in context" to a certain group of people who were already saved!

It's never used in the future tense. Given its used here, 3rd person, singular, aor. act, indic. the rule of Greek is:

"Mark it down, as its name suggests, the kind of action indicated by the aorist tense is undefined. Inasmuch as there is no definition of the kind of action, the emphasis is upon the fact of the action rather than the duration of the action. In the indicative mood, the significance is that it happened. Whether it happened over a period of time or in an instant is not indicated."

Source

In Romans 8:29 all it signifies is that a certain point in time, you will be "conformed to the image of the Son".

In Eph. 1:5, the usage in the past tense saying that after the point of salvation you were "adopted".

In Eph. 1:11, the usage is in the past tense, as a group, they were granted an "inheritance" after the point of salvation.

John Gill comments:

"The predestination of these persons to be conformed to the image of Christ, is not a fore-appointment of them to be like him in sufferings: for though the saints are appointed unto sufferings, and sufferings or afflictions are appointed them; and though there is some likeness between Christ the head and the members of his body in suffering; yet this cannot be intended here: since the image of Christ, to which they are predestinated to be conformed, always designs something great and glorious, and not mean and abject; it is the image of the heavenly, in opposition to the image of the earthly; and is no other than the glory of the Lord, into which the saints are changed from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord (1 Cor. 15:47; 2 Cor. 3:18). Besides, Christ is never said to be the first-born with respect to afflictions, but with respect to preeminence, honor, and glory (see Ps. 89:28; Col. 1:18; Rev. 1:5). This conformity to the image of Christ, to which they are predestinated who are loved by God, seems rather to be a spiritual likeness to Christ, which is begun in this world upon believers, and will be finished in the other; when they shall he like him both in soul and body, as perfectly as they will be capable of; when the great ends of predestinating grace will be fully answered upon them; or rather, particularly, this conformity is to be understood of a likeness to the filiation of Christ, or a likeness to the image of Christ as the Son of God; for though the saints are not in the same class of sonship with Christ, yet their, sonship bears some resemblance to his; as he is the Son of God by nature, they are the sons of God by grace; as he is the dear Son of God, they are the dear children of God; as he is the first-born among many brethren, they are the first-born with respect to the angels; and as he has an inheritance, being heir of all things, so have they, being heirs of God,. And joint-heirs with Christ;. which likeness of sonship will more fully appear hereafter; for though now are we the sons of God, it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is (1 John 3:2). This sense of the words is strengthened by a parallel place (Eph. 1:5), Having predestinated us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. Besides, it is owned,[4] that "according to the received interpretation of the ancient Fathers, the import of these words is this; that whom God foreknew, he predetermined to render conformable to the image of his Son, that is, to be like him in glory:" or as in another place[5] "he predestinated, or fore-appointed them to be conformed to the image of his Son, their elder brother; that is, to be sons of God and joint-heirs with Christ; and the[6] author I am concerned with, after he had considered the text in every light: "conceives the sense of it to be this; those whom he hath so foreknown as to make them his elect, and peculiar people; for them he hath designed the choicest blessings, even the adoption of sons, and their being co-heirs with Christ."

[4] Whitby, p. 63; ed. 2.62.

[5] Ibid. p. 448; ed. 2.436.

[6] Ibid. p. 449; ed. 2.437."

The Cause of God and Truth, John Gill, Part 2, Chapter 2, Of Election, Section 8, Romans 8:29,30

Looking at the usage, the context, and to whom Paul was addressing, your theology falls apart.

Sorry.

Now if you want to talk "election", that is a whole different matter. That is spoken of throughout scripture. But as far as "predestinate" is concerned, context demands that you address the only scriptures that use the word and there, your limited to only 3 instances.

Sorry.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

There are three basic rules of "biblical hermanutics":

"1. Identify the kind of literature your text is for insight into its meaning."

That is easy, Paul was addressing a Gentile audience in Rome and Ephesus.

"2. Consider the context of the passage for a better understanding of its meaning."

That is another easy one.

"Paul’s letter to the Romans is best known for its vision of God’s gracious actions toward humanity through the cross and resurrection of Christ. “It is the power of God for salvation to everyone who has faith” (Rom. 1:16). There is something deeply wrong with us individually, and with the world as a whole, from which we need to be saved, and Romans tells us how God is saving us from it."

