A Talk About Truth

[Shadowseldil]

This is a conversation that has been taking place in a separate thread between MountainDog, Woman of Faith, and myself. While anyone is welcome to comment, please adhere to the rules.

Rules:

1) THIS IS A DISCUSSION! This is not a(n): argument, debate, or a "witch-hunt," as it were. In the end, we are (presumably) Christians, and therefore brothers and sisters in Christ. While we may feel strongly about one point or another, while we may feel we are right and justified in our position, the point of this thread is to edify, not tear down. Please remember that, and post everything in love.

2) Please keep the topic relative. I suspect (knowing my nature) we will end up down rabbit trails and side paths, but do not wildly shift the topic of the discussion.

3) Do all things to honor and glorify God. In the end, it isn't so much about who is right or wrong, but whether God is pleased with our conduct. If we adhere to this, I suspect the rest will fall into place.

4) BE PATIENT AND UNDERSTANDING! Too much needless fighting has arisen over misunderstood comments. If you are in doubt, follow the principles of Matt. 18:15-20. Not to be pretentious, but this thread will serve as the "two or three gathered together in (His) name."
EDIT: It seems the moderators were busy while I did not have time, and have been wiping away the previous discussion. I am trying to snag what's left of it.

Prayerfully yours,
Shadows

Well, guys, I'm beginning to get a different understanding of things. Your warnings are well-intentioned, but in the end really of no more or less importance than encouragement. This is my calling.

And if I feel it, then it must be true.

I really hope you are not serious about that, MD. I hope the smiley means you are kidding. You can't go by feelings and you should know that. Feelings are what lead people astray.

WoF, what I'm serious about is that perspective has gotten to where I see truth in everything, to varying degrees. Or maybe that's not the right way to put it... I am aware of the concept of good and evil, but I no longer see much use for it. Who am I to say what is good or evil? And what, exactly, is "good"? The only sound answer that presents itself is "God". So "good" CANNOT be an adjective, it must be an object. "God IS Good." Good and God are the same thing. Now, even here, I could switch the view around completely and show you something else that also makes sense, but you'd get lost in a thicket of abstractions that may or may not come together for you.

Now, what is evil? In conventional Christianity, evil is associated with Satan. So we say, given that my above reasoning is true, "Satan IS Evil." And now this leads to the punch (for me).

Good cannot have created Evil.
Therefore Evil cannot be true.
Evil is false.
The nature of Evil is falsehood.
Satan is the Father of Lies, because Satan is the totality of ALL falsehood.
The way to be free of falsehood, is to see thhe truth.
Good is the totality of Trutth.
Only Good is real.
The way to know God, is to know what is real.
And what is real?
Everything.

And that's not even scratching the surface. I'm vulnerable as a newborn kitten in the face of all this, and I'm loving every moment of it. I've got nothing left to protect me, WoF. Nothing. And that's how it should be, because this is what it REALLY means to live by faith in Jesus Christ, the Way, the Truth, and the Life. One Way, the Only Way, the faith that Truth is all there is. The Truth will set you free!

I'm on my way to Heaven, guys. Right now. In fact, I'm already there.

There is one fault to your argument, MD (Well, at least one. I haven't scoured over it in depth): Good necessitates evil.

Look at it this way: if God, being fully good, creates a being (like humans) also to be good, He must also allow for them to choose evil. Not because God can do or make evil, but because not allowing the choice is not fully good.
It is different with other aspects of nature. God did not create them to be good; He created them to be obedient. In this, there is a slight difference; one is forced to be good, the other must choose goodness.
Wickedness, best defined, is the opposite of God's nature. There is no adequate human definition because is should strictly be defined by God's nature. However, if God did not present to us the choice; if, as it were, we were forced to obey, than choices themselves would be "evil." We would not be given the option to choose good, because the choice itself would be against God's nature, were that the case.
However, as it stands, God, in His full goodness, gave us the choice, either to choose good, which is solely God's nature, or to choose that which is against God's nature. The choice itself, however, is, by God standard of goodness, a good thing. It becomes evil when the choice is made to disobey God.

I'm not sure if I'm making my point clearly. Let me try another angle and see if it sticks.

