• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

A Strange Debate

Status
Not open for further replies.

stranger

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2003
5,927
143
crying in the wilderness of life
✟7,026.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Greens
Why would I have to take and pass a test you created to be a saint?

That is just it, I didn't create it, God did ... its all in the scripture , and the fact that you cannot even answer these very elementary questions which can be answered from scripture even without spirit baptism is rather telling of how little scripture you know ...

Do not look on it as a test then, just answer the questions , give an account of your beliefs as God requiires all saints to do when asked ...
 
Upvote 0

CShephard53

Somebody shut me up so I can live out loud!
Mar 15, 2007
4,551
151
✟28,231.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
If one had faith in God then one would obey Him and stop sinning because one knew He was right about love being the only way ...
False theology, see below in Romans 6...
as a sinner one is not a saint because one does not have complete faith in God to stop all sin ,
Evidence?
as Paul puts it [Rom 6] :-
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
Rom 6:2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
Rom 6:7 for he who has died is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
Rom 6:9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
Rom 6:10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
Rom 6:11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Rom 6:12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
Rom 6:13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
Rom 6:16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
Rom 6:18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.
Rom 6:20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
Rom 6:21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I love how you take things out of context...

'continue in sin', verse 1, continue:
G1961
ἐπιμένω
epimenō
Thayer Definition:
1) to stay at or with, to tarry still, still to abide, to continue, remain
1a) of tarrying in a place
1b) to persevere, continue
1b1) of the thing continued in
1b2) in the work of teaching
1b3) of the blessing for which one keeps himself fit
1b4) denoting the action persisted in
Part of Speech: verb

It's not talking about slipping every once in awhile here...


Heb 10:15 And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,
Heb 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM," He then says,
Heb 10:17 "AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 10:18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.
Heb 10:19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,
Heb 10:21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God,
Heb 10:22 let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;
Heb 10:24 and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds,
Heb 10:25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.
Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
Heb 10:28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

or as John puts it :-
1Jn 3:7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
1Jn 3:8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
1Jn 3:11 For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another;
1Jn 3:12 not as Cain, who was of the evil one and slew his brother. And for what reason did he slay him? Because his deeds were evil, and his brother's were righteous.

Practice, as it's used every time in that quotation:
G4160
ποιέω
poieō
Thayer Definition:
1) to make
1a) with the names of things made, to produce, construct, form, fashion, etc.
1b) to be the authors of, the cause
1c) to make ready, to prepare
1d) to produce, bear, shoot forth
1e) to acquire, to provide a thing for one’s self
1f) to make a thing out of something
1g) to (make, i.e.) render one anything
1g1) to (make, i.e.) constitute or appoint one anything, to appoint or ordain one that
1g2) to (make, i.e.) declare one anything
1h) to put one forth, to lead him out
1i) to make one do something
1i1) cause one to
1j) to be the authors of a thing (to cause, bring about)
2) to do
2a) to act rightly, do well
2a1) to carry out, to execute
2b) to do a thing unto one
2b1) to do to one
2c) with designation of time: to pass, spend
2d) to celebrate, keep
2d1) to make ready, and so at the same time to institute, the celebration of the passover
2e) to perform: to a promise
Part of Speech: verb

It's talking about a lifestyle. Not missing the mark.


And Peter :-
Grace then for the few covers only sins before spirit baptism, it is no licenec to continue hiding and think that Jesus is some kind of whipping boy ...
Jesus is not just a whipping boy. What's your point? Grace covers those who have faith, repent, and confess.
one is redeemed if one ceases to sin [Ezek 18:21] ,not if one continues a sinner...
Wrong. One is redeemed by grace through faith in Christ Jesus (Romans 10:9-10, Ephesians 2:8-10).

