A summary of what we see in these debates

[PsychoSarah]

Which confirms that the God they worship is not the same as the one that Christians worship. Jesus is the Creator of all things in our religion. He is part of the Trinity and equal in status but different in essence to other parts of the Godhead. He is not the Allah that the Muslims worship. He doesn't tell us to beat our wives or smite the necks of the unbelievers, but just the opposite.

Well... the bible does state how thick of a rod to use to beat slaves with though. And Jesus stated that slaves should obey their masters. It's not all good. Also, the Trinity thing varies by denomination, there are Christian denominations that treat Jesus more like the son of God than as an incarnation of God.

Personally, I am inclined to think that, based on what the bible says, both Jesus and the Godhead were present during creation week, with Jesus being more of a spectator.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Sorry, double post, darn tablet.

 

[PsychoSarah]

It may not be brutal persecution of the kind we have discussed above, but it is a mixture of character assassination, ridicule and other inappropriate behaviour is it not?

To a degree, although, with the likes of Kent Hovind around, not all of it is character assassination as much as it is identifying frauds with fake degrees. Not saying every creationist trying to get press is like that, but quite a few of the major ones are.

 

[Not_By_Chance]

Well... the bible does state how thick of a rod to use to beat slaves with though. And Jesus stated that slaves should obey their masters. It's not all good. Also, the Trinity thing varies by denomination, there are Christian denominations that treat Jesus more like the son of God than as an incarnation of God.

Personally, I am inclined to think that, based on what the bible says, both Jesus and the Godhead were present during creation week, with Jesus being more of a spectator.

I'm not sure which part of the Bible you are referring to about the rod, so if you can quote the verse, I can have a look. Also, I'm not an expert historian, but I have been told that slaves in Jesus's time on earth weren't the same type of brutalised slaves that we normally think of, like those that lived in the American south in more recent times or the Hebrew slaves in ancient Egypt, but were more like part of the family, often living much better than beggars in the street, but as I say, I don't know that much about it.

Regarding Christ's involvement in creation, we have to look at the first chapter of John, where we read:-
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
Joh 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Joh 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Joh 1:15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.'"

 

[Not_By_Chance]

To a degree, although, with the likes of Kent Hovind around, not all of it is character assassination as much as it is identifying frauds with fake degrees. Not saying every creationist trying to get press is like that, but quite a few of the major ones are.

You will get a flavour of the sort of attacks that creationists receive if you have a look at this article. This is supposed to be from someone who claims to be a Christian. The comments that follow the article are worth reading as well.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Maybe not on such a large scale of course, but I'm sure that the scenes in the film "God is [not] Dead" concerning the female muslim student having to hide her secret conversion to Christianity could well be taking place behind closed doors in some of our ethnic minority communities (Heck, we even have Shariah Law courts in the UK). For certain, Christians are facing torture, death, economic ruin, imprisonment, etc for having such beliefs in many Arab and far eastern countries. Just take a look at the Open Doors web site and you'll get an idea of scale of the problem. The hatred and intolerance of those countries is in stark contrast to Jesus' teaching to "love your neighbour" and "do good to those who persecute you." Never did our Lord ever tell anyone to go out and kill anyone in His name, so if anyone is thinking of bringing up violent history from past so-called Christian crusades, burning people at the stake, etc, I would simple say that they were not following Jesus's teachings and were therefore not Christians but doing the works of the devil. Even Peter the disciple was rebuked by Jesus for his ungodly thoughts and that was nothing compared to what man has done since -
Mat 16:23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

You do realize that the movie "God is [not] Dead" was a silly Christian puff piece with complete misrepresentations of people of other beliefs, don't you? It was a very dishonest piece of fiction and is a red herring at best.

Yes, Christians do face persecution in Arab countries, but then so do other religions. Try being a Baha'i in Iran. If caught your options are usually admitting the you were wrong and apologizing or death:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Bahá'ís

Religious countries tend to persecute those of different religions. Christians used to persecute Jews, Muslims persecute Jews, Christians and especially offshoots of their own faith. I am sure there are examples of Hindu and Buddhist persecution too.