God cannot lie. This is Biblical truth. However, the reason is not simply because God can only be honest, but because the moment God says it, it becomes true. It is not that God cannot say the sky is green, but if he said it, the sky would instantly become green. In the same way, God cannot choose to do evil, for the moment God does it, it becomes good. (There are statutes to God's goodness I shan't delve into here. Just bear it in mind).
Satan is not evil in the same way God is good. God is good because his actions define goodness. Satan, however, is clearly not the same way. He is not, strictly, evil either. God is love for the sake of God's love. Satan, however, is not therefore hate simply for the sake of hatred. Nor is he wicked for the sake of wickedness. Satan wants to be God, and in so wanting, he wishes to supersede God's system of good and evil with his own.
In all of it, he still has the ability to choose good (I think). It is not the choosing, but the choice that determines good or evil. However, the fact remains that the ability to choose good necessitates the ability to choose evil. The fact that there is anything good means there must then be evil, even if the evil is no more than a concept whereby to contrast the goodness of the good. In heaven there will still be evil; but there will be no evil deeds or thoughts. Evil will only exist there as a contrast to the goodness of the good. The choice will still be present, but praise God we will not choose evil any more. Thus, the good becomes exceeding good, if you catch my point.

I still feel I'm doing this very poorly. I've always had difficulty putting my thoughts in an organized manner. If you'd like a better presentation of it, read C.S. Lewis's Mere Christianity.
Also, if you have any questions, PM me, and I'll try to do a better job at organizing my point.

The way to be free of falsehood, is to see thhe truth.

​

There is a falacy to your logic here, MD. Just because one sees the truth does not mean he/she chooses it. To be free of falsehood one must CHOOSE the truth.

I could go through that whole post and show you how it does not match with Scripture, but as I have said before the most important thing, the ONLY thing, that really matters is that you realize Jesus is the Son of God, that He came to earth and died for us all, that He rose again on the third day and that you receive that gift. That's the only thing that matters. THAT is choosing the Truth.

Yes, that is true. But that is my whole point.. Because I have given up the security of being attached to a particular viewpoint, I've discovered that upon examination, what appears false at first glance actually reveals itself to be true.

If you take a test, and the questions are true/false, you can discern that any of these questions could be found to be true or false -- all it really requires is a shift of context. So what you are actually being asked to do is determine true or false according to a particular frame of reference (in this case, the textbook or professor). Even a statement that appears provably false, "MD's hair is white" could be true if the structure of the eye were changed so that my hair did indeed appear white.

So yes, WoF, you could indeed go through my post and show me how it did not line up with Scripture. But what you give me would be the truth of Scripture according to WoF. I think it significant to note that all the Gospels were titled "The Gospel According to..."
And now I just realized the importance of humility...

Now, therein lies a fallacy.

Truth is truth. You might say your hair is white because that is how you see it, but it does not change the color of your hair.

I might say that there is no such thing traffic, but that doesn't prevent me from becoming a human flapjack if I step in front of a tractor-trailer.

This is why truth, and goodness, must be measured by God and no other source. God is the only one who never changes, so says He, and therefore His truth does not change.

As far as Scripture is concerned, it is written by God. Certainly it was penned by humans, but God is the author, similar (though not equal) to how the pen delivers the ink to the page, but the words are your words, not the pen's words.

Don't misunderstand me, MD; I don't have all the answers. Only God does. However, He is more than willing to reveal them if we earnestly wish to know and keep them. All I am doing is sharing that which God has revealed to me through the wisdom he has granted me.

Originally Posted by Mountaindog

So yes, WoF, you could indeed go through my post and show me how it did not line up with Scripture. But what you give me would be the truth of Scripture according to WoF. I think it significant to note that all the Gospels were titled "The Gospel According to..."

​

I did not mean to offend you, MD. You may say I haven't, but this comes across that way. You don't have to believe me, but whenever I quote Scripture it is Scripture I am quoting, not my interpretation. I quote Scripture so people will go look into it and see it from God's own Word for themselves. I will say this to you for the last time, MD, I know I have said it in PMs and chats, but I'm saying it here to you publicly for the first time. Again, this will be the last time I say this to you so I hope you remember it.