2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;
2Pe 2:5 and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2Pe 2:6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;
2Pe 2:7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men
2Pe 2:8 (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds),
2Pe 2:9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,
2Pe 2:10 and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties,
2Pe 2:11 whereas angels who are greater in might and power do not bring a reviling judgment against them before the Lord.
2Pe 2:12 But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,
2Pe 2:13 suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong. They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, as they carouse with you,
2Pe 2:14 having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children;
2Pe 2:15 forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
2Pe 2:16 but he received a rebuke for his own transgression, for a mute donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet.

Your verse quotation doesn't come close to what you think it does.

Repentance comes AFTER baptism of the spiriit :-
Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Rom 11:28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
Rom 11:29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

G278
ἀμεταμέλητος
ametamelētos
Thayer Definition:
1) not repentant of, unregretted
Part of Speech: adjective


rather obviously one cannot repent fully until God has unveiled all the truth about oneself which one lives in denial of ...
Repentance is a process that is not complete until you're dead and in heaven, but starts on earth.

Thus pretending one has repented by just repenting a few things that come to mind is nothing like the full repentance on has once one has called o the name of God... equally one would know that God rejected one as a sinner if one called on the name of God [but many sinners have died from dong so, and not surprisingly]
Do you know what repentance is? Turning around, changing your mind. Change from the inside out, a 180. I'm using a biblical term found in the Bible, using it the same way the Bible does when I say repentance.

One cannot confess either until one knows waht the christ is and what the antichrist is , else, like all who remain in sin, one is confessing the image created by Satan [Rev 13:3-8]
Where is that in the Bible? You can't confess unless?
Thus it seems pertinent to ask what you think the Christ is ...?
What? Christ is not a what. Christ is a who. Christ literally means anointed one. In the popular sense, Christ is the savior of all mankind- Jesus. In which case, He'd be God and all that implies and means.
 
Upvote 0

CShephard53

Somebody shut me up so I can live out loud!
Mar 15, 2007
4,551
151
✟28,231.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
That is just it, I didn't create it, God did ... its all in the scripture , and the fact that you cannot even answer these very elementary questions which can be answered from scripture even without spirit baptism is rather telling of how little scripture you know ...
Then give Bible verses for every single requirement you list of being a requirement for sainthood. None of the ones you list are evidence. I had a big long reply to you that included all 60 verses, and it got eaten.

Do not look on it as a test then, just answer the questions , give an account of your beliefs as God requiires all saints to do when asked ...
I will not play your games.
I do not ignore the original language , I have many reference books and a vast range of translations and am stugying Greek and Hebrew, also studying parallel usage of words in scripture to see what the words meant at the time of writing, which can be very different than their modern meaning
Interesting, you haven't stated any of them as sources. I have.
[so you can easily be fooled by your curious faith in dictionaries , [and I wonder why a saint needs the scripture explined by a dictionary if God has baptised him to come to know all truth ? -John 16:13 -
That is not a valid argument. It's not even an argument. I use dictionaries as tools. Your claim is false, as is your interpretation of that verse.
Joh 16:13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

Guide. Not give truth all at once. 'Disclose to you what is to come', God's timing, likely talking about Revelation and the other similar Scriptures...
why you want to 'debate' at all if yo know all the truth ... and how on earth could a saint make the mistakes you do ? ][/QUOTE]
Your accusations are flattering. Quit the ad hominem.
 
Upvote 0

stranger

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2003
5,927
143
crying in the wilderness of life
✟7,026.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Greens
Where does this state that they avoid eternal punishment?

I already showed you one place, do you require more for some reason? I would need to know why you reject Jesus's statement first :-

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

The point being that if all creation really accepts Jesus as Lord [i.e. obeys him as stops all sin] , then that is enough for redemption of all to spirit , and there can be no 'eternal punishment'

But equally the word rendered as 'eternal' does not mena 'eternal' in teh original language, it means 'lasting an aeon' , which is a very important distinction to male ... we know from Physis and from scripture taht time comes to an end, that the idea of an eternity of time was a false idea invented by men, there is no such thing in our reality... thus the mistranslation is exposed many ways , both by being inconsistent with the rest of scripture [apart from exactly the same root being mistranslated in some other places too ]

One can hardly say god will wipe away all tears if any is still suffering terribly, I for one would not stop weeping for any left out of paradise at the end :-

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

How could one habve punishment without pain ? ...without tears for those obliged to watch?... how could a loving God let anyone become eternal without following Jesus, it would show that Jesus is NOT the only way of ' life ' beyond time ... this is inconsistent with scripture and tus a starnge thing for so many to believe who have bibles that show it is nonsense...

