A Synopsis of Mormonism

[drstevej]

OK Tell me about Heavenly Mother.

 

[Ironhold]

Will you renounce it as error?

It's not official because no one can agree on what the official transcript should be.

JS' own notes on the matter are missing, and the people who did try to transcribe as he was speaking each recorded slightly different versions. The best anyone can do is reconcile these versions, and that's just a best guess.

 

[drstevej]

It's not official because no one can agree on what the official transcript should be.

JS' own notes on the matter are missing, and the people who did try to transcribe as he was speaking each recorded slightly different versions. The best anyone can do is reconcile these versions, and that's just a best guess.

Can you show me the various copies to see what differences they reflect. Does it impact this section?

 

[Ironhold]

Can you show me the various copies to see what differences they reflect. Does it impact this section?

The copy I got over a decade ago literally states in the forward that the transcript inside is a best guess based on a reconciliation.

Good luck trying to find a copy that isn't.

 

[Jane_Doe]

OK Tell me about Heavenly Mother.

Wow. That's a non-sequeitor topic. Unless is there a topic connect that I missed?

 

[RestoredGospelEvidences]

Couldn't the same thing be done depicting two "Pastors"?
Two "Priests"?
Two "Sommeliers"?


-

Yes, just take a look at how Atheists might depict Christianity, with the same types of methods. Or if an early anti-Christian were to present early Christian beliefs.

Here's how it might look.

"Hi, we're Christians, we are here to tell you how you can reach, & climb up the ladder to "Christian moral perfection," theosis, deification, (becoming gods or goddesses), by being greeted by Christ with different types of hand & wrist grips, before entering godhood. Working your way up the ladder of Christ like traits, was what we did. But now some of us are working hard at getting others to be saved by grace & not by works. In case you're wondering about those who didn't hear about Jesus & died, we'll say prayers & do sacraments for the dead so that they don't have to roast forever & be tourmented by black demons."

"Black demons?"

"Yes, black demons, during the pre-existence, some of the angels rebelled & so Michael & the other good bright angels fought against Satan & his angels, thrusted them out, & they fell. During their fall they were blackened. Which is why black skin people & those born blind had those types of bodies, for it hinted to their pre-mortal sins. We still depict demons & the devil as a black man sometimes, even though Emperor, Justinian, 553 AD, during the Council of Constantinople, threatened to anathma us if we continued with these beliefs. But we continued to anyways, down through the centuries, as depicted in thousands of art works all over Christendom."

"So you believe you can become gods & goddesses through your Christian mysteries that includes what?"

"In becoming a god or goddess, you get to be clothed in ascension robes, blankets that will protect you from the demons' arrows. If you're willing to become a martyr, you'll be given garments, crowns, & could pass through heavenly coronation ceremonies, where you'll be anointed, invested in white robes, crowned & enthroned, like the Virgin Mary was, & many saints before her. Our clothing also have symbols in them too, & never mind critics who claim they're masonic types. Our secret symbols, like the fish, triangles, stars, all-seeing eye in a triangle, hands extended out of clouds, are just some of our symbols which have also been vilified by early to later anti-Christians. Our secret hand clasps were done when we were being persecuted by early anti-Christians, as was also the fish symbol. Can't blame us for hiding our teachings & who we were, for we were being called a cult, revolutionaries, with secret meetings, ceremonies, oaths, & mysteries."

When we die, we'll ascend up into heaven, sometimes riding on a blanket, or ascension robe. A hand or wrist grasping angel will help up greet Saint Peter, or an angel, or Christ at the doors to paradise, where we'll give the sign of the cross, clasp hands & wrists, just like Adam & Christ did during their ascension out of hades, limbo, purgatory, the abyss, the anastasis (during the resurrection drama). Which hand clasp is the moment when deification begins. Being naked in the underworld, & ascending naked, we get clothed in white garments, which is what our secret mysteries are all about. We still have traditions that keep these ritual types alive called Whitesunday, or Whitsunday."

_______________

This is how an Atheist or early anti-Christian might depict Christainity, if the same types of cartoons were done on Christians, doing it in a way to be mocking, disrespectful, presenting doctrines & history in shocking generalizations. Etc.

Sources:

Alice K. Turner, 1993, The History of Hell, (New York, San Diego, U.S.A.; London, England: Harcourt Brace & Company).

Anna D. Kartsonis, Anastasis, The Making of An Image, (Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 1986).

A. S. Garretson, Primitive Christianity And Early Criticism, (Boston: Sherman, French & Company, 1912).

Carl Van Treeck and Aloysius Croft, M.A., Symbols in the Church, 1936.

Colleen McDannell and Bernhard Lang, Heaven: A History, (New Haven and London: Yale University Press, 1988).