I expect no one to believe me when I say anything regarding God's Word. I want them to look it up for themselves. Context is key and too often Scripture has been quoted for the speaker/writer's own ends. Take a look at Shadow's last post again. It is SO similar to my heart on this, especially that last paragraph. The wisdom he speaks of can only be found by praying sincerely for the Holy Spirit to guide you as you read the Word. Therein is all wisdom and truth.

MD, all I have prayed for you is God's perfect will, that you will find His truth, that you will find and walk the path He has set before you and not stray from it. I will continue to do so.

May you allow the Holy Spirit to guide you in all things. In Jesus' name, Amen.



Shadow,

Very eloquent and succinct. I mean it when I say it's like you were reading my mind. Great post, man.

LOL! You could not hurt me, WoF. The only hurt I ever experience is caused by my own perception of your words. You are not responsible for how I choose to see things. So... Thank you for saying what was in you to say.

And Shadow, so am I. Yes, truth is truth, and I never claimed that what I was saying was absolute truth... The thing is, I did not come up with this on my own. Sure, I have been reading various things, but what I am saying came from... ehhh... ::shrug:: No can describe.

And I have to point out that your example of being flapjacked is true because of its context in physical reality... Or then again, is this true?

My challenge here is that I recognize that what you guys are saying is true, but that you speak from a slightly different context than me, so it would seem at first glance to be inconsistent with my understanding of the issue. So there is a part of me that would reject what you say straight off, based on the desire to "be right." But when I make the decision to simply accept what you say as truth, then I see that all three of us are, in fact, wholly correct.

How am I supposed to describe this? Now I understand why the disciples and Jesus worked in a question-and-answer format. Truth has no beginning or end, therefore to learn requires the creation of a frame of reference within which understanding can take place.

I welcome anything you guys share. I have much i would share myself, if you will.

Thank you.

 

[Elijah2]

Have you read any good books, say, "The Latent Power" by Watchman Nee.

 

[Jere209]

MOD HAT OFF

​

Thread re-opened for posting.
Please see OP for guidelines.

​

 

[StarSplitter87]

>.< I am displeased. Why is my OOC closed? >.<

*Sigh*

Well what I came here to say was, I'm not back, just checking in. I got extremely sick on saturday when I flew back to Indy. Nearly passed out from the stomach pain and throwing up at the denver airport. They almost didn't let me fly home. Been sick since that morning before I got out of dorm clear till now, though I am feeling better. Nothing but dry heaving on saturday followed by two intervenously inserted fluids (one was at denver airport) as well as blood work and various pills given by emergency room saturday night and my own doctor today.

More appointments to follow, all before school starting next wednesday. Luckily my Ben was able to come over saturday night and stay with me till today along with mi madre. I don't know what's wrong with me. I don't know when I"ll feel good enough to read/post.

I'll be back later on. I should post this in my other OOC...

~Star

 

[SkyArk17]

Shadow, your post about God's concept of free will is unmatched. I have wished to say that to many people in my life, but I have been unable to interpret it to them.

I do not say this out to hurt, but MD seems to be a philosopher to the extreme (in relative to others). If you are that "humble" and open-minded, you have no solid ground to hold onto for your life, every wind that sweeps MD up will surely make it so that he has no direction in life. Truth is absolute in its full context and nothing can change that. Although you need relative opinions and perspectives to see the underlying truth, that does not mean none of those opinions and perspectives point directly to the truth. In this case, the Bible. Although the Bible needs to be examined thoroughly to know it's complete perspective in pointing directly to the truth. (this is why pastors are needed, to show the results of their examination of the Bible) The Bible is used as a point of solid ground to stand on, but it has become more complicated with different perspectives on the Bible's perspective! (that's why we have different denominations)

I am in a position of open-mindedness like MD, but I have studied and found my solid footings on the Bible after 6-7 years of searching for God and the Truth. I hold no denomination as right or wrong without personal proof given to me by God's guidance. Although much of the truth that the Bible points to is shrouded in past cultures, history, current multiple translations of it and modern definitions of different words, the Bible still has enough content that is open for anyone to understand without need of a pastor.

If you have no solid footing right now because of seemingly paradoxical topics, very relative-made statements, and other complex issues, I suggest putting your foot first on the simple-made verses you can understand by yourself, so that you can pull back to them if you seem lost in that abstract wind with thousands of directions with no proof of which of them leads to truth.

