A solid example from Scripture please.

Pavel Mosko · Oct 25, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
Thank you. Ok. If we are all agreed, let's talk about why now.
Is it bc the dead were still dead or is there something else at play?

Here is one big one

Protestants as a rule treat the Bible like it is one kind of unit or manual etc. Like the Church would have had access to a full canon of scripture etc. to weigh things etc. Rather than what actually happened, where it took 4 centuries to actually get a NT canon that people would agree on etc.

But it is that kind of reading backwards into history and judging the Church by it that is the problem because the Church organically did not operate that way. They believed in dogmas, and quoted scripture but did not have the kind of almost legal philosophy by which Protestants operate from.

I'm talking about what is called The "As If" in philosophy. The mode of Operations taken by many Protestants acts as if in the Great Commission itself Christ promised to bring about one Universal Scriptural Canon that will lead us into all Truth, rather what he actually says, about the Church.

Thatgirloncfforums · Oct 25, 2021

No,it doesn't bc I am the one asking and I don't care about Sola Scriptura. I will bring in Tradition but I want to do this in a systematic way.

narnia59 said:
You said in your previous post whether there is a radical shift in the New Testament. The answer to that question is yes. The resurrection of Christ changes EVERYTHING. Now those who have died in the flesh are "in Christ" just as we are.

I did not mean to derail your thread with a discussion about sola-Scriptura. But you need to undertstand that it impacts everything.

Abaxvahl · Oct 25, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
Thank you. Ok. If we are all agreed, let's talk about why now.
Is it bc the dead were still dead or is there something else at play?

In my opinion it is simply because that aspect of reality was not fully revealed until in the final age (which is the Church age). Like how in very old parts of the OT they do not speak of the Resurrection of the Dead, and speak as if the dead are unconscious or barely conscious shades of themselves, but as knowledge advances (the Lord revealing Himself) the current activity of the Saints and things in heaven are spoken of in more detail along with the General Resurrection, that all will be incorruptible. This process also happened with the Trinity.

So really I think it is mainly a knowledge issue, in the "divine pedagogy."

Pavel Mosko · Oct 25, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
Scripture is pretty uncomplicated actually. The problem many struggle with is that they don't take it at face value.

Yeah and that is where the problem is. It also was a problem for Luther as well he could not imagine other Protestants would interpret the Bible differently than he did in the beginning, but that was simply Naïve Realism at play.

Thatgirloncfforums · Oct 25, 2021

Right. I know many treat Scripture like a textbook. I blew up at a SDA recently bc they were driving me crazy doing that very thing.

Anyway, since we have established that in neither the OT or the Tradition surrounding it nor the NT prior to the Ascension of Christ, is there an example of invocation, let's look at the earliest Liturgy. Is invocation expressed there?

Pavel Mosko said:
Here is one big one

Protestants as a rule treat the Bible like it is one kind of unit or manual etc. Like the Church would have had access to a full canon of scripture etc. to weigh things etc. Rather than what actually happened, where it took 4 centuries to actually get a NT canon that people would agree on etc.

But it is that kind of reading backwards into history and judging the Church by it that is the problem because the Church organically did not operate that way. They believed in dogmas, and quoted scripture but did not have the kind of almost legal philosophy by which Protestants operate from.

I'm talking about what is called The "As If" in philosophy. The mode of Operations taken by many Protestants acts as if in the Great Commission itself Christ promised to bring about one Universal Scriptural Canon that will lead us into all Truth, rather what he actually says, about the Church.

Pavel Mosko · Oct 25, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
Anyway, since we have established that in neither the OT or the Tradition surrounding it nor the NT prior to the Ascension of Christ, is there an example of invocation, let's look at the earliest Liturgy. Is invocation expressed there?

If you want to understand this and all other things related to Christianity coming from Judaism I would recommend simply getting into 2nd Temple Judaism period. It it fascinating. It is Relevant to anything you want to study in Christianity period. Not just this topic although it's important here, but the antecedents of the Trinity, lots of NT footnotes and background info etc.

Thatgirloncfforums · Oct 25, 2021

Look at how they interpret it though. It's almost always bc they have extra biblical tradition (eg SDAs have an extra-Biblical prophet as do Mormons) or they are not taking Scripture at face value (eg. Evangelical take Christ's word about his body and blood as symbolic or spiritual. As much as I love Gavin O on YouTube, listening to him trying to turn salvic baptism into a believer's baptism is torture) .

Pavel Mosko said:
Yeah and that is where the problem is. It also was a problem for Luther as well he could not imagine other Protestants would interpret the Bible differently than he did in the beginning, but that was simply Naïve Realism at play.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naïve_realism_(psychology)#:~:text=In social psychology, naïve realism,uninformed, irrational, or biased.&text=The term, as it is,his colleagues in the 1990s.

Thatgirloncfforums · Oct 25, 2021

Thank you

Pavel Mosko said:
If you want to understand this and all other things related to Christianity coming from Judaism I would recommend simply getting into 2nd Temple Judaism period. It it fascinating. It is Relevant to anything you want to study in Christianity period. Not just this topic although it's important here, but the antecedents of the Trinity, lots of NT footnotes and background etc.

Thatgirloncfforums · Oct 25, 2021

That makes sense.

Abaxvahl said:
In my opinion it is simply because that aspect of reality was not fully revealed until in the final age (which is the Church age). Like how in very old parts of the OT they do not speak of the Resurrection of the Dead, and speak as if the dead are unconscious or barely conscious shades of themselves, but as knowledge advances (the Lord revealing Himself) the current activity of the Saints and things in heaven are spoken of in more detail along with the General Resurrection, that all will be incorruptible. This process also happened with the Trinity.