Francis Legge, Forerunners And Rivals Of Christianity, (From 330 B.C. TO 330 A.D.), 2 Volumes as 1, (New Hyde Park, New York: University Books, 1964).

Fredk, WM. Hackwood, F.R.S.L., Christ Lore (Being the Legends, Traditions, Myths, Symbols, & Superstitions of The Christian Church), (London: 1902, republished, Detroit: Gale Research Company, Book Tower, 1969).

George Ferguson, Signs & Symbols In Christian Art, (New York: Oxford University Press, 1959).

Goblet D'Alviella, (The Count), The Migration of Symbols, (Westminster, 1894, reproduced by University Books, 1956).

Henry Ansgar Kelly, The Devil at baptism: Ritual, Theology, and Drama, (Ithaca and London: Cornell University Press, 1985).

Jeffrey Burton Russell, Satan, The Early Christian Tradition, (Ithaca, London: Cornell University Press, 1981). Lucifer, The Devil In the Middle Age, (Ithaca, London: Cornell University Press, 1984). The Prince of Darkness, Radical Evil and the Power of Good in History, (Ithaca, New York: Cornell University Press, 1988).

John P. Lundy, Monumental Christianity, Or the Art and Symbolism of the Primitive Church, (New York: J. W. Bouton, 1875 & 1882).

John Rupert Martin, The Illustration Of The Heavenly Ladder of John Climacus, (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1954).

J. P. Migne, Patrologiae Cursus Completus; Series Latina, 221 volumes; (Paris: 1844-1864). Patrologia Cursus Completus, Series Graeca
(Paris: 1857-1866, 161 volumes).

Rev. Alexander Hislop, The Two Babylons (or The Papal Worship Proved to be the Worship of Nimrod and His Wife), (England: A & C Black, LTD., 1916; American editions, Neptune, New Jersey: Loizeaux Brothers, 1943 and 1956).

R. Joseph Hoffmann, (translator) Celsus On The True Doctrine, (A Discourse Against the early Christians), (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1987).

Robert Louis Wilken, The Christians As The Romans Saw Them, (Yale University Press; New Haven and London, 1984).

T. W. Doane, Bible Myths, And Their Parallels In Other Religions, (New York: The Truth Seeker Company, 1882 & 1910).

Vincent Cronin, Mary Portrayed, (London, England: Darton, Longman & Todd, 1968).

Walter Lowrie, Art In The Early Church, (Washington Square, New York, New York: Pantheon Books, 1947).

W. H. C. Frend, Martyrdom & Persecution In The Early Church, (Garden City, New York: Anchor Books Doubleday & Company, 1967).

Hallenfahrt Christis, in Richard Paul Wulker, Bibliothek der Angelsachsischen Poesie, (Leipzig: Wigands, 1897), three volumes.

Himmel Hölle Fegefeuer, Das Jenseits im Mittelalter, 1994, Schweizerisches Landesmuseum, Zurich, Wilhelm Fink Verlag, Munchen

 

[Jutta2]

About Kolob, I have had a closer look at the LDS webpage:
Kolob
The star nearest the throne of God (Abr. 3:2–3, 9).
Abraham saw Kolob and the stars:Abr. 3:2–18;
The Lord’s time is reckoned according to the time of Kolob:Abr. 3:4, 9; ( Abr. 5:13; )
Source: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/kolob
It is STILL a DOCTRINE.

About the heavenly mother:

Eternal Father is the usually unspoken truth that they are also the offspring of a Eternal Mother. An exalted and glorified Man of Holiness (Moses 6:57) could not be a Father unless a Woman of like glory, perfection, and holiness was associated with him as a Mother. The begetting of children makes a man a father and a woman a mother whether we are dealing with man in his mortal or immortal state.
This doctrine that there is a Mother in Heaven was affirmed in plainness by the First Presidency of the Church (Joseph F. Smith, John R. Winder, and Anthon H. Lund) ... they said that "man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents ..." (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p.516).

"The stupendous truth of the existence of a Heavenly Mother, as well as a Heavenly Father, became established facts in Mormon theology" (Milton R. Hunter, The Gospel Through the Ages, 1958, p.98).

"The fact that there is no reference to a mother in heaven either in the Bible, Book of Mormon or Doctrine and Covenants, is not sufficient proof that no such thing as a mother did exist there.... does not common sense tell us that we must have had a mother there also?" (Answers to Gospel Questions, vol. 3, p.142).

No reference in the scriptures? Come on, don't cheat on me! For Mormons, the words of the Prophets and Apostles are "living scriptures", als Spencer W. Kimball said once.

 

[withwonderingawe]

OK Tell me about Heavenly Mother.