 

[Shadowseldil]

I am glad I have been able to help. MD is no longer on the forums, to my knowledge; either preference or schedule that keeps him away. Still, I'm glad our discussion, which became grounded for that reason, was helpful to at least one person

But your words strike true. After all, the Bible says there is a way that seems right to men, but the end thereof is destruction. If one is not grounded in Biblical truth, one is tossed about with every... how does the Bible put it? Ah, here it is Ephesians 4:14

That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

May God give us the grace not to be deceived by those false teachers who lie in wait. Stay fast in the word, Sky, for it is the only truth we can absolutely trust.

 

[SkyArk17]

I am glad I have been able to help. MD is no longer on the forums, to my knowledge; either preference or schedule that keeps him away. Still, I'm glad our discussion, which became grounded for that reason, was helpful to at least one person

But your words strike true. After all, the Bible says there is a way that seems right to men, but the end thereof is destruction. If one is not grounded in Biblical truth, one is tossed about with every... how does the Bible put it? Ah, here it is Ephesians 4:14

May God give us the grace not to be deceived by those false teachers who lie in wait. Stay fast in the word, Sky, for it is the only truth we can absolutely trust.

Wow! I didn't even know about that verse! I'm very glad to know that I am thinking in parallel to the Bible.

It is a shame though that MD is no longer here, I already had my doubts because this thread was started like a month ago, but I decided to post anyway in case he ever came back.

Thank you for even responding, as I thought that this thread had already been abandoned. I hope with my soul that many would use the Bible as you say to me, may God's written words be used as a solid ground to stand fast on. Although I hate to leave on an pessimistic note, as of late, the latest perspectives of the Bible (like Jehovah's Witnesses, the Mormons, and many liberal churches that try to appeal to the masses by distorting the Bible) no longer even point to the truth of it, but that is just my perspective on it.

 

[Shadowseldil]

It is as you say. But do not be disheartened; God's word is from everlasting to everlasting. Greater still, Psalm 138:2 states that He has exalted His word even above His very name. God will not simply let His word pass away unguarded; there is still a strong remnant that cling to it will passion.
Recently, I've been doing a study through Psalm 119. There is no greater passage in the Bible to speak about God's word. If you need a good study, I suggest you look up Spurgeon's commentary on it (called "The Golden Alphabet") and have a walk through it yourself. You will be amazed at what you learn. I was.
If you have any questions, or anything I can help you with, I am yours to ask.

 

[K9Guardian]

Firstly, I am something of a scholar(albeit a poor one) of the Bible and its language. Secondly, God says that He values His word above even His own name. Taking God's name in vain carried the death sentence. If He values His name that much, and His word moreso, I find it quite improbable that God would allow His word to be "lost" or even mistranslated without an accurate translation available. Thirdly, God gives countless promises that His word shall not pass away.

Well, I'm back. My position is different in some ways than ir waas earlier this year. So roll from that.

First, it should be noted that although I have read most of the NT, I do not have intricate knowledge of Biblical history or precepts. What I have to say comes from a life dominated by intense contemplation and dedication to truth, as well as influence from various sources. I cite the works of David R. Hawkins as my primary external resource.

The main drawback I see in your reasoning, Shadow, is what seems to be your firm belief that the Bible we have is wholly correct. Without falling into the trap of specifics, you cannot argue the validity of any resource based on the content of that same resource. If I say that my hair is white, it would be imprudent to quote me in defending the position that my hair was indeed white. It is my belief that in the absence of Divine revelation itself, we as humans turn to sources such as Scripture as a means of knowing truth. But again, without revelation, how does one measure validity? One can&#8217;t. It is all about faith. You cannot know for certain that what you have invested your faith in is entirely sound. Such a closed stance, in my reasoning, leaves little room for revelation to take place.

You may notice that I seem to draw a distinction between Scripture and truth, and this is so. God is not the author of truth; He is truth. Truth is not subject to the dictates of Scripture, nor is it confined to Scripture. The Bible was written by men, first in pieces to preserve the teachings of Christ, then at Nicea to unify the Church. It stands before the perfect judgment of the Light. The map is not the territory. The Bible documents the way, but it is not itself the way, and it is vulnerable not only to mistranslation but also misinterpretation.