Where does it state that they escape hell?

I already sowed you twice, so this is the llast time I am permitted by scripture to exhort you to follow it... so please read it and understand it this time from Jesus , not me :-

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Hell = eternal punishment in popular terms.

I could hope that you are joking ... what does it matter what even a billion sinners believe who were taught it by other sinners? Suirely we already agreed to use the scripture, not popular myths that are easily disproven by God's word...
 
Upvote 0

CShephard53

Somebody shut me up so I can live out loud!
Mar 15, 2007
4,551
151
✟28,231.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I am simply trying to integrate the scripture into the uniquely-defined truth it claims to be, I make no claims of myself, but simply summarise what I have found so far... clearly it takes much work to show all the stages in the integration , so i start at the base and work up... but there is little point in spending time doing that with a saint because he would know already ,so i start with a summary and then go as deeply as required into how scripture leads to that ... that way , in principle ,one does not waste so much time
Nice try avoiding admitting you've made claims. Anyone viewing this thread can see you've made claims. Back them, or you will be seen as discredited.
... but it is useless to even try with anyone who closed their minds BEFORE understanding every word
Ad hominem. Fallacy.
... clearly one cannot really believe scripture until one understands it, so people say that but simply and very obviously delude themselves , since when one investigates they are not the saints they claim to be at all ... one gets nowhere with those who think they know before understanding it all as one truth , they have fixed their beliefe and end up asserting it even against scripture written before their own eyes in their own bible... this is the extent of Satan's control over most men ... so you need to stop and see that you made mistakes, that you are not a saint but a sinnerm, that you still have things to learn and God has not revealed all truth toyou, nor is your love, humility, patience perfect... then we can progress with reproof of both our current positions closer to the scripture, else we are wasting our time... there is no point in 'debate' where any 'side' is trying to show they are right , rather the only thing taht makes sense is to co-operate in seeking to understand what scripture says ... here are no sides, there is no preconclusion , we start from knwoing taht as sinners we do not knoww, and are simply littel children trying to learn what Daddy has had written down because He won't talk to us if we are to be sinners still by Jesus' return ...
Nice ramble. You made claims. You back them. The burden of proof is still on you, no matter how you try to get out of it.
 
Upvote 0

stranger

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2003
5,927
143
crying in the wilderness of life
✟7,026.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Greens
False theology...

My frend , I have no 'theology' , I do not even believe in theology, one cannot study God, and one cannot have a creed unless one is a saint [and then one's creed is the holy spirit, not words, not even scripture although one's creed is at least consistent with all scripture]

So please stop being contentious and get co-operative, loving ... that is the only point in continuing this ... accept that God is bright and stop trying to prove that you are ...then we can go as deeply as we like into scripture to reprove all points until we agree that God is right, not us... integrate the whole before decidiung what to believe , do not believe and then fit the scriptures as best you can to waht you decided beforehand ...
 
Upvote 0

CShephard53

Somebody shut me up so I can live out loud!
Mar 15, 2007
4,551
151
✟28,231.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I already showed you one place, do you require more for some reason?
I think I already explained that.
I would need to know why you reject Jesus's statement first :-
Ad hominem. Fallacy.

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
They are judged, per Revelation 21:8.
The point being that if all creation really accepts Jesus as Lord [i.e. obeys him as stops all sin] , then that is enough for redemption of all to spirit , and there can be no 'eternal punishment'
There is eternal punishment, because before they die not everyone accepts Jesus as Lord. They are judged according to what they did while they were alive, not when they're dead.