Source

"3. Read the text for its plain and obvious meaning."

That is the best rule!

Notice well, what I said.

In each and every occurrence, "predestinate" always follows and never precedes the point of salvation!

Predestinate in the New Testament, always sets the goal, never the course.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[roman2819]

How can you say this, and then say what you say when it is completely out of context?

Predestination is always spoken of in the scriptures after the point of salvation, and tells us what the "goal" is. Period!

"As the English verb suggests, this word (proorizo) simply means to direct a person to a particular goal.

Paul spells out the goal: “to be conformed to the likeness of his Son.”

The last stage of Christian existence is to be “conformed” to Christ’s own glorious body (see Phil. 3:21). God enters into relationship with us so that we may attain that goal."

Source

See also: "The NIV Application Commentary, Romans, Douglas Moo, Romans 8:18-30, God's Provision for Our Time of Waiting

"(6) Verse 29 indicates God’s immediate purpose for us. God’s purpose for choosing us and the goal of the program He has predestined is our conformity to the image of Jesus Christ: “to be conformed to the image of His Son.” This goal is also stated in Paul’s Epistle to the Ephesians:

And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature of which belongs to the fulness of Christ (Ephesians 4:11-13).

Source

Shall I go on?

Context/events?

You want to take the word completely out of context, and use it to justify your beliefs.

I admit, Paul uses the word 3x in the New Testament, but it is always, always used "in context" to a certain group of people who were already saved!

It's never used in the future tense. Given its used here, 3rd person, singular, aor. act, indic. the rule of Greek is:

"Mark it down, as its name suggests, the kind of action indicated by the aorist tense is undefined. Inasmuch as there is no definition of the kind of action, the emphasis is upon the fact of the action rather than the duration of the action. In the indicative mood, the significance is that it happened. Whether it happened over a period of time or in an instant is not indicated."

Source

In Romans 8:29 all it signifies is that a certain point in time, you will be "conformed to the image of the Son".

In Eph. 1:5, the usage in the past tense saying that after the point of salvation you were "adopted".

In Eph. 1:11, the usage is in the past tense, as a group, they were granted an "inheritance" after the point of salvation.

John Gill comments:

"The predestination of these persons to be conformed to the image of Christ, is not a fore-appointment of them to be like him in sufferings: for though the saints are appointed unto sufferings, and sufferings or afflictions are appointed them; and though there is some likeness between Christ the head and the members of his body in suffering; yet this cannot be intended here: since the image of Christ, to which they are predestinated to be conformed, always designs something great and glorious, and not mean and abject; it is the image of the heavenly, in opposition to the image of the earthly; and is no other than the glory of the Lord, into which the saints are changed from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord (1 Cor. 15:47; 2 Cor. 3:18). Besides, Christ is never said to be the first-born with respect to afflictions, but with respect to preeminence, honor, and glory (see Ps. 89:28; Col. 1:18; Rev. 1:5). This conformity to the image of Christ, to which they are predestinated who are loved by God, seems rather to be a spiritual likeness to Christ, which is begun in this world upon believers, and will be finished in the other; when they shall he like him both in soul and body, as perfectly as they will be capable of; when the great ends of predestinating grace will be fully answered upon them; or rather, particularly, this conformity is to be understood of a likeness to the filiation of Christ, or a likeness to the image of Christ as the Son of God; for though the saints are not in the same class of sonship with Christ, yet their, sonship bears some resemblance to his; as he is the Son of God by nature, they are the sons of God by grace; as he is the dear Son of God, they are the dear children of God; as he is the first-born among many brethren, they are the first-born with respect to the angels; and as he has an inheritance, being heir of all things, so have they, being heirs of God,. And joint-heirs with Christ;. which likeness of sonship will more fully appear hereafter; for though now are we the sons of God, it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is (1 John 3:2). This sense of the words is strengthened by a parallel place (Eph. 1:5), Having predestinated us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. Besides, it is owned,[4] that "according to the received interpretation of the ancient Fathers, the import of these words is this; that whom God foreknew, he predetermined to render conformable to the image of his Son, that is, to be like him in glory:" or as in another place[5] "he predestinated, or fore-appointed them to be conformed to the image of his Son, their elder brother; that is, to be sons of God and joint-heirs with Christ; and the[6] author I am concerned with, after he had considered the text in every light: "conceives the sense of it to be this; those whom he hath so foreknown as to make them his elect, and peculiar people; for them he hath designed the choicest blessings, even the adoption of sons, and their being co-heirs with Christ."