God&#8217;s word is not Scripture, but the truth spoken of by Scripture. Therefore, I hold to the view that yes, the Bible can be wiped from the face of the Earth. Yes, it may have been mistranslated to one degree or another, but the Reality of God the Creator will remain unchanged and open to discovery. This is the promise that was given.

 

[K9Guardian]

To address SkyArk's prior statements, I do not know how much of a philosopher I am in relation to others. My life thus far has been markedly isolated; I have not been exposed to a large part of society or its debates. I guess it's a matter of perception in this case. But yes, I believe that truth is absolute. I also believe that as a rule, we can be led to believe anything. look at brainwashing. So, to me solid ground is as dangerous as having no ground at all, I periodically remind myself to be uncertain of what I think I know, and that Reality is its own argument.

"What is truth?" asked Pilate. And Jesus was silent.

 

[Shadowseldil]

To your first statements, MD, I would agree. We cannot for fact know that the Bible is God's divinely inspired word anymore than we can know for a fact that there was a man named Abraham Lincoln.
Think about it: all we have to go by is hearsay and testimonies of others. No one alive has ever seen Abraham Lincoln, and even so, it is not the same as you or I actually seeing him. Any one generation could have conspired to invent such a person as Abraham Lincoln, or the Civil War, or any part of history as far as that is concerned. By mere replication of the fabrication as truth, eventually it will be accepted as such by those who know no better.
The point of it is: science(and by this I mean true science by observation)cannot prove history, which has been among my major contradictions to the theory of evolution. In that sense, you are correct by saying that no one can be certain that the Scriptures are divine truth any more than you can be certain that they are not. Ultimately it boils down to belief, regardless of any evidence that may or may not be presented. That said, I do not say we should blindly believe without regarding evidence, but rather that it will ultimately come to what one believes.
I also agree that God cannot lie(that God is truth, as you put it), and as I have expressed before, it is not because He simply always tells the truth, but because that which He speaks becomes truth. I feel, then, that such is His commitment to truth that He would not let His message to mankind be polluted without in some way preserving His truth. True, this is my believe, but without referencing the Bible, which I believe to be inerrant, I can make no other presentation but that of logic. And this is my logical conclusion to my belief in God(which is also based on logic, but such is far too long and complex to bother posting here. Besides, I feel we are both in agreement that there is a God.)
However, I find I must so believe! Without the certainty that the book in my hands is fully preserved by a true, dutiful, and loving God(which logic dictates to me that God must so be) from copies which were penned, by men, yes, but under the direct inspiration of God(here I must use scripture: For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. [I Peter 1:21]), then I may have no hope that any of it is truth. If one part is wrong, what is to stop any of it from being wrong? If I cannot trust I Peter 1:21 to be directed by God's inspiration and backed by His truth, how shall I trust John 3:16? Logic demands: All or none! Either every jot and tittle is to be trusted, or else none is trustworthy. I was not there when the words were penned, nor there when the Savior spoke those words. I have no evidence, no science, no observation to back my claims. I have naught but the words themselves and logic. Words of scholars are of no avail, for they were not there. Even had they been, what is to keep them from lying?
Logic demands all or none. Other logic demands the helpless and depraved state of man. Other logic demands a god to exist. Other logic demands righteousness through pardon. Other logic demands holiness to pass judgment for wickedness. Other logic demands sacrifice and imputation of innocence. All these are themes present in the holy writ, thus I have chosen to believe and trust it all. Logic demands all is trustworthy, or else none can be trustworthy, for if any of it is untrustworthy, than any other of it could also be untrustworthy.
Of truth, not all of God's word is scripture, but I wholeheartedly believe that all of scripture is God's word. That is why it is often called God's Word, not because it contains all of God's word, but that all of its contents is God's words; His message delivered unto man, divinely inspired truth kept through the ages by divine guidance, not given to slip away or to be lost or to be mishandled without the true message of God available somewhere to be preserved. Those parts some would say are lost(as some would call the epistle of the Laodoceans referenced in the epistle of the Colossians) were not preserved by God's providence. Logic(if one believes, as I do, that the Bible is God's completed message to man) dictates that these were not a part of God's message to man, but perhaps a message for a season, or for only those to whom it was addressed instead of a message to all men of all time.

