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A Task- structure of EO

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yatcup

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I am fascinated by the Orthodox Church. There is much to love about their theology, aesthetic, praxis, and history. However, it confuses the living daylights out of me. Unperplex me, please!

One rule: your answer cannot be abstruse, esoteric, ambiguous, or long-winded. I am looking for a direct, CLEAR explanation. If you feel you are about to ramble on, check yourself and try to be more succinct, please!

My question, finally, is what the heck is the organization and individuation of the Orthodox Church? I've been to Wikipedia and it is not very helpful because it is just a jumbled list of various churches.

I don't get it. I understand the RCC - and the few churches in the Latin Rite. I do not understand the mess of 15 autocephalous churches. My purpose in understanding is because I want to go to an Eastern Orthodox parish in America. I want it to be representative of Eastern Orthodoxy - and not any half-baked nonsense. I want to make sure I am at a church that is "authoritative and Traditional." I think my major confusion occurs since I do not understand the interplay of the Orthodox Churches in America in relation to any of the other... patriarchates (?).
 

choirfiend

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Basically, a Bishop is the head of his local assembly of churches. All bishops within a jurisdiction (in the US) or country work together, and one of them is selected to be "Patriarch" or "Metropolitan," who is the organizational leader, although all of them are equal and one Bishop does not have authority over another Bishop's flock. Together, they are jointly responsible for maintaining the faith, and if one bishop were to go awry, the other bishops as a group would meet in council to decide what to do.

In America, the Church came here largely through immigration. The Russian Orthodox Church had missionaries in American lands before any immigration even too place however, and so they had organizational authority over all of the parishes that arose--whether they came from Greece, Serbia, Russia, or Lebanon. However, the Russian Revolution disrupted the ability of the ROC to govern (it was busy being massacred by the Communists,) so all the parishes of various ethnic immigrants returned to the organizational authority of their homeland Church. So, we have multiple "churches," where different parishes, even within the same city, are reporting to different Bishops. In Pittsburgh, there are parishes that report to a Greek Orthodox bishop, parishes that report to a Serbian Orthodox bishop, parishes that report to an Arab Orthodox bishop, parishes that report to an American Orthodox (OCA) bishop, and so on!! This is an unusual situation, found only in America, and is NOT the organizational norm, but we're still working on sorting it all out.

SCOBA (the Standing Conference of Canonical Orthodox Bishops in the Americas) has a list of the different names of the jurisdictions. Only these jurisdictions, plus the "Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia," (ROCOR) are authentic Orthodox Churches.
Any of them are fine to attend. We all believe the same thing, so the teachings should be the same, although differences in cultural traditions will be present depending on where most of the parishioners draw their heritage.
Jurisdictions | Standing Conference of the Canonical Orthodox Bishops in the Americas

If you want to find the Orthodox churches closest to you, this website is generally up to date and accurate. You can use it to only find "Orthodox Church in America" parishes, if that is what you're interested in visiting, but it's always a good idea to visit all the parishes around you, as one church/priest might be a better fit for you than another.
Orthodoxy in America - Home

Visit the parish websites or give the church a call (or two, if no one answers) to find out when services are and to give the priest a heads up that you will be visiting.
Good luck!
 
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Mikeb85

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I don't get it. I understand the RCC - and the few churches in the Latin Rite. I do not understand the mess of 15 autocephalous churches. My purpose in understanding is because I want to go to an Eastern Orthodox parish in America. I want it to be representative of Eastern Orthodoxy - and not any half-baked nonsense. I want to make sure I am at a church that is "authoritative and Traditional." I think my major confusion occurs since I do not understand the interplay of the Orthodox Churches in America in relation to any of the other... patriarchates (?).

Basically, this is how it works. A Bishop is the overseer of the local Church (diocese). As a bishop cannot oversee everything, he has priests who serve/represent him, who serve each parish. Now, to maintain order, there's a level of authority that oversees many dioceses - a Holy Synod, or a Council of many Bishops. Each council has it's head - a Metropolitan or Patriarch.

Now, each of the Holy Synods represents a Church - which is where we get the term autocephalous (self-ruling) Church. Some of the more important autocephalous Churches are also called Patriarchates. And like you know, there's 15 of these.

As for the situation in America, this is how it works. The Russians came to Alaska a few hundred years ago, and converted some of the natives. They set up parishes, etc... Around the turn of the 20th century, the Russians set up a hierarchy in North America. All Orthodox Churches in North America at this time were under the Russian Church. However, when the revolution happened in Russia, the Russian Church lost contact with all it's foreign churches.

Around the same time, many immigrants from all over the world came to America, and needed bishops to oversee the new Churches they were to plant. However, with the irregular situation of the Russian Church, they needed bishops sent from their countries of origin to oversee their churches. This lead to many hierarchs from all the foreign autocephalous Churches eventually representing faithful in North America, which is why you see a variety of 'national' Orthodox Churches.