But equally the word rendered as 'eternal' does not mena 'eternal' in teh original language, it means 'lasting an aeon' , which is a very important distinction to male ... we know from Physis and from scripture taht time comes to an end, that the idea of an eternity of time was a false idea invented by men, there is no such thing in our reality... thus the mistranslation is exposed many ways , both by being inconsistent with the rest of scripture [apart from exactly the same root being mistranslated in some other places too ]
Source? But really, anyone reading the meaning will know that it has multiple meanings and very rarely is it used as you claim. A simple search on bible.crosswalk.com will show that.


One can hardly say god will wipe away all tears if any is still suffering terribly, I for one would not stop weeping for any left out of paradise at the end :-
That's during eternal life. You don't know what you'll do during eternal life. You're going to disagree with the Bible?
Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Yup...

How could one habve punishment without pain ? ...without tears for those obliged to watch?... how could a loving God let anyone become eternal without following Jesus, it would show that Jesus is NOT the only way of ' life ' beyond time ... this is inconsistent with scripture and tus a starnge thing for so many to believe who have bibles that show it is nonsense...
Claims. Have any evidence for them?



I already sowed you twice, so this is the llast time I am permitted by scripture to exhort you to follow it... so please read it and understand it this time from Jesus , not me :-
Really, don't flatter yourself. Don't equate your ideas with Jesus' ideas. It's insulting.

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Already addressed it.



I could hope that you are joking ... what does it matter what even a billion sinners believe who were taught it by other sinners? Suirely we already agreed to use the scripture, not popular myths that are easily disproven by God's word...
Yet you have no evidence to back what you claim...
 
Upvote 0

CShephard53

Somebody shut me up so I can live out loud!
Mar 15, 2007
4,551
151
✟28,231.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
My frend , I have no 'theology' , I do not even believe in theology, one cannot study God, and one cannot have a creed unless one is a saint [and then one's creed is the holy spirit, not words, not even scripture although one's creed is at least consistent with all scripture]
That is far beyond the point.

So please stop being contentious and get co-operative, loving ...
Coming from someone who has used ad hominem, or attacked my person at least three times now. Show me where I've returned the favor.
that is the only point in continuing this ... accept that God is bright and stop trying to prove that you are ...t
I know I won't understand everything. Don't accuse me of things you don't know are true.
hen we can go as deeply as we like into scripture to reprove all points until we agree that God is right, not us... integrate the whole before decidiung what to believe , do not believe and then fit the scriptures as best you can to waht you decided beforehand ...
God is written about in the Bible. The Bible is for me in English. I have to look at the literary style and original language to determine what it says, and the culture. See that you do the same.
 
Upvote 0

stranger

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2003
5,927
143
crying in the wilderness of life
✟7,026.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Greens
Anyone viewing this thread can see you've made claims. Back them, or you will be seen as discredited.
As it happens I am working systematically to show you the scriptures from which my statemnets were summaries... but you keep ignoring the scriptures I quote ,so i am having to repeat then =m two and three times ...

You will learn too eventually that all the credit goes to God, you ahve gone very wrong in attitude if you seek credit or value credit, from sinners for what one simply repeats from God's prophets and saints...

You still seem to think that i am trying to sell you something, or seeking credit for God's words, but neither is true... I am the one who gains if someone shows me I have made a mistake... and I seek no credit for God;'s words, His s the only credit for anything...

As for 'discrediting' a sinner who makes a mistake... there are no points to gain or lose here, we either gain God's truth from the scripture ,or we lose the opportunity here to do so... stop turning it into a contest or a sideshow, it ain't ... it is simply the task of reproving to scripture and it i hard enough without trying to add or take away from that ...
 
Upvote 0

CShephard53

Somebody shut me up so I can live out loud!
Mar 15, 2007
4,551
151
✟28,231.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
You will learn too eventually that all the credit goes to God, you ahve gone very wrong in attitude if you seek credit or value credit, from sinners for what one simply repeats from God's prophets and saints...

You still seem to think that i am trying to sell you something, or seeking credit for God's words, but neither is true... I am the one who gains if someone shows me I have made a mistake... and I seek no credit for God;'s words, His s the only credit for anything...