[4] Whitby, p. 63; ed. 2.62.

[5] Ibid. p. 448; ed. 2.436.

[6] Ibid. p. 449; ed. 2.437."

The Cause of God and Truth, John Gill, Part 2, Chapter 2, Of Election, Section 8, Romans 8:29,30

Looking at the usage, the context, and to whom Paul was addressing, your theology falls apart.

Sorry.

Now if you want to talk "election", that is a whole different matter. That is spoken of throughout scripture. But as far as "predestinate" is concerned, context demands that you address the only scriptures that use the word and there, your limited to only 3 instances.

Sorry.

God Bless

Till all are one.

In the past texts, you said that predestination means God choose each person to be saved.
Now, in your above text, you appear to be saying that (1) predestination refers to the changes after repentance, not to individual salvation (2) God elect individuals to be saved, then predestined them to be conformed to His image.

God's Elect does not mean that God choose individuals. During biblical times, Jews or Christians don't say that they choose to believe in God; instead they said God chose them or elect them. Back them, people were more reverent toward God, it would sound inappropriate to say they chose Him. They said they are chosen to mean that it is a privilege to be God's people, it is a humble way of speaking, not literal.

Notice that Peter or Paul would say " you are a chosen people'; the apostles never said each of you are chosen. By saying Jews and Gentiles were chosen, it means that God offered redemption to both people, Jews + Gentiles - which together means everyone. Apostles did not say "offer redemption" -- they don't use many words - but they use "chosen". We have to understand what they mean in context.

Finally, if we understand context, we don't need to drill "deeply" into past tense and future tenses, or separate elect from predestine.

To appreciate context, take a Letter or book and read it 5 or 6 times without trying to analyse yet. Letter of Ephesians is a good one to start because it is not difficult. Romans is more doctrinal and heavy duty. Reading it 5 times may take you 2 weeks or 2 months, but it will enable you to appreciate context first. With context, we see the verses as part of something more. Problem with many people is being too quick to analyse verses , focusing on words but ignoring context.

 

[DeaconDean]

In the past texts, you said that predestination means God choose each person to be saved.
Now, in your above text, you appear to be saying that (1) predestination refers to the changes after repentance, not to individual salvation (2) God elect individuals to be saved, then predestined them to be conformed to His image.

God's Elect does not mean that God choose individuals. During biblical times, Jews or Christians don't say that they choose to believe in God; instead they said God chose them or elect them. Back them, people were more reverent toward God, it would sound inappropriate to say they chose Him. They said they are chosen to mean that it is a privilege to be God's people, it is a humble way of speaking, not literal.

Notice that Peter or Paul would say " you are a chosen people'; the apostles never said each of you are chosen. By saying Jews and Gentiles were chosen, it means that God offered redemption to both people, Jews + Gentiles - which together means everyone. Apostles did not say "offer redemption" -- they don't use many words - but they use "chosen". We have to understand what they mean in context.

Finally, if we understand context, we don't need to drill "deeply" into past tense and future tenses, or separate elect from predestine.

To appreciate context, take a Letter or book and read it 5 or 6 times without trying to analyse yet. Letter of Ephesians is a good one to start because it is not difficult. Romans is more doctrinal and heavy duty. Reading it 5 times may take you 2 weeks or 2 months, but it will enable you to appreciate context first. With context, we see the verses as part of something more. Problem with many people is being too quick to analyse verses , focusing on words but ignoring context.

You should really read and try to understand what Calvinism is about.

Election, foreknowledge, and predestination are so interlinked, that is nearly impossible to separate.

Just looking at Romans 8:28-29, we this principle to its fullest meaning.

There is also one thing you missed in the post above.

You reference Ephesians. And by the same token, you mention Peter.

It seems, Peter and Paul were together at a town called Galatia. This is where Peter experienced Paul's rebuke for being a hypocrite.

And, I want to ask you if you know who was being addressed by Paul in Ephesus?

And again, to whom was Paul addressing in his epistle to the Romans?

That should answer your accusations.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[roman2819]

You should really read and try to understand what Calvinism is about.

Election, foreknowledge, and predestination are so interlinked, that is nearly impossible to separate.

