A Theological Question

[ShilohCity]

I would like to ask those of you who believe in evolution a purely theological question. I am not asking to start a debate, but simply because this is something that I am wondering about.

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned - for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. Romans 5:12-14

This passage seems to clearly indicate that we are all sinners because of Adam's sin. If there was no Adam, How do you explain why we are all sinners?

 

[rmwilliamsll]

The doctrine of federal headship is not effected at all by any theistic evolutionary thinking.
RCC propose that evolution created Adam's body and his spirit was a unique creation of God. Most TE contend that Adam was either an evolved apelike creature that God modified or that Adam was created from a pattern that had evolved. In all cases, federal headship is not modified.

 

[El Guapo]

Well I am far from a theologian, but here's the way I've viewed it. Why did Adam sin? Because there was something inherently sinful about him? No, he was given free will by God and he used that free choice to eventually disobey God. So assume Adam was replaced w/ Joe Blow or you or me, would any of us not eventually have used this gift to pursue our own selfish goals at some point as well?

The fact of the matter is it doesn't matter when or where the first sin was committed because each one of us is and would be inherently sinful ourselves. Each one of us is thus in need of redemption and of a savior for this reason irregardless if Adam sinned or not. If a beautiful metaphor of sorts (i.e. parts if not all of Genesis) is used to explain this spiritual phenomenon in a better way than simply saying, "you're a sinner, deal w/ it" then all the better.

I hope that made sense. That's my take on it anyway.

 

[Underdog77]

If anyone wants to hear the other side of the story (YEC) just say so.

 

[mhess13]

If anyone wants to hear the other side of the story (YEC) just say so.

Yeah, it's hard to believe how far people will go to just avoid a plain reading of scripture. YOU HAVE TO JUST WANT to believe evolution to mangle the scriptures the way TE's do.In the end it all comes down to faith. I'd rather have my faith in God and His word rather than fallible textbooks.

 

[Underdog77]

Yeah, it's hard to believe how far people will go to just avoid a plain reading of scripture. YOU HAVE TO JUST WANT to believe evolution to mangle the scriptures the way TE's do.In the end it all comes down to faith. I'd rather have my faith in God and His word rather than fallible textbooks.

Bingo

 

[Marshall Janzen]

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned

How did death pass from Adam to us? Is it something in our genes we inhereted from Adam? Not according to this verse: it's because all sin! That's no less true if Adam is representative of humans and not a historical person.

 

[Dale]

*
Shiloh City,
Look at it this way. Do animals sin? I would expect everyone to say that they don't, because they don't know right from wrong. Do animals die? Yes, they do. So if animals die, yet are without sin, then why human beings also die is not something that needs to be explained.

 

[mhess13]

*
Shiloh City,
Look at it this way. Do animals sin? I would expect everyone to say that they don't, because they don't know right from wrong. Do animals die? Yes, they do. So if animals die, yet are without sin, then why human beings also die is not something that needs to be explained.

Animals die because the creation was cursed after the Fall. Read the creation account. You'll see that animals as well as man had a vegetarian diet before the fall of man.
Romans 8:19-21 (KJV)
For the earnest expectation of the creature(creation) waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. [20] For the creature was made subject to vanity (futility), not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, [21] Because the creature(creation) itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (comments mine)

The scriptures indicate that the curse will be removed.
from the hated www.theyoungearth.com :
THE CURSE WILL BE REMOVED

When Jesus returns and establishes his kingdom upon the earth and reigns for 1000 years, a period of time known as “the Millennial Reign of Christ”, Satan will be bound and the curse will be removed from the earth. (see Rev. 20:2)

The prophet Isaiah spoke of this glorious restoration.

Isaiah 11:5-8

And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. 6The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

Isaiah 35:1-10

The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose. 2It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the Lord, and the excellency of our God.

3Strengthen ye the weak hands, and confirm the feeble knees. 4Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you. 5Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped. 6Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert. 7And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes. 8And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein. 9No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there: 10And the ransomed of the Lord shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

Isaiah 65:20

There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Isaiah 65:25

The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.

Zechariah also spoke of the time when the curse is removed.

Zech. 8:3-5

Thus saith the Lord; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the Lord of hosts the holy mountain. 4Thus saith the Lord of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age. 5And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof.

This glorious time awaits those who know Christ as savior. Not only will we rule with Christ during the Millennium, but we will live forever in a New Earth. Give your life to Jesus today if you haven’t already.
http://www.theyoungearth.com/ayoungearth/id3.html

 

[Dale]

mhess13 in post #9:
<< Animals die because the creation was cursed after the Fall. Read the creation account. You'll see that animals as well as man had a vegetarian diet before the fall of man.
Romans 8:19-21 (KJV) >>


Genesis says no such thing. God pronounces three, and only three, very specific curses, on
(1) the snake;
(2) the womb;
(3) cultivated ground.
Neither does Romans 8 say anything about death being introduced for animals or animals having a vegetarian diet before the Expulsion from Eden. Romans 8 does talk about all creation groaning, but that is rather vague.
If you go by the story of Cain and Abel, God preferred a meat-eating diet to a vegetarian diet.
*
I think you are misinterpreting the passages from Isaiah. Isaiah is using animals as symbols of nations, that the strong and weak nations will live in peace.