As for 'discrediting' a sinner who makes a mistake... there are no poits to gain or lose here, we either gain God's truth from the scripture ,or we lose the opportunity here to do so... stop turning it into a contest or a sideshow, it ain't ... it is simply the task of reproving to scripture and it i hard enough without trying to add or take away from that ...
Welcome to debate. Learn how it works before you engage in it next time. Learn what a fallacy is. Learn what the point is.
 
Upvote 0

stranger

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2003
5,927
143
crying in the wilderness of life
✟7,026.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Greens
James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us[saints?] with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Where does this talk about Jews?

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth,...

The word of truth is spirit baptism {John 16:13]

Spirit baptsim is the seal of those departing from sin [saints] by menas of using this truth to defeat Satan;'s temptations

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

those sealed are listed in Rev 7:3-8 as the descendants of Jacob ['children of Israel] listed by the name of the son of Jacob from whom they are descended [genetically for almost all or by legal joining to Israel for a few ]

As I said, but you ignored they are NOT all Jews , in fact most may not be Jews, but they are all Israelites , most of them of the House of Israel which never accepted Judaism, never were Jews, never became Jews , never followed Judaism at any time ...worshippeed idols and continued to do so even after being scattered

Deuteronomy 28:64 And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.

The House of Israel is a nation that is no longer a [recognisable] people , they are true Israelites, but never were Jews , but ahve lived scattered amongst the gentiles for three millenia and likely do not even know themselves that they are not gentiles ...

These are they whom Jesus said he came for, because his task is to re-unite all Israel into a nation of priests for the kingdom of God , as promised to Moses :-

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Ezekiel 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

The messiah [or 'christos' in Greek] is this annointed king of Israel [whom most Jews still await] , that is why he is sent to them ,gathering first perdominently the House of Israel, so that the Jews become jealous of the knowledge of the one they believe is THEIR messiah that is held by 'idolatous gentiles' , the House of Israel that Jews rejected long ago :-

Deuteronomy 32:21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

Isaiah 7:8 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Note then that the House of Israel are not Jews, but are Israelites and heirs to the promise through Jacob... and that they are one of only two Houses mentioned in the new covenant of grace [Heb 8:8-12. jer 31:31-34] , they are forgiven now and are taken as God's people, though they as idolatous paganised rejected outcasts hardly can merit it , God set His name ofn them and WILL show His power b redeeming them first ... thus the tribes of Joseph and Manasseh mentioned by Jesus as firstfruit saints in Rev 7:3-8 ae indeed both part of the House of Israel, taken at Jesus' return.. to begin the re-uniting of Israel under one king , the Christ, the Messiah, Jesus the Jew of Judah ...

The whole scripture then needs to be brought together even for a simple point to be understood excatly consistent with it all ... it is not a matter of just looking at one-liners, but integrating the whole to get rid of the massive quantity of pricvate interpretations abounding in this evil time, from sinners not saints, because saints come to agree as one by menas of God's own spirit that seals them as saints, no longer sinners...

Thus looking only at one-liners is not good enough at all, one has to have read and understood the whole as one truthm, the OT in particular explains the meaning of all the terms and symbols in the ne testament since that is where they come from.... equally the NT expounds relations between the OT symbols, so by combining the two [something neither most jews , nor most christians would even consider doing] gives one a unique interpretation , gets rid of all mof modern christianity very quickly and lets opne see what God is really talkking about in scripture, that the gospelmof Christ is about the king come first to re-unite all Israel into a nation of priests, and that those priests minister only afterward, after the second resurrection, to redeem the inumerably many gentiles ...Rev 7: 3-10
 
Upvote 0

stranger

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2003
5,927
143
crying in the wilderness of life
✟7,026.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Greens
The Bible is for me in English. I have to look at the literary style and original language to determine what it says, and the culture

