A thought on God...

[Eudaimonist]

"*We define god as simply someone... unchanging, and with a WILL to act. God exists in but a moment of eternity where there is no succession of events, thoughts, or time. God does everything he will ever do at every point in time at one time."

What use is WILL when there is no succession of events, thoughts, or time for such a being?

If there is no succession of thoughts, how can God think? How can God make plans? How can God act to implement plans?

What you are describing is a statue, not a person.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[ArchaicTruth]

Will and thoughts are two different things

Plants cannot think, yet they have the will to find sunlight

There is no succession of thoughts, meaning they do not occur in the linear fashion known as time

She is using her logic to prove that something exists that our logic cannot comprehend I think
You may not be able to explain the hole, but you can see that it is there

 

[Eudaimonist]

Will and thoughts are two different things

Plants cannot think, yet they have the will to find sunlight

Will is a faculty of mind. Plants have minds?

She is using her logic to prove that something exists that our logic cannot comprehend I think

How can one use logic to prove something illogical?

You may not be able to explain the hole, but you can see that it is there

There is no hole. Just a baseless assertion.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[elman]

If I said an enormous rabbit did what God did, how would you go about proving God did instead of the giant rabbit?

Neither is provable, so which is the more reasonable?

 

[ArchaicTruth]

Plants don't have minds, yet they have a will

5.purpose or determination, often hearty or stubborn determination; willfulness: to have the will to succeed.

one definition of will, one does not need a mind to have purpose.

You use logic to prove that something illogical exists, because when you reach the point where logic fails, then obviously something is there that cannot have logic applied to it. We use logic to identify something illogical, thus this hole in everything. No hole? I'd assume since there is no hole in your logic and answers, you know everything. But of course, you don't. Eventually we reach a big wall when we discuss the creation of the universe and what came before us, are you telling me that wall is not a hole in our knowledge? It is, because we have no answer, and somewhere in that hole is the being known as God.

 

[Isambard]

Neither is provable, so which is the more reasonable?

Exactly. She's just using one grand assumption. A similar feat can be accomplished with the rabbit example

 

[ArchaicTruth]

uh, it seems to me that my post in counter to the rabbit thing is being ignored : /

 

[StTherese]

If I said an enormous rabbit did what God did, how would you go about proving God did instead of the giant rabbit?

A rabbit (regardless of its size) is a created being. Do you know any rabbits with the capability of creating anything? Can rabbits exist outside of time? Could there ever have been rabbits if they were not first created by "something" else? A rabbit can only act in accord with its created nature.

God can not be compared to any created thing...He is the Creator of everything. He exists outside of our created nature. If I was an artist and formed a new form of art that no one had ever seen before, would that make me subjected to be a part of that form of art? Would I have to abide by the same rules that the art follows in being distinct from other forms of art, just because I created it? Or is it only that the form of art is subjected to my intellect and not the reverse?

 

[StTherese]

How can one use logic to prove something illogical?

Like trying to prove that something came from nothing?

 

[redmartian89]

A rabbit (regardless of its size) is a created being. Do you know any rabbits with the capability of creating anything? Can rabbits exist outside of time? Could there ever have been rabbits if they were not first created by "something" else? A rabbit can only act in accord with its created nature.

A natural rabbit, maybe. Not a supernatural one.

Like trying to prove that something came from nothing?

Or that everything came from a supernatural God that exists outside of space-time as so no one can logically prove its existence using our natural minds?

Do you claim that your invented answer is better then admitting that we need more information?

 

[ArchaicTruth]

Do you claim that your invented answer is better then admitting that we need more information?

why not do both? Though "invented" isn't the word Id use...

 

[redmartian89]

I use the word invented because God is very subjective.

I persume your parents are Catholic and have taught you about the Christian God.

I see religionists of all shades give me all kinds of definitions and descriptions of their God, even if they are of the same faith.

Maybe invented isn't the right word, but there is plenty of speculation in this field, NO DEFINITIVE ANSWERS.

Just don't call your speculation logical simply because 1.5 billion people agree with its name and 2000-yr old doctrines.

 

[ArchaicTruth]

we each have our own image of God, because we can't comprehend Him, and of course, people aren't too happy when they don't understand something, so they fill in the gaps.

 

[StTherese]

I use the word invented because God is very subjective.

I persume your parents are Catholic and have taught you about the Christian God.

My husband and I are Catholic and we are raising our children to be Catholic, besides that no one else on either side of our families believes the same way that we do. We both went on a search for truth and found it in the Catholic Church.

I see religionists of all shades give me all kinds of definitions and descriptions of their God, even if they are of the same faith.