 

[El Guapo]

Oh so we "mangle" scripture now do we? Well a proud mangler I am then.

Tell me though, have you literally cut off your hand when it led you into sin (Matt 5:30)? Do you believe a fire breathing Leviathan actually existed (Job 41)? Do you believe the Earth is set upon pillars (Job 9:6)? Do you make sure all females that pray around you have their heads covered so as not to be disgraced (1 Cor 11:6)? Or are some things just more obviously literal than others?

 

[mhess13]

Oh so we "mangle" scripture now do we? Well a proud mangler I am then.

Tell me though, have you literally cut off your hand when it led you into sin (Matt 5:30)? Do you believe a fire breathing Leviathan actually existed (Job 41)? Do you believe the Earth is set upon pillars (Job 9:6)? Do you make sure all females that pray around you have their heads covered so as not to be disgraced (1 Cor 11:6)? Or are some things just more obviously literal than others?

- I haven't cut off my hand. Jesus wasn't commanding us to do so. He is making the point to do whatever it takes to stay out of hell by using extreme langauge. The same as me saying, "man, I'd give my left arm to have a car like that!"

-I do belive that Leviathan was indeed a fire-breathing DINOSAUR

-I am not a mennonite, so I don't make my wife and daughters cover their heads. (but those who do I have no problem with) This verse has to do with the culture of the day and isn't a command that all christians are instructed to follow

But at any rate this is all off topic. The subject is how you guys contort the scripture to hang onto your ridiculous pet theory of evolution and try to pretend that it's compatible with the Bible.
It all comes down to what you put your faith in- God's word or man's textbooks

 

[theFijian]

It all comes down to what you put your faith in- God's word or man's textbooks

God's word is all around you, his handiwork is in the rocks that show us the earth is old.

Andy

 

[PaladinValer]

I'm a theistic evolutionist and I believe Adam to have been the very first modern human male.

Does that solve your conundrum?

 

[ThePhoenix]

Sin entered the world when man entered the world, because to sin you must be conscious of a better way to act. Therefore only man can sin. The message sent with Adam and Eve is that all men and women sin, that sin is part of us. Why does this require a literal Adam?

 

[herev]

I'm a theistic evolutionist and I believe Adam to have been the very first modern human male.

Does that solve your conundrum?

this has been my theory since as long as I can remember, but I dindn't know til I got here that it had a name to it.

 

[herev]

- I haven't cut off my hand. Jesus wasn't commanding us to do so. He is making the point to do whatever it takes to stay out of hell by using extreme langauge. The same as me saying, "man, I'd give my left arm to have a car like that!"

-I do belive that Leviathan was indeed a fire-breathing DINOSAUR

-I am not a mennonite, so I don't make my wife and daughters cover their heads. (but those who do I have no problem with) This verse has to do with the culture of the day and isn't a command that all christians are instructed to follow

But at any rate this is all off topic. The subject is how you guys contort the scripture to hang onto your ridiculous pet theory of evolution and try to pretend that it's compatible with the Bible.
It all comes down to what you put your faith in- God's word or man's textbooks

Well God bless you for your stance, really.
However, to suggest that parts of the Bible are not literal (cutting off the hand, covering the head, etc) and then state categorically that those who think other parts of the bible are not literal are "contorting" the scripture seems to be an inconsistency.
So many people feel the need to defend God or His word as if He needs our help! God is big enough to stand a little scrutiny of his word, just as you have demonstrated by expressing with wisdom that Jesus does not really want us to cut off our hand. It's ok to think its not all literal, really
God bless again!
Tommy

 

[El Guapo]

Yes, what Herev said...

 

[Underdog77]

How did death pass from Adam to us? Is it something in our genes we inhereted from Adam? Not according to this verse: it's because all sin! That's no less true if Adam is representative of humans and not a historical person.

First of all, which death are you talking about? Spiritual or physical? Physical is passed biologically. Spiritual death comes by sin and we all have the sin nature because of Adam.

Adam was real. He is listed as the head of all who have been born.

Some will claim that "the greeks trace their ancestry back to so and so who mythological and so that's probably what has been done here" (not an exact quote but very very close).

True, some PAGAN religions trace their start back the myth but we aren't talking about a pagan god or a pagan religion. We are talking about the Almighty God. The one and only God. If you talk about lies and falsities you are going to get lies and falsities. But when you are refering to truth you ought to assume that you are getting truth, otherwise God/the Bible/Jesus are just as unreliable as what the pagan's say.

 

[Underdog77]

mhess13 in post #9:
<< Animals die because the creation was cursed after the Fall. Read the creation account. You'll see that animals as well as man had a vegetarian diet before the fall of man.
Romans 8:19-21 (KJV) >>


Genesis says no such thing. God pronounces three, and only three, very specific curses, on
(1) the snake;
(2) the womb;
(3) cultivated ground.

The thing is that the Bible says that "death entered the world". Maybe its some weird 'interpretation' (no its not) but for some strange reason I believe that the Bible is right. It says death entered the world and by golly what do we see when we look around? Death. Where? All around the world.