Creationists on the other hand are laughed at for being foolish and wrong. They are laughed at because they deny reality. That is far from persecution.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You will get a flavour of the sort of attacks that creationists receive if you have a look at this article. This is supposed to be from someone who claims to be a Christian. The comments that follow the article are worth reading as well.

Quite amusing. The poor fools at CMI are insulted when the truth is told about them and they call it a "personal attack". When someone claims out loud for the whole world to hear that 2 + 2 = 5 people would be correct to laugh at that persons mathematical abilities, especially if he claims that the math of everyone else is false and provides no evidence except for links to his own crazy website or by misinterpreting the work of others. The plain and simple fact is that many creationists make a false idol of the Bible. They treat the Bible and not the message that it has as a God to be worshiped and not questioned. Can you find one point that the writer of the letter made where he was wrong?

 

[Not_By_Chance]

Can you find one point that the writer of the letter made where he was wrong?

It would be easier to ask whether I could find one point that he said was right! I agree whole-heartedly with the detailed reply and most if not all of the readers' comments that follow.

 

[Not_By_Chance]

They are laughed at because they deny reality

You mean, the sort of reality where universes or even multverses can pop into existence out of nothing or life can come from non-living chemicals? I wonder who is denying reality here?

 

[Not_By_Chance]

They are laughed at because they deny reality. That is far from persecution.

It is if it denies them their livelihood as has apparently happened. It is if it tries to make fools out of them, just because they won't conform to the majority. Why do you think we have laws against slander?

 

[Astrophile]

The following article is a summary of the sort of attacks that creation-believing Christians often come across on a regular basis. Creation-believing Christians will recognise many of these attacks.

The simple fact is that young-earth creationism and flood geology are wrong. Every substantial claim made by young-earth creationists has been disproved over and over again. Anybody who tries to learn about these matters, and who studies books and scientific papers written by professional biologists and geologists, or who takes a college or university course in these subjects, will realise this.

Young-earth creationism is so far removed from science that most
scientists do not bother to refute it, any more than astronomers bother to refute the claims of astrology, chemists to refute the claims of alchemy, or archaeologists to refute the claims of Erich von Daniken and his sort. To do so would merely be a distraction from their proper work.

I am not saying anything about the character of 'creation-believing Christians', or their motives for rejecting the findings of science. All I am saying is that what they believe is false. In a phrase that creationists themselves like to use, 'creation science' is 'science falsely so called'.

 

[Astrophile]

You mean, the sort of reality where universes or even multverses can pop into existence out of nothing or life can come from non-living chemicals? I wonder who is denying reality here?

Write a paper that proves that universes and multiverses cannot pop into existence out of nothing, or a paper that proves that life cannot come from non-living chemicals, and submit it to an astrophysical or biological journal. You will become famous; you will be hailed as the new Einstein, or the new Hawking or the new Darwin. What are you waiting for?

 

[Murby]

That's how all religions keep their believers, they stop dissent before it starts by keeping other opinions out, they shut them down before they can even be voiced because it's well known that open discussion kills all religions dead.

Exactly..

Why is asking questions of creationists seen as an attack on creationism?

Defensive Mechanism.

-_- try asking my fiancé what it is like to be openly atheist in the Southern part of the United States.

Oh boy.. That would be horrible.

It may not be brutal persecution of the kind we have discussed above, but it is a mixture of character assassination, ridicule and other inappropriate behaviour is it not?

Not really.. it would be inappropriate to allow someone to continue to believe falsified assumptions when they don't know any better. Additionally, it was also be irresponsible to allow them to spread those falsified assumptions without challenge. Propaganda is a powerful tool and sometimes its important to fight against it's message.

You will get a flavour of the sort of attacks that creationists receive if you have a look at this article. This is supposed to be from someone who claims to be a Christian. The comments that follow the article are worth reading as well.

The links to the original article came from creation dot com.. Believing in anything they say is like consulting a fox on how to build a hen house. Source is important when reading anything.. my favorite is wiki.