Just looking at Romans 8:28-29, we this principle to its fullest meaning.

There is also one thing you missed in the post above.

You reference Ephesians. And by the same token, you mention Peter.

It seems, Peter and Paul were together at a town called Galatia. This is where Peter experienced Paul's rebuke for being a hypocrite.

And, I want to ask you if you know who was being addressed by Paul in Ephesus?

And again, to whom was Paul addressing in his epistle to the Romans?

That should answer your accusations.

God Bless

Till all are one.

No accusations. Just explaining different views. Am aware of Calvinism, and I don't agree with any doctrine that tries too hard to explain individual predestination because it is unbiblical.

By reading Ephesians or Romans (including Roman 8:28,29) several times over a few weeks or months, we will that Paul was explaining how God predestined the Jews and then the Gentiles, he could not have suddenly veer off to speak of individual predestinan. No way he would do that.

If seen in context, Everything can be neatly connected and explained. For example, consider this>>

Many people mistaken that "even as God chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us... " [Ephesians 1:4] means God already choose on individual basis. But in context, it really mean that even from the very beginning, God already knew He was going to choose both Jews and Gentiles (offer them redemption). Back then, many Jewish believers were resentful towards Gentiles, they said Gentiles should observe Jewish customs, that God reached out to the Gentiles because Israel rejected gospel ie meaning Gentiles were inferior or second-class.

To refute such distortions, Paul explained that even from the beginning, God had already planned for both Jews and Gentile: That it started way back, way way back -- even before that foundation of the world. This verse was intended to EMPHASIZE that even as far back as we can imagine, as early as we can think of, even before the beginning of time .. "He choose us before the foundation of the earth is not factual statement, these are words of emphasis to annul any argument that God just decided to choose the Gentiles recently or suddenly.

It is contextual interpretation that provides clarity, and even enable us to appreciate the depth and richness of the Scripture.

 

[sdowney717]

No accusations. Just explaining different views. Am aware of Calvinism, and I don't agree with any doctrine that tries too hard to explain individual predestination because it is unbiblical.

By reading Ephesians or Romans (including Roman 8:28,29) several times over a few weeks or months, we will that Paul was explaining how God predestined the Jews and then the Gentiles, he could not have suddenly veer off to speak of individual predestinan. No way he would do that.

If seen in context, Everything can be neatly connected and explained. For example, consider this>>

Many people mistaken that "even as God chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us... " [Ephesians 1:4] means God already choose on individual basis. But in context, it really mean that even from the very beginning, God already knew He was going to choose both Jews and Gentiles (offer them redemption). Back then, many Jewish believers were resentful towards Gentiles, they said Gentiles should observe Jewish customs, that God reached out to the Gentiles because Israel rejected gospel ie meaning Gentiles were inferior or second-class.

To refute such distortions, Paul explained that even from the beginning, God had already planned for both Jews and Gentile: That it started way back, way way back -- even before that foundation of the world. This verse was intended to EMPHASIZE that even as far back as we can imagine, as early as we can think of, even before the beginning of time .. "He choose us before the foundation of the earth is not factual statement, these are words of emphasis to annul any argument that God just decided to choose the Gentiles recently or suddenly.

It is contextual interpretation that provides clarity, and even enable us to appreciate the depth and richness of the Scripture.

According to your view, then God chooses everybody, all jews and all gentiles.
Are you a universalist? Some of them actually believe God will ultimately save all created beings including Satan. Perhaps after a long time in purgatorial suffering.

Jude tells us we in His church are 'the called', who are sanctified, preserved in Jesus Christ.
Jude New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting to the Called
1 Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James,

To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:

2 Mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you.

 

[sdowney717]

1 Peter 1 New International Version (NIV)
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

I just don't see anyway around concluding that God has individually chosen His elect to be sprinkled with Christ's blood.
And that God knew His elect ones beforehand by His foreknowing of them and those are the ones He chose to be saved.

 

[roman2819]

According to your view, then God chooses everybody, all jews and all gentiles.
Are you a universalist? Some of them actually believe God will ultimately save all created beings including Satan. Perhaps after a long time in purgatorial suffering.

Jude tells us we in His church are 'the called', who are sanctified, preserved in Jesus Christ.
Jude New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting to the Called
1 Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James,

To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:

2 Mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you.

1. Predestined means personal not just categorical. And it is for whom He foreknew, not what he foreknew!
   
   29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
2. 
   