I am certain that, though I presented this with flowery words and pretty speech(I sometimes get carried away ), there are gaps I have left unanswered and things with which you will disagree. But I am emphatic that logic dictates all or none; either it must all be trusted, or else none of it can be certain. I also believe, though through personal experience and not logic, that even logic, highly though I think of it, may be flawed. As the Bible says, there is a way that seems right unto man, but the end thereof are the ways of death, and this I know from experience as well as faith. Thus, I welcome your comments and criticism, for it will help me refine my own belief and the expression thereof.

Now, as to your second statement, you are presenting a concern over what is reality. I fear you are bogged down by too many concerns. There are two mandates by which logic must work: 1) the universe exists, and 2) I exist. You are striking at the core of logic by your indecisiveness over reality. If so, I can do little to help you, for logic is the main ground by which I stand. Logic, experience, and belief: by these three I stand, and I have chosen the latter to take precedence over the former, for experience has shown such this stance as the more reliable. But I digress.
I can only give this a consolation to your quandary: If this is not real; if this is reality some manner of infants dream preserved throughout my years, then it is of little concern what I think and believe, for it shall all vanish once the dreamer awakes. If, however, this is reality, then what I think and believe is of great concern. To reconcile the two, I should live as if it were reality, for if it is not, there is no loss because it is not reality; and if it is, then I should be right in my supposition and thus there is no loss because I have behaved in accordance to reality.

To the final comment, Pilate said that phrase out of frustration that Jesus would give him no straight answer to his question. Most students of the Bible I have read agree on this facet, and I find it logical. Thus Jesus gave no answer because, logically, Pilate stormed out of the room, as the next verse identifies him standing before the Pharisees. That is how I see it, and I believe I am well supported by evidence.

 

[K9Guardian]

I think we operate from different paradigms here, Shadow, and it is good that we can accept this in good faith. Often, both sides express a truth and the only separation between them is one of paradigm. Can a bird speak to a fish about the sky, and a fish about the water?

Please don&#8217;t misunderstand, in truth I have few worries. I might even go so far as to say I worry less than the average person. But if I do worry, it is not so much about reality as in losing sight of my mission in life; that is the full realization of the Reality which is God. Reality as you have described it reflects a separation between the observer and the observed, therefore the observed cannot be fully known by the observer, the observer&#8217;s reality is created by his beliefs and perceptions of the observed. As I understand it, this was Descartes&#8217; premise of res externa versus res interna. Reality as I am describing it is a state in which the perception of the observer reaches a point such that it becomes fully in line with the universe as it is, and there is therefore no longer a clear distinction between &#8220;it&#8221; and &#8220;I&#8221;. Delusion occurs when perception becomes dominant over truth in the mind of the observer such that what-is becomes lost in &#8220;what I think/feel/see etc.&#8221;.

Therefore I feel that uncertainty is a safeguard, for the world we think we see may not be the world that really is. Simultaneously, the God that we see now may not be God as He truly is. And yet, we also need certainty, for we must believe that there is an Absolute (and there can only be an Absolute!). Let there be no divisions between certain and not certain, for both are here to serve you.

I agree with you that we need resources, Shadow, that we can trust. Much of what I say does not come from me, but from things I read, tested with both logic and intuition, and then accepted into the core of my beliefs. Had I not been so trusting as a child, when I first heard my mother speak of God, would I be where I am now? What I think to be your error (as I see it) is in confusing the Bible with the truth itself. The Bible is a book like any other. It is imbued with specialness only because of its history and the fact that it is the very heart of Christianity as a religion. The difference is only that the intention of the Bible was to convey, in as exact a manner as possible, the teachings of Jesus God Incarnate and those who came after, so that others might discover and choose the way to the Light. Like any other book of paper and ink, the Bible is in the world and therefore subject to the laws of the world. God will not stop the Bible from being destroyed, because He is not of the world and therefore not dependent on anything in it. He cannot fail. If we do not know him through the Bible, we will know Him in other ways, by other names.