Since even modern jews do not understand all the idioms of ancient Hebrew [and misunderstand them through religious tradition] and Hebrew is a tiny language that relies thus extensively upon idiom, then all of us struggle to understand the original meanings , the best we can do is to look at parallel usage when it occurs and deduce the original meaning from multiple usages ... it is a slow process ... hard work ...simply looking at the rather atricious English renderings in our translations reveals that the translators were biased by beliefs in their churches, churches run by sinners , not knowing all truth of God... a lifetime of study will not unravel all the distortion put upon scripture by siners into whose hands it has been delivered throughout almost two millenia... we only seek its truths by such hard menas because we are sinners whom God will not yet impart all His truth to , the saints have no need of scripture except as proof that the prophecies were indeed wroitten long ago , they get all truth from God, have no need to teach each other because they know :-

Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

That is all Israel eventually, first of all, both the Jews [even those who still do not accept Jesus yet] and the paganised idolatous House of Israel..

The main role of the bible then is to keep sinners waiting in the bye-lines until god is ready to redeem them, allowing Satan to delude almost all men in this earth [Rev 13:3-8] bar a few of Israel, is chosen predestinated few saints of this life who find the strait narrow way because God baptises them to know all His truth now ....

So it is that the bible , originally kept by Jews only , when it was in scrolls, has been taken amongst the gentiles because that is where the House of Israel is who need to be awakened to its real gospel , that Jesus came for the House of Israel and is the promised king come to re0-unite them with the Jews...

But Paul then, teaching the gentiles themselves , not just Israelites, the truth about Israel... how could that lead anywhere but modern divided religion without the holy spirit to unify it ...?

Wha use then following teachings of sinners or believing that scripture flavoured by sinners can be true unless one undoes the bias [by menas of known historical changes in 'christian' beliefs, so that one has good idea of the false doictrines held by those at vthe time of any given tanslation...

If one believed the 'English Bible' then one would think that sabbath was Sunday because sabbath is simply translated as Sunday within it ... history and scripture however prove that this is just a bias in transaltion, the translation is only useful if you know the bias of its translator... else it would be impossible to rationalise the variety and differences in bibles , the variety and differences in source scroll copies too...
 
Upvote 0

stranger

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2003
5,927
143
crying in the wilderness of life
✟7,026.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Greens
What Bible are you using?

I use every bible I acn lay my hands on, and have very many different bibles and separate OT and NT indeed... I usually quote form the KJV because most people i think use that , and I like it's poetic approach to poetic scripture ,but hate its sloppy translations taht have led so very many astray [see the list of thousands of errors in the back of Robert Young's Concordance] .. I know so much about its errors that they are not a great problem , and many of them exist in other bibles because they were mostly just variations on the KJV favoured by this or that church group... or indeed driven by the same false doctrines within christianity that led to the poor translation in the first place.... so i don't usually write KJV against quotes because that is what most people use it seems, a default almost... but Iwill do so when quoting say from Rotherham's Emphasised Bible [REB} for instance , which corrects some of the errors in the KJV, whilst adding his own slant to scripture ... sigh!
 
Upvote 0

stranger

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2003
5,927
143
crying in the wilderness of life
✟7,026.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Greens
Where does this talk about Jews? Or the 144000?
we are not talking about just Jews, we are talking about Israelites, the Jews AND the paganised idolatous House of Israel [living as gentiles amongst the gentiles, never ever accepting Judaism, but truly Israelites, just not Jews]

The Israelites of the 144,000 are discussed by Jesus in Rev 7 and Rev 14 ... again I would tend to assume that you knew this as a saint or simply from reading it ... why make me spell it out if you know it already ??? I cannot spell out all the scripture vfor you, you must read it for yourself ... I can only point out a few passages, you must read the context and the rest of scripture for yourself... I have to assume you will and would assume any saint knows more than teh scripture anyway , so what game are u playing here... I cannot do the work for you, you have to pray to god to understand, and you ahve to meditate to listen to Him ,shut down the ceasless chatter of thought and you will hear Him clear as crystal , then you can go back and check on what you got in the scripture... a slow process, but it works fine until one is baptised of the spirit and learns far more quickly all truth... one can hardly presume that it will be in this life though...
 