3. John 6
   36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
   37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
   64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
   
   65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” [/QUOTE]

God had predestined to offer redemption to the Jews and then the Gentiles ; however, redemption is conditional upon personal repentance.

The verse that you quoted "no one can come to me unless granted by God" does not sufficiently means individual predestination because it is just an isolated verse. Case in point: The Catholics believe that Mary is the mother of god who intercedes for their prayers based on couple of verses:

(1) John 19:26,27: When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to her, “Woman, here is your son,” and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.
(2) Mary asked Jesus to turn water into wine at the wedding [John 2], and Jesus did so.

Based on a few verses or event, Catholics exulted Mary to be the intercessor for their prayers. Now, does the Scripture talk about Mary as intercessor SUBSTANTIALLY?

Note: I am not against Catholics, I am just explaining a point.

Consider these 3 verses:

Acts 16:31 -- And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household”

Romans 10:9 -- because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved

John 3:16: For God so love the world that He sent His only begotten Son, that whoever believe in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Notice that these 3 verses did NOT say that we have to repent in order to be saved. Is belief without repentance sufficient? If someone believes that Jesus is the Son of God who was resurrected and seated at God's right hand now, does it mean he is redeemed -- even if he doesn't repent? If he ignore. context, he can insist he is correct.

About the words , being called by God [Jude], "chosen people" or "Chosen by God" [Peter] . During biblical times, people wouldn't say that they chose to believe God; instead they said that God chose them or they are being called. It was a humble way of speaking. Back then, people were much more subservient to God, and it would be arrogant or inappropriate for them to say they chose Him. it does not mean that God called Jason or Susan to be saved ie NOT individual predestination. As time change, languages change too; today, we don't speak this way anymore. We tend to misinterpret words (such as chosen and predestined) at surface level or literally, which contribute to the confusion that God literally handpick people.

1. 
   
   
   
   

 

[roman2819]

1 Peter 1 New International Version (NIV)
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

I just don't see anyway around concluding that God has individually chosen His elect to be sprinkled with Christ's blood.
And that God knew His elect ones beforehand by His foreknowing of them and those are the ones He chose to be saved.

The gospel was preached to Jews first; and after Peter 's vision, the Gentiles were included. Paul and Peter meant used the word "predestine" to mean that God had predestined to reach out to the Jews and then the Gentiles. Predestination is just a word, it is the context that matters.

In earlier post, I have explained that chosen. or called by God are words of humility. Back then, they humbly said that God called or chose them, they don't say they chose to believe in Him.

In the New Testament, there are only three verses that use the word for predestination. Only three verses is NOT sufficient to build a case of individual predestination. A handful of verses with the word "chosen" or "called" does not add up to individual predestination either. None of the apostles wrote substantially about individual predestination. Jesus never preached that God choose who to redeem on individual basis. It is strange. and baffling to see how people disregard context. and (mis)interpret a word.

 

[sdowney717]

The gospel was preached to Jews first; and after Peter 's vision, the Gentiles were included. Paul and Peter meant used the word "predestine" to mean that God had predestined to reach out to the Jews and then the Gentiles. Predestination is just a word, it is the context that matters.

In earlier post, I have explained that chosen. or called by God are words of humility. Back then, they humbly said that God called or chose them, they don't say they chose to believe in Him.

In the New Testament, there are only three verses that use the word for predestination. Only three verses is NOT sufficient to build a case of individual predestination. A handful of verses with the word "chosen" or "called" does not add up to individual predestination either. None of the apostles wrote substantially about individual predestination. Jesus never preached that God choose who to redeem on individual basis. It is strange. and baffling to see how people disregard context. and (mis)interpret a word.

God really DID choose us. This is not a reflection of a state of mind and attitude.
To be consistent your going to have to come to that realization. If you look up chose, choose in the NT, you will this action is always on His part towards us, not the other way round. And then Jesus telling us of those that God gave Him, means exactly that, that God gave to Christ His children.

Examples where He chose us not our choosing Him
John 15:16
You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-17 New King James Version (NKJV)
Stand Fast
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.

The beginning here tells us it was God's choice to save those that He saved from the beginning which matches what I read in Ephesians 1, personal and individual God made that choice way back before time began.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.