The Church just came out with a new statement;

https://www.lds.org/topics/mother-in-heaven?lang=eng

 

[Jane_Doe]

If you guys want to pick one topic and stick with it, then I'm game for chatting.

If you want to spam three random horribly misunderstood topics a post, then I'm out of here.

 

[withwonderingawe]

If you guys want to pick one topic and stick with it, then I'm game for chatting.

If you want to spam three random horribly misunderstood topics a post, then I'm out of here.

I'm with you, why can't they just start a new thread for each question. I think there are several questions which have gotten over looked or lost.

 

[smaneck]

I'm with you, why can't they just start a new thread for each question. I think there are several questions which have gotten over looked or lost.

As if we don't have enough anti-Mormon threads already.

 

[lazurm]

As long as people aren't infringing on the lawful rights of others, whatever they do to come to terms with what only humankind seems to be aware of: their eventual death, should be OK with anyone. In this way, atheists and believers have a lot in common. Face it, all of us self delude on one level or another. We're the way we are because our collective experiences have taught us that that's how to survive, to deal with existential angst. It's only when we restrict our basic human rights (as in the Bill of Rights) that problems occur.

By the way, if 70% of the adult population sucked their thumb I'd be happy as can be since...(overcoming embarrassment), I still do, even though it's affected my occlusion. Some habits are hard to break, some impossible to.

Let's say you looked around and 70% of the population sucked their thumbs. As a result, these people could use only one hand at a time - effectively they were missing an arm - self-handicapped. Should you politely tolerate their thumb-sucking or should you ridicule their behavior in hopes that they might break that habit and have an extra arm to use? Should you insist as a society that all children be discouraged from sucking their thumbs and if necessary place the most at-risk children in foster homes away from their thumb-sucking parents?

This is how I see religion. I look at all the intelligent, well-adjusted, well-educated religious people on this forum, and I realize that I am their inferior in every way except for one - I have begun to free my mind from religion. I think what as shame it is that all these religious people are mentally handicapped by their religious thinking. They are so much better than me in every other way, but that one handicap makes them behave so foolishly. I think about that with my own family members. Should I tolerate their religion or should I challenge it in hopes that they might free themselves?

 

[cloudyday2]

As long as people aren't infringing on the lawful rights of others, whatever they do to come to terms with what only humankind seems to be aware of: their eventual death, should be OK with anyone. In this way, atheists and believers have a lot in common. Face it, all of us self delude on one level or another. We're the way we are because our collective experiences have taught us that that's how to survive, to deal with existential angst. It's only when we restrict our basic human rights (as in the Bill of Rights) that problems occur.

That becomes less true as people become more tightly connected where the behavior of one affects the welfare of another. For example, in a nation where there is a social safety net, it is reasonable for the people who are supporting the government to somewhat resent the people who are being supported by the government. Let's say I am content to live in a housing project and I have 12 children with 12 different women that I do not help to support. I'm not infringing on anybody's lawful rights, but I'm costing society a lot of money by being a moocher. It is similar with theists. They are mooching off society with all their tax exemptions and less obvious forms of support. (BTW I don't mind helping people that need help. I think it is good for government to watch-out for people that otherwise might be swept aside. This shouldn't be left to chance through relying on charity IMO.)

By the way, if 70% of the adult population sucked their thumb I'd be happy as can be since...(overcoming embarrassment), I still do, even though it's affected my occlusion. Some habits are hard to break, some impossible to.

That is interesting. There is nothing to feel embarrassed about. We have no freewill, so it is silly to judge ourselves. Society judges people, but we of all people should cut ourselves some slack, because we know the full story of our lives.

 

[withwonderingawe]

It is similar with theists. They are mooching off society with all their tax exemptions and less obvious forms of support.

I don't know how other churches do it but the LDS church (Mormons) do pay a lot of taxes plus the members pay a lot of taxes themselves. First off they have a lot of for profit bushiness which pay taxes plus property taxes. Then we have a lot of people who work for the church and they don't get any tax break, they pay taxes on what they earn and that would include the Prophet. We don't have any special housing for a minister which would be taxed exempt. There is a building in Salt Lake where the Church has a an apartment for the Prophet but there are also three restaurants and catering services for weddings and meetings with 13 banquette rooms and a florist so a for profit building to the point of at least covering the power bill. There are several other buildings including Temple Square which would be taxed exempt but I'm sure that is offset by the 5 million visitors which come into Salt Lake every year spending money and paying taxes.