Upvote 0

stranger

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2003
5,927
143
crying in the wilderness of life
✟7,026.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Greens
I did not deny that firstfruits is never in the Bible. I asked specifically where it says they go first, per your claims.

You want to know where it says the FIRST fruits are FIRST ? Hmmm... is a first fruit not first because it says so ? the word first is in firstfruit, so it is first in some sense...

So look and see where the 144,000 sealed by teh holy spirit to be saints are redeemed ... Rev 7:3-10 ... the many are saved "AFTER THIS" [rev 7:9] so the 144,000 are first ... and they are fruits of the spirit because , as it says in rev 7:3-4 they are sealed by the spirit of truth , God;'s holy spirit... the very same thing that seals the saints to depart from sin and privides all truth to them to do so...

So the few are first who wnet by the narrow way of sainthood in this world, themany are after... but after the first resurrection [of the just] there is only the second resurrection which could be for the many [unjust, sinners , in this earth, freed from sin by death] ... so God simply gets His declared priesthood ready first , it makes sense that he needs to do it that way around does it not? The first priests are needed at the beginning , not after the second resurrection , the kingdom has to be readied before accepting billions of gentles for redemption by baptising them [all three baptisms] , so they also become saints, but in the new earth kingdom come to all men, not in this life, not before Jesus' return to take just the few ...
 
Upvote 0

stranger

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2003
5,927
143
crying in the wilderness of life
✟7,026.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Greens
Yet your words claim that the 144000 go to God first- go to heaven first. You have not presented a single Scripture that backs this.

Again I claim nothing, i mmerely summarised the scripture first to see if you had raed it and we had no need to plough through it all ... simply because there is too much to plough through every point, and it only makes sense then to discuss the scripture relating most closely to points that are not unanimously agreed...

The task is vast, ebyod a lifetime's work, so use the most efficient method , else you get less work done in a given time... less done by a large ammount in a lifetime ... be more patient, then we can discuss more scripture and less about what we are doing ... it was a reasonable presumption by me that you had heard of the translation of those resurrected at Jesus' return, but it is no probelm to point it out if you have never read and understood this :-

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
 
Upvote 0

stranger

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2003
5,927
143
crying in the wilderness of life
✟7,026.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Greens
you do not present Scriptures that back your claims don't get you anything except a loss of credibility. Both in the eyes of your opponent, and in the eyes of the audience.
My friend, if you stop telling me that I have not presented them and let me get on with doing so after you ahve made it clear that you do not see that point, then we shall make some progress faster perhaps , I am happy to present teh scriptures if you do not recognise them, but i have no concern to be credible, only the scriptures have that, I seek no credit whatever and do not desire you tobelieve me, but to read the scriptures and see what you make of them, see if it is what I make of them, and then use more scriptures to iron out any differences , so that we both move closer tahn we are to God's truth ... hus it is simmply the wrong attitude completely to be concerned about one's 'credibility' , we are not the auhority here, the scripture is... and neither do i think there is any audience , but if there were ,it would be of no consequence whatever, it should not shape anything ...

All points you raise willget answered as quickly as time allows, and if any get missed in this melee of scripts then it is a simple matter to pick them up again once it is realised...

But you really have to come to see that i am not trying to assert anything, just to find out what you already know by menas of summaries first, and only then attemt to expound the structure of scripture upon whichthe summaries are based ... it is actually a faster more co-operative method than your adversarial approach... it is an enemy of truth to set people against each other so that they take aggressive or defensive stances... if the word is the only authority then there is nothing either of us has to prove, it is simply trying to move closer to what the scripture says as a whole integrated truth , since it must be that if it is from God... putting that integrated stucture down in linear format for this medium though , it takes time and many interactions , it cannot be done all at once , the scripture is not a recipe book , but rather a ciphered poetic text of great literary complexity , designed specifically to shut out most people from knowing what it nevertheless must say exactly and unambiguously