Anyhow, to figure out if an Orthodox Church is truly Orthodox, just find out if they're part of any 'official' autocephalous Church - meaning if the parish is under a canonical Bishop. Here's a list of the canonical autocephalous Churches and their hierarchs (bishops): Orthodox Research Institute
 
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yatcup

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Okay. This is fun. I have been slow to post on this thread because I read these posts and the words make great sense but the concepts leave me with nothing, which means I re-read until it starts making sense. Thankfully, choirfiend and mike have posted such helpful replies!

What I have gathered:
parish ---> diocese ---> Synod/council
These Synods are designated "autocephalous." They are led by a leadership of equally ranked Bishops, with a Metropolitan selected as a "chairman."

Due to historical events including the Revolution and the era of Immigration, the Orthodox parishes and dioceses in the USA are under the jurisdiction of various Synods. These Synods, in America, are sometimes "national" because of the need to appoint a bishop and circumstances dictated they selected from what was available?

More questions:

Who grants/granted the designation of "autocephalous" to the various Synods in the first place? Was it consensus? By whom?

Regarding the "national" titles, how much of the national/cultural aspect is present in the individual parishes/Synods? I mean, even if the theology is the same, are there cultural differences? And if so, well, my woeful Greek is Attic, my Arabic is just passable, and my Russian is non-existent. Not to mention all the other relevant cultural factors - family history, food, etc. How much of a role does this play? Choirfiend mentioned that there would be such differences, but how much do they matter?

It sounds like the Russian Orthodox Church was at the crux of the development of the EO in America. Why do I have this notion in my brain that Orthodox means Greek Orthodox?

Is there really an Arab Orthodox diocese/Synod? Fascinating!

Not to sound daft, but, in other continents, where the Synod is located in its particular "homeland," are there still "other national" Synods too? (Wow, this is convoluted, I can re-write if need be.)

Thank you again for your help (and patience)!!!!
 
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choirfiend

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Okay. This is fun. I have been slow to post on this thread because I read these posts and the words make great sense but the concepts leave me with nothing, which means I re-read until it starts making sense. Thankfully, choirfiend and mike have posted such helpful replies!

What I have gathered:
parish ---> diocese ---> Synod/council
These Synods are designated "autocephalous." They are led by a leadership of equally ranked Bishops, with a Metropolitan selected as a "chairman."

Due to historical events including the Revolution and the era of Immigration, the Orthodox parishes and dioceses in the USA are under the jurisdiction of various Synods. These Synods, in America, are sometimes "national" because of the need to appoint a bishop and circumstances dictated they selected from what was available?

Yes. If you had 1,000 immigrants from Greece in NYC, they established parishes made out of greeks. After the Russians were in trouble, the parishes returned to the authority they came from, and they are governed by their bishop, who now reports to the Ecumenical Patriarch, who is back home in Constantinople.

Kinda like how the states were settled---Americans moved there, established some government, and became part of the US government. Greeks moved here, established parishes, and b/c the Russians weren't in a position to be governing them, returned to the government of the homeland. The same can be said for any ethnic group.

More questions:

Who grants/granted the designation of "autocephalous" to the various Synods in the first place? Was it consensus? By whom?

Consensus by the council of bishops in the homeland that those parishes came from. For example, the Orthodox Church in America (OCA) is the jurisdiction that remained in the US of the Russian mission parishes. They remained under the rule of the Russian Orthodox Church until 1970, when the Russian Orthodox Church granted "self-rule" or autocephaly to the OCA.
If the Greek Orthododox located in America were to become autocephalous, the decision would come from their governing bishops--The Ecumenical Patriach and the bishops in his jurisdiction. Make sense?

Regarding the "national" titles, how much of the national/cultural aspect is present in the individual parishes/Synods? I mean, even if the theology is the same, are there cultural differences? And if so, well, my woeful Greek is Attic, my Arabic is just passable, and my Russian is non-existent. Not to mention all the other relevant cultural factors - family history, food, etc. How much of a role does this play? Choirfiend mentioned that there would be such differences, but how much do they matter?

That depends on how much any of those given cultural elements bother you. Most parishes serve the services in English or a mixture of English and the "homeland" language. That can make sense if half of your congregation speaks Russian--then you gotta do some in Russian! Very few parishes are completely in another language. If they are, their congregation is likely to be brand new immigrants who don't really speak English, or at least, should be ministered unto in a language they grasp well. Nearly all OCA and Antiochian parishes are completely in English. Most Greek parishes will have a mixture of Greek and English.

The musical styles will be different. The architecture may have a different "flair." Russians have those onion domes that they are known for.

And yes, there is a difference in the food at coffee hour. I've been trying to get to a Greek church for some Greek food at a yearly parish festival for 2 years!! ;)mmmmm spanikopita!

But those differences are superficial. Kind of like being Italian Catholic, Irish Catholic, or Polish Catholic. You may eat spaghetti, corned beef, or cabbage rolls, but you're still Catholic. You can be Greek, English, or Russian, but you're still Orthodox.

Additionally, many parishes have many people who have become Orthodox and bring wtih them whatever their cultural traditions are--regular ol' Americans too. Each parish has a different cultural feel b/c of the makeup of its parishioners! There is only one Orthodox Church in my town, and EVERYONE goes there. It has Americans from every background, Russians, Serbians, Romanians, Greeks, Arabs, Ethiopians, Nigerians, and probably others in it.