Words are but symbols of actualities, and in this sense, the language of the Bible could be called God&#8217;s word; it is the translation of Reality into a form comprehensible to those who have not yet overcome the limitations of perception. It was NEVER intended to be a substitute for revelation, which is direct communication with the Creator. We are not asked to read the Bible. We are asked to return to the house of our Father, which is the Kingdom. The Bible should be seen as a tool to that end, to be put aside when it is no longer serviceable.

As pertains to logic, I believe it is good, I just see it as limited in the sense that it presumes facts, which again are subject to the perception of the observer. Well-done logic can hold its own, but there is the assumption that truth is provable and disprovable. It is not. It just is. You can only know a proverb is true when your life has illustrated it. So&#8230;

Phew&#8230;

 

[Shadowseldil]

I will agree with you that my logic can be flawed, and moreover that some logic may be flawed at its core. The Bible says there is a way which seems right unto man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. This may very well be true of certain logic, but I also know logic to be a tool given by God whereby we may examine our world, and pure logic, as is the case with pure science, is very reliable. This is why I have taken the stance that my faith in God should outweigh my faith in logic.
I heartily agree with you the possibility of seeing God not as he is, but as we suppose he should be. After all, the heart of the second of the ten commandments is not to create a god to suit your beliefs. Thus we must trust God to reveal Himself to us. Unlike you, or perhaps like you to a different extent, I believe God has revealed Himself in the Bible, which I discuss below.
You are correct, though, in your supposition of my error, though I would and will not call it error. I believe the Bible is truth, divine truth, "God-breathed" as the Greek words translated "inspiration of God" literally means. I do not believe it a substitute for revelation; it IS revelation: direct communication delivered by God. It is NOT a book like any other, for it is God's book, direct revelation given from the heart of God, penned by human authors, preserved through His diligent faithfulness, to tell us who God is and what is His divine purpose, that being the redemption of mankind.
Think of it as a man giving dictation to a secretary (it is not the same as with God, but it will be a valid illustration). The secretary pens(let us say writing the words, for it destroys the illustration otherwise) the words exactly as the man dictates them. However, if a second secretary were to come and pen the same dictation it would appear differently that the first. Why then? Because the words are different? No, but because the authors, the actual writers, were different. The penmanship would be different, the inks would be different, perhaps even the papers would be of different quality. However, the message of the letter remains unchanged.
It is like, though again, not the same as, this with the Bible, but I feel I have gone over this before and need not do so again, or rather anymore than I have. Consider it the prompting of the Holy Spirit.

But I feel your error is in this: you say that God is not of the world. If you mean He is not of the world because it did not create Him, then you are correct. However, then one must say the world is of Him. He has made it and sustains it; it exists still only by His good pleasure(or of His longsuffering, as you may see it). He is still very active in its activities. Think you that He who died for us should not care enough to minister to our every days? That is great error, to my reason.

I believe, though, that the heart of our disagreement is over the issue of the Bible. I believe firmly that it is not just a book, but that it is God's book. I believe it is revelation. I believe it is God's direct message to all ages. I believe that its message has been preserved by God from the time of its penning to the time it reached my hands, and will be preserved till eternity, and beyond even that. I agree that God will reveal himself to those without the Bible in other ways, yet I have never heard of the man who has been saved without the truth of Christ, which come by the Bible. The Bible is my divine confidence, and without it I should flounder in uncertainty, for my logic and experience may only reach so far, and at times have proven false. I wish you also would see it as such, but I have no method to convince you. You yourself must choose: either believe it, or do not.

But I should like to know from whence you draw your confidence, your solid ground your absolute. I must be in something accepted by faith, but what I know not.

 

[K9Guardian]

I&#8217;m not sure how to answer your question, Shadow, because my faith evolved over the course of my entire life, beginning with when I first heard of God as a child up until now. As I said, I read most of the NT, but I had several different teachers who believed in several different ways about the exact same Bible. My teachers all had different ideas of what was important and how I should relate to God. Aside from that, there was the internal conflict between science and faith. I believed in the sciences; they were logical and they were observably provable. Faith is not provable; it&#8217;s just something you believe in. I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;re familiar with this divide. Anyway, with so many divisions within and without, and being unable to reconcile any of it, not really sure what to believe about the Bible itself, I had to find my own way. Most of us do, I would guess. Then some things came up, and I lost focus entirely. I simply stopped paying attention to the search for truth. When I came to, it no longer mattered. I just surrendered to life, I guess. My final conclusion? &#8220;If I have placed myself in His hands and let it all go, He will not fail me.&#8221; So in the end I chose to just have faith that as long as I loved Him and believed in Him, He would not allow me to go wrong. If I strayed, my Father would bring me back. I believed thre must be a reason, one Truth that explaine everything. And it was enough for me to know that this Reason and Truth existed.