Isaiah 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Luke 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

Understand then that God does not want sinners to understand yet for the very reason that he wants Satan to admit that he desires to be the god of men, but also because the kingdom is not yet prepared to handle sinners .... the priest must be first and they need time to perfect their love in this life ... sinners must wait then, and so God has blinded even much of Israel for a long time and continues to do so

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

We are plodding away at a task God will not let us complete , simply because seeking to be able to love is the only non-vain thing to do as a sinner ... when god baptises us all this work is done for us, so we find we have wasted our efforts [LOL?] .. we care simply passing the time in the least tedious way possible for sinners , we might as well do it by the best method we can, not by the method much of the world uses in its unjust courtrooms... so lets stop talking about it and get on with it
 
Upvote 0

stranger

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2003
5,927
143
crying in the wilderness of life
✟7,026.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Greens
You've yet to show if and where they get zapped up first,

Well no-one can be translated to spirit ['zapped' ?] until they perfect their love as saints in baptism of fire [trial of faith] so that rather proves that those first baptised are done so because God requires thenm first , and those that have died saints still need to be resurrected first since translation to spirit is from a live body perfected in love [a sacrifice without blemish, and alive] ...add to this that the whole purpose is to craete the perfect priesthood God prophesied first so that they can serve the masses afterward, then i think that you can see this is rather obvious, those first baptised , those sealed [in Rev 7:3-4] are before those many who are not sealed yet [in this earth] in Rev 7:9-10 ... the vfiirstcvfruits are unsurprisingly the first redeemed because they were sealed as part of the process of that redemption...

Where they get 'zapped' from Jesus explains , here and there, all over the place it seems :-

Matthew 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
 
Upvote 0

CShephard53

Somebody shut me up so I can live out loud!
Mar 15, 2007
4,551
151
✟28,231.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Again I claim nothing, i mmerely summarised the scripture first to see if you had raed it and we had no need to plough through it all ... simply because there is too much to plough through every point, and it only makes sense then to discuss the scripture relating most closely to points that are not unanimously agreed...

The task is vast, ebyod a lifetime's work, so use the most efficient method , else you get less work done in a given time... less done by a large ammount in a lifetime ... be more patient, then we can discuss more scripture and less about what we are doing ... it was a reasonable presumption by me that you had heard of the translation of those resurrected at Jesus' return, but it is no probelm to point it out if you have never read and understood this :-

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Every single sentence practically from you is a claim, and remains unbacked in most places. I've pointed out where you have backed them. That happened once, I believe.

If you can't recognize even what a claim is, and keep playing the 'it's Scripture' card, I'll be forced to simply ignore you. You haven't addressed all (hardly any) of my points, nor have you given Scripture to back your claims that:

The Israelites go to heaven first.
Saints are special people separate from other believers, and are very few in number.
All people, or most people, regardless of whether or not they put faith in God while on this earth go to heaven, or eternal life and do not get eternally punished.
You have to be sinless to receive salvation and/or be a saint.
You have to love perfectly in order to be a saint.


Also, you neglected the Greek for firstfruits.

If or when you back all of these claims with Scriptures, I'll start paying attention to your posts again. I don't have time to read your drawn out explanations of how this Scripture really says this or that, when it's clear it does not.

You've made the claims. You back them. Otherwise, as I've done on the other thread with another person who has continued to make unbacked claims, they will be ignored.
 
Upvote 0

Ormly

Senior Veteran
Dec 11, 2004
6,230
94
✟7,151.00
Faith
Christian
You would apparently have us be perfect. I've got news for you. We can't be this side of heaven. He who talks about love does a great job of calling people ignorant.


KJV Mt 5:48
48 be ye therefore perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
MontgomeryNT Mt 5:48
48 "You then must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
Darby Mt 5:48
48 Be *ye* therefore perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.
HCSB Mt 5:48
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
NASB77 Mt 5:48
48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
NASB95 Mt 5:48
48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

What say you? Can you reconcile this?
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.