I can see how all the different denominations would be confusing to someone outside the Christian faith. It confused me also. God never intended for their to be so many different "denominations." It was men who felt that their idea of God was better than the Church's teachings, so they started their own system of beliefs.

Maybe invented isn't the right word, but there is plenty of speculation in this field, NO DEFINITIVE ANSWERS.

Faith is not about definitive answers.

Just don't call your speculation logical simply because 1.5 billion people agree with its name and 2000-yr old doctrines.

History does speak for itself.

 

[redmartian89]

My husband and I are Catholic and we are raising our children to be Catholic, besides that no one else on either side of our families believes the same way that we do. We both went on a search for truth and found it in the Catholic Church.

I was addressing ArchaicTruth, but by what standard did the truth of Catholicism come to you?

I can see how all the different denominations would be confusing to someone outside the Christian faith. It confused me also. God never intended for their to be so many different "denominations." It was men who felt that their idea of God was better than the Church's teachings, so they started their own system of beliefs.

I was refering to the differences on the same denominational sides, Catholic and Catholic, Baptist and Baptist, and so on.

StTherese, do you and your husband have the same exact definition of God and interpret 'miracles' the same?

Faith is not about definitive answers.

We both went on a search for truth and found it in the Catholic Church.

Coulda fooled me.

I was always taught that truth was objective, knowable, and definitive.

History does speak for itself.

It does indeed, the Dark Ages, Inquisition, Crusades, centuries worth of corruption and political tensions, opposition to IVF, condoms, ordination of women and homosexuals, birth control and abortion rights, and putting missionaries in the pit of proverty-stricken nations telling the people that earthly suffering and bondage to guilt and even perhaps dying of AIDS will reap heavenly riches beyond reckoning speaks volumes of the peaceful, kind and loving history of the Catholic faith.

 

[ArchaicTruth]

Apologies, I was not aware that you were addressing me

My father was Catholic, my mom is Methodist
I was raised Catholic, and have no complaints

 

[StTherese]

I was addressing ArchaicTruth, but by what standard did the truth of Catholicism come to you?

Yeah, I know, I just sort of jumped in...

The Holy Spirit lead me to truth and to the Catholic Church.

I was refering to the differences on the same denominational sides, Catholic and Catholic, Baptist and Baptist, and so on.

There shouldn't be differences in beliefs for Catholics. If one disagrees with a doctrine supported by the Church, it is their disagreement that is in error, not the Church. The Holy Spirit guides the Church into all truth. One cannot be Catholic if they stand against the teachings of the Catholic Church...could someone truly be an atheist, yet at the same time believe in God?

StTherese, do you and your husband have the same exact definition of God and interpret 'miracles' the same?

Yes, why?

Coulda fooled me.

I was always taught that truth was objective, knowable, and definitive.

But, sometimes things are not always what they seem to be.

Can you prove that you exist?

It does indeed, the Dark Ages, Inquisition, Crusades, centuries worth of corruption and political tensions, opposition to IVF, condoms, ordination of women and homosexuals, birth control and abortion rights, and putting missionaries in the pit of proverty-stricken nations telling the people that earthly suffering and bondage to guilt and even perhaps dying of AIDS will reap heavenly riches beyond reckoning speaks volumes of the peaceful, kind and loving history of the Catholic faith.

People don't always want what is truly best for them. God knows what we need more than we do. Suffering and death are inevitable in this life...God became man so that our suffering and death can have meaning in and through Him.

 

[ArchaicTruth]

"Can you prove that you exist?"


I love that question

 

[redmartian89]

The Holy Spirit lead me to truth and to the Catholic Church.

How can you say that it was that and not something else, like an angel, a dragon, or Elvis?

But, sometimes things are not always what they seem to be.

Can you prove that you exist?

What kind of question is this?

Look at the language: can you prove that you exist?

That question implies that you're talking to a being capable of drawing a conclusion on its own existence.

Does existence exist? Just by your semantics, it is a "duh!"

People don't always want what is truly best for them. God knows what we need more than we do. Suffering and death are inevitable in this life...God became man so that our suffering and death can have meaning in and through Him.

Gobbledygook! That answers nothing.

No sympathies with the victims or condemnation?

Apologies, I was not aware that you were addressing me

My father was Catholic, my mom is Methodist
I was raised Catholic, and have no complaints

You weren't a convert to Catholicism, so can you say that your religious upbringing doesn't play a role in what you now consider to be true?

Have you ever questioned or rejected your birth faith, AT?

 

[ArchaicTruth]

My upbringing period defined most of my base personality traits and characteristics

I have questioned and rejected my faith before, yes
Dark times, horribly dark times...