In Him alone I could trust.

There&#8217;s a bit more to it, but I&#8217;ll finish later. If Light brings his laptop to Illinois with us, I woon&#8217;t have to wait till Sunday night.

 

[StarSplitter87]

~Star

 

[Shadowseldil]

Your reasoning makes some sense, MD, and I cannot disagree with most of it on a logical front. The one logical misconception I noticed was when you described your loss of focus, your cessation of the pursuit of truth, if I read it right. From what it seems, you trust God to bring truth to you, and rightly so; we cannot know truth apart from God. The problem is: if you are not searching for truth, you may miss it when God presents it to you. Now, perhaps I misread or misunderstood how you presented this, and perhaps you mean to say that you only stopped pursuing truth via natural methods. If so, than that is acceptable, but I still caution you to be wary so that when God brings truth to you, you do not disheed(misheed? unheed? I can't remember what the negative form of "heed" is) it. Basically, if your not paying attention, you might miss it. I know, looking back, I've done that before.
It's sort of like the illustration of the man in a sinking ship who prays that God would save him. After a while, a boat comes along and sees the sinking ship. They come along side and ask him if he needs help. The man thinks awhile and says, "No, I've asked God for help, so I shouldn't take help from man." So the ship leaves. A while later, another ship comes along with basically the same conversation. The second ship leaves. A while later, the wounded ship sinks below the waves and the man drowns. When he stands before God, he says, "I know you do all things well, Lord, but may I know why you didn't save me in the ship?" The Lord replies, "Well, I sent two ships to rescue you. Why didn't you let them?"
The point is that if we are not attentive, we may miss the answer when God gives it to us.

Now, I would also give you two cautions: First, be wary of science falsely-so-called. I am a great and strong supporter of true science, science of observation. Much science, however, is being corrupted by people who have already decided there is no God, and as I'm sure you know, true science cannot make a universal negative. True science cannot say there is no God, so be wary of any scientist who adamantly says so. Also, true science can only deal with the present, with observable facts. The past cannot be observed and neither can the future; these can only be theorized. Thus, be wary of science which claims to have proven something either past or future. Science which speculates the past is often as wrong as the weathermen who speculate the future.
The second caution is this: not to be given to misleading spirits. While it is good and appropriate to wait upon God for truth, Satan and his ministers are ever busy presenting you with lies, and it will take keen discernment to differentiate the two. That is why I find it essential to depend on the Bible to be my solid ground, for without it, I would not know truth from falsehoods as regards God. After all, the Bible says that Satan can appear as an angel of light, and his honeyed words often time seem like logic and truth. Be careful, and be discerning, lest you should take a lie for truth.

Also, as a point of clarity, I have several times read the Bible, both old and new covenants, from end to end, and am even now doing so again. I say this not as a point of bragging, or as a point to claim more authority than you, but rather to clarify that I too have knowledge of these things and am not simply repeating as I have been taught. My beliefs have been made by study, prayer, and discernment, though I too, like you, was taught these things at an early age.

Overall, I believe that you and I are mostly like-minded, save as concerns the Scripture, and perhaps you have overemphasized the sovereignty of God so as to blur some of man's free-will, but I will not judge on this point as I am only speculating. I challenge you to remain open-minded about the Bible, not yet to write it off as merely a book. Though, I suspect that you have not yet done so, and that a part of you(perhaps small and buried deep) still holds the Bible as authoritative. Who knows; perhaps I am to be the passing ship sent by God to show you better His truth. Or, perhaps there is some teaching whereby you shall refine me. You shall not convince me that the Bible is not God's divinely preserved words, but perhaps there is another matter whereby you may instruct me.

You have my prayers, friend, that God will reveal you truth, and that you will be attentive when He does. I would appreciate the same from you.