And then there is the good which all churches do for their communities. There is a Sabbaths Way near us which provides a food bank and other services which are free to those in need. We have a Bishop's warehouse where members and non members can get food ect. We run an employment center and a training center for those in need. My daughter in law worked in one when she first came to the US, taught her English better. We have a refugee program now helping with finding homes and providing work. There are also the weekly service of youth programs which most churches have, if not there then the cities would have to provided them. Most churches provide for their shut-ins, visiting and taking to doctor appointments. Many churches provided counseling and shelter for homeless and family counseling, grief and other wise. My son's ward is paying for his daughter's professional counseling, she has depression and has threaten suicide. The members have been bringing in meals as my daughter in-law has cancer. My neighbor next doors gets a meal every evening, without it she would be in a rest home provided by the state.

Anywhere in the United States or even the world when there is a flood, earthquake or tornado the Mormon Church along with many other wonderful Christian groups are in there right away with food, water, blankets, hygiene kits, tents and chain saw crews to help clean up. The government could never provided that not ever.

The LDS church has never taken a dime of tax payers money to provided the services which it gives back to the community.

 

[cloudyday2]

...
The LDS church has never taken a dime of tax payers money to provided the services which it gives back to the community.

If you google "mormon tax exemption" or "mormon tax evasion" there are quite a few articles. I don't know if these articles are accurate or not. (Lots of articles on the internet are biased and inaccurate - especially against Mormons.) ... The simplest solution is to eliminate all tax exemptions. Everybody from the Red Cross to the LDS to the Catholic Church to the Wahhabi should pay their taxes and follow the rules just like any other organization. This will be simpler and eliminate any opportunity for abuse. BTW, I don't have any reason to believe that the LDS is abusing their privileges, but there is no reason for them to have any special privileges. There is no reason for charitable contributions to be tax deductible and there is no reason for charities and religious groups to be tax exempt.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Let's say I am content to live in a housing project and I have 12 children with 12 different women that I do not help to support. I'm not infringing on anybody's lawful rights, but I'm costing society a lot of money by being a moocher. It is similar with theists. They are mooching off society with all their tax exemptions and less obvious forms of support. (BTW I don't mind helping people that need help. I think it is good for government to watch-out for people that otherwise might be swept aside. This shouldn't be left to chance through relying on charity IMO.)

I think this is an extremely flawed comparison. The essentialness of your argument (as least as I'm seeing it-- PLEASE correct me if I'm misunderstanding) is that you personally find zero benefit from the existence of religious venues, and view their lack of paying taxes as drain on your wallet, and hence resent it.

Now, I acknowledge and respect that you personally don't find any benefit from religious organizations. But since this is a societal issue, we need to look at other people in society-- whether or not there is benefit for other people in society. Speaking personally, I having God and church in my life made a literal life saving difference as it's what pulled me out of suicidal depression after sexual abuse. I learned love, self-worth, purpose, how to confide in someone, how to push forward, how to forgive.

 

[lazurm]

The welfare example you gave is, indeed, a rare one but, besides that fact, welfare increases the odds that those receiving it, including those children who are inadvertently its beneficiaries, may become tax payers in the future. It also may help in avoiding violent revolution in some respect. Additionally, the money spent aids the economy since that money pays for food, etc. Fact is that, eventually, with the advent of a robotic takeover of most of our jobs, it's quite possible that a "guaranteed income" may become the law, as it is in some parts of the world today. This helps aid an ongoing economy.

But the issue you brought up had to do with infringement of legal rights where welfare presupposes an undue burden which serves as an infringement. Yes, though there may be examples of such, it often is the price of democracy, freedom, and keeping the larger context of peace. Total fairness belong to utopian ideals, not reality. Still, as a general rule, I'll stand by my statement.

Thanks for the statement regarding thumb sucking. I'm not sure, though, that there's an equal agreement in real life, at least based on my experiences. As to freewill and whether it exists or not, too big a subject for me now! Suffice it to say that there is randomness in our universe and, so, it's very possible that freewill, in the sense of reliably being able to predict one's course in life, exists.

That becomes less true as people become more tightly connected where the behavior of one affects the welfare of another. For example, in a nation where there is a social safety net, it is reasonable for the people who are supporting the government to somewhat resent the people who are being supported by the government. Let's say I am content to live in a housing project and I have 12 children with 12 different women that I do not help to support. I'm not infringing on anybody's lawful rights, but I'm costing society a lot of money by being a moocher. It is similar with theists. They are mooching off society with all their tax exemptions and less obvious forms of support. (BTW I don't mind helping people that need help. I think it is good for government to watch-out for people that otherwise might be swept aside. This shouldn't be left to chance through relying on charity IMO.)


That is interesting. There is nothing to feel embarrassed about. We have no freewill, so it is silly to judge ourselves. Society judges people, but we of all people should cut ourselves some slack, because we know the full story of our lives.