If doesn't make a qualitative difference, so if it doesn't bother you, it doesn't matter.

It sounds like the Russian Orthodox Church was at the crux of the development of the EO in America. Why do I have this notion in my brain that Orthodox means Greek Orthodox?

Probably b/c that's what you've seen the most of in media or heard the most about. Americans are incredibly ignorant (dont take offense, I'm American too!)

Is there really an Arab Orthodox diocese/Synod? Fascinating!

Sure! I mean, come on, the Church came out of the Middle East!!! If you study Church History, then you know that 2 of the 5 main cities that made up "The Church" are Jerusalem and Antioch. Nearly all the "arab" Orthodox Christians in this country are part of the Antiochian Orthodox Church.


Not to sound daft, but, in other continents, where the Synod is located in its particular "homeland," are there still "other national" Synods too? (Wow, this is convoluted, I can re-write if need be.)

Thank you again for your help (and patience)!!!!

No. Because in those places, the Church spread by conversion instead of by immigrants from 30 different countries all amassing there, there is not this abnormality of bishops from different jurisdictions in the same areas.

Again, here's a link to all the Orthodox Church in its various countries and locations:
OCA - World Orthodox Churches

Did you use that church finder link? What churches are located by you? Often times people here may be familiar with your area and have suggestions to make on finding a nice parish to visit.
 
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Mikeb85

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Okay. This is fun. I have been slow to post on this thread because I read these posts and the words make great sense but the concepts leave me with nothing, which means I re-read until it starts making sense. Thankfully, choirfiend and mike have posted such helpful replies!

What I have gathered:
parish ---> diocese ---> Synod/council
These Synods are designated "autocephalous." They are led by a leadership of equally ranked Bishops, with a Metropolitan selected as a "chairman."

Due to historical events including the Revolution and the era of Immigration, the Orthodox parishes and dioceses in the USA are under the jurisdiction of various Synods. These Synods, in America, are sometimes "national" because of the need to appoint a bishop and circumstances dictated they selected from what was available?

Kind of. When I was speaking of some American parishes being overseen by 'national' Churches I was referring to the Churches of Constantinople, Antioch, Russia, Serbia, etc...

More questions:

Who grants/granted the designation of "autocephalous" to the various Synods in the first place? Was it consensus? By whom?

In Russia's case, Constantinople (who they were formerly under) granted them autocephalous and Patriarchal status in the 15th century. In the case of other national Churches (Bulgaria, Serbia, Greece, etc...) they declared their own autocephalous status after changing political scenes and Constantinople eventually recognized it (Constantinople again was their former 'mother' Church). In the OCA's case (Orthodox Church in America), Russia granted them autocephalous status in 1970.

Regarding the "national" titles, how much of the national/cultural aspect is present in the individual parishes/Synods? I mean, even if the theology is the same, are there cultural differences? And if so, well, my woeful Greek is Attic, my Arabic is just passable, and my Russian is non-existent. Not to mention all the other relevant cultural factors - family history, food, etc. How much of a role does this play? Choirfiend mentioned that there would be such differences, but how much do they matter?

Depends on the individual parish, and how many of it's parishioners are recent immigrants. I don't know about the US, but in Canada, most Orthodox Churches have at least some english, usually half the liturgy, except the Greeks... The OCA parishes are all English. The theology of course is identical in all Orthodox Churches.

How much of a role do the cultural factors have? Depends on the individual parish (some have many cultures represented) and on you. I know in my case, living where I do, I'm used to having mostly immigrant friends, so I feel very much at home in a Church that has many immigrants and different cultures.

It sounds like the Russian Orthodox Church was at the crux of the development of the EO in America. Why do I have this notion in my brain that Orthodox means Greek Orthodox?

Because Greeks are a fairly large population in the US, so they get the most recognition. Up here no one knows about the Greek Orthodox, if you're Orthodox everyone assumes you're Ukrainian...

Is there really an Arab Orthodox diocese/Synod? Fascinating!

Yup. The Church of Antioch (which is currently based in Damascus, Syria, but originally was in Antioch, which today is located in Turkey). Here's their US website: Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese


Not to sound daft, but, in other continents, where the Synod is located in its particular "homeland," are there still "other national" Synods too? (Wow, this is convoluted, I can re-write if need be.)

No. In Syria, there's only the Church of Antioch. In the Holy Land, only the Church of Jerusalem. The Church of Alexandria covers all of Africa. The Russian Church covers all Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, and a few other small former soviet countries. Etc...
 
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howdydave

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My priest often uses the expression: "We're not organized, we're Orthodox!"

For the superstructure I like to think of Orthodoxy like the Roman Catholic Church (parden the expression) without a Pope. The Patriarchs are like the Catholic Council of Cardinals without an overseer. Before the Great Schism in 1054, the Pope was just another Patriarch (Patriarch of Rome.)

re: Dogma
Orthodoxy doesn't say "This is what you must believe" -- it gives you limits.
Drawing a great circle in the sand it says: "Anything outside of the circle is heresy, but feel free to make yourself comfortable anywhere you want to inside of the circle."

I'm a convert so feel free to correct me!
 
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