Quite amusing. The poor fools at CMI are insulted when the truth is told about them and they call it a "personal attack". When someone claims out loud for the whole world to hear that 2 + 2 = 5 people would be correct to laugh at that persons mathematical abilities, especially if he claims that the math of everyone else is false and provides no evidence except for links to his own crazy website or by misinterpreting the work of others. The plain and simple fact is that many creationists make a false idol of the Bible. They treat the Bible and not the message that it has as a God to be worshiped and not questioned. Can you find one point that the writer of the letter made where he was wrong?

Ya.. that.. good enough to quote and post again. +1

 

[Not_By_Chance]

Write a paper that proves that universes and multiverses cannot pop into existence out of nothing, or a paper that proves that life cannot come from non-living chemicals, and submit it to an astrophysical or biological journal. You will become famous; you will be hailed as the new Einstein, or the new Hawking or the new Darwin. What are you waiting for?

No need - you want to believe that stuff, that's up to you. Even the stories that J K Rowling writes is more believable than that.

it would be inappropriate to allow someone to continue to believe falsified assumptions when they don't know any better.

That's probably why the creation scientists have released their excellent DVD "Evolution's Achilles' Heels" Praise The Lord for such Godly organisations.

 

[Murby]

That's probably why the creation scientists have released their excellent DVD "Evolution's Achilles' Heels" Praise The Lord for such Godly organisations.

Didn't read it.. should I assume its the same rift raft type of garbage that they covered during the Edwards v. Aguillard supreme court hearings?

They always seem focused on some insignificant thing that scientist have not yet proven conclusively, and then postulate an argument that basically says "If science can't explain it, then it must be god".. its the same thing over and over and over..

 

[Loudmouth]

They may be, but they don't believe in the same Creator as Christians.

You care claiming that you are being persecuted by anti-creationists. How are you being persecuted?

 

[Loudmouth]

You mean, the sort of reality where universes or even multverses can pop into existence out of nothing or life can come from non-living chemicals? I wonder who is denying reality here?

Life coming from non-living chemicals is what creationists believe in.

 

[Loudmouth]

No need - you want to believe that stuff, that's up to you. Even the stories that J K Rowling writes is more believable than that.
That's probably why the creation scientists have released their excellent DVD "Evolution's Achilles' Heels" Praise The Lord for such Godly organisations.

Why do you think these creation scientists run away from the scientific arena where their claims can be properly judged?

 

[Hoghead1]

If I were you, Not By Chance, I would out no more credibility in creation science than I would in a snake-oil salesman. Creation science is basically a propaganda mill where individuals to make a dishonest living by presenting deliberately falsified information to the public. Let's take a common example for this site. Let's talk about Darwin and the finches. As the innocent victims of propaganda, many here state that Darwin blew it with the finches, he misidentified them as species, and that this disproves evolution. Pure propaganda. In point of fact, there is nothing in the historical record, nothing in the writings or papers of Darwin, to suggest that the finches played a major central role in his thinking. Contrary to popular propaganda, Darwin did not identify the various species of finches. He did a tentative evaluation and then handed the matter over to a world-renown ornithologist to make the final call. He concluded there were more species of finches here than Darwin had thought. Contrary to creation-science propaganda, the DNA research did not disprove Darwin. The Grants, the researchers on DNA, stated that among some of the species of finches, teh DNA proved more similar than one might expect. They surmised this meant that separate species can inbreed and that this had happened with the finches. That is but one part of a long debate whether the breeding situation is a clear marker of a species. Also, as yet, there is no set standard of how much difference there has to be in DNA before you recognize a separate species.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Maybe not on such a large scale of course, but I'm sure that the scenes in the film "God is [not] Dead" concerning the female muslim student having to hide her secret conversion to Christianity could well be taking place behind closed doors in some of our ethnic minority communities (Heck, we even have Shariah Law courts in the UK). For certain, Christians are facing torture, death, economic ruin, imprisonment, etc for having such beliefs in many Arab and far eastern countries.

Right, right...... and muslims in the US are treated with the outmost respect, all the time, ha?

As for backwards sh*tholes in the middle east, it's not just christianity there that gets oppressed. It's every religion that is not Islam. In fact, including islam, if the that islam is not the right flavour of Islam according the country in question.

Don't play the victim card here....
In those countries, atheists, budhists, hindu's, jews, .... face the exact same oppression as christians do.