So really I think it is mainly a knowledge issue, in the "divine pedagogy."

narnia59 · Oct 25, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
No,it doesn't bc I am the one asking and I don't care about Sola Scriptura. I will bring in Tradition but I want to do this in a systematic way.

Fair enough.

One of the earliest recorded evidence of the practice I know of -- Steve Ray refers to the "graffiti" found in the catacombs from early believers:

Believers have been asking for the prayers of the Saints since the beginning. All one has to do is look at the graffiti left in the catacombs to see where they said from the first centuries “Peter and Paul pray for us”. In the catacombs of St. Sebastian there’s one segment of wall covering the former tombs of Sts. Peter and Paul. There are 614 requests for intersession scratched into the wall from the very first Christians. They were (praying=asking) for the intercession of these two great martyrs and saints.

GreekOrthodox · Oct 25, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
Scripture is pretty uncomplicated actually. The problem many struggle with is that they don't take it at face value.

Oh? Want to explain the face value of John 1:1 and the meaning of Logos without diving into Greek philosophy?

Pavel Mosko · Oct 25, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
Thank you

I actually watch a lot of the Protestant Bible scholar, Michael Heiser who is into this but actually much more all the older stuff in the Bible, like how the Bible uses older, pagan iconography, terms but for its own ends to describe Yahew etc. That is another fun topic, especially hearing how various things are said to be pagan and you realize how the ancient Hebrews basically incorporated various aspects of pagan culture into their sacred culture. Well this sort of things comes up a lot when people talk about how Christmas and Easter are pagan, and all that jazz.

Thatgirloncfforums · Oct 25, 2021

Yes. This is one fact of evidence that I use to answer Protestants who wish to date invocation only as far back as Origen. It is also the most compelling since the earliest invocations are funeral inscriptions. I am wont to connect invocation with tombstones, for some reason. I remember someone telling me that the graffiti was added by pilgrims.

narnia59 said:
Fair enough.

One of the earliest recorded evidence of the practice I know of -- Steve Ray refers to the "graffiti" found in the catacombs from early believers:

Believers have been asking for the prayers of the Saints since the beginning. All one has to do is look at the graffiti left in the catacombs to see where they said from the first centuries “Peter and Paul pray for us”. In the catacombs of St. Sebastian there’s one segment of wall covering the former tombs of Sts. Peter and Paul. There are 614 requests for intersession scratched into the wall from the very first Christians. They were (praying=asking) for the intercession of these two great martyrs and saints.

Thatgirloncfforums · Oct 25, 2021

Perhaps it's bc this is the context in which even Protestants invoke their dead. The very fact that we have tombstones is a form of invocation. Like David said to the already deceased Jonathan, 'Very dear you were to me my brother. Your love for me was wonderful, more wonderful than that of women'

Thatgirloncfforums said:
Yes. This is one fact of evidence that I use to answer Protestants who wish to date invocation only as far back as Origen. It is also the most compelling since the earliest invocations are funeral inscriptions. I am wont to connect invocation with tombstones, for some reason. I remember someone telling me that the graffiti was added by pilgrims.

Thatgirloncfforums · Oct 25, 2021

My Pastor loves Heiser!

This reminds me of a video Matt Whitman on YT did, entitled something like, 'Yes Christmas is pagan and I totally don't care!'

It was my Pastor's fondness of Heiser that made me consider my op question. I couldn't understand why, if the pagans invoked their dead, the Israelites were forbidden to invoke theirs.

Pavel Mosko said:
I actually watch a lot of the Protestant Bible scholar, Michael Heiser who is into this but actually much more all the older stuff in the Bible, like how the Bible uses older, pagan iconography, terms but for its own ends to describe Yahew etc. That is another fun topic, especially hearing how various things are said to be pagan and you realize how the ancient Hebrews basically incorporated various aspects of pagan culture into their sacred culture. Well this sort of things comes up a lot when people talk about how Christmas and Easter are pagan, and all that jazz.

Abaxvahl · Oct 25, 2021

GreekOrthodox said:
Oh? Want to explain the face value of John 1:1 and the meaning of Logos without diving into Greek philosophy?

Perhaps I am in grand error but I think St. John simply referenced the Scriptures for this. "[God] [said]," or the Psalm "[He] [spoke] and they were made, [He] [commanded] and they were created," or the Prophets "the [Word] of the [Lord] came to me," and not Greek philosophy. St. Paul in calling Christ Wisdom simply referenced Wisdom, "through me there is justice, through me men reign, through me the world was founded" and so on. These verses distinguish between the Father and the Son, which is why Eusebius uses it as a prooftext saying of that Psalm "he [the Psalmist] here introduces the Father and Maker as Ruler of all, commanding with a kingly nod, and second to him the divine Word, none other than the one who is proclaimed by us, as carrying out the Father’s commands."

They were poor Israelites after all, who I'd expect to draw on their own knowledge primarily.

Thatgirloncfforums · Oct 25, 2021

GreekOrthodox said:
Oh? Want to explain the face value of John 1:1 and the meaning of Logos without diving into Greek philosophy?

John was written to the Greeks. His audience understood what he meant. The more we learn about the context in which Scripture is written, the more we understand it's plain meaning.

It's like if I were to pick up Shakespeare. I have to learn a lot, but his middle-class audience didn't.

Pavel Mosko · Oct 25, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
Yes. This is one fact of evidence that I use to answer Protestants who wish to date invocation only as far back as Origen. It is also the most compelling since the earliest invocations are funeral inscriptions. I am wont to connect invocation with tombstones, for some reason. I remember someone telling me that the graffiti was added by pilgrims.

Its seems to me that the Apostolic Fathers might be looked at on this sort of thing. I guess Shepherd of Hermas is the only thing that fits.

https://www.churchfathers.org/intercession-of-the-saints

Thatgirloncfforums · Oct 25, 2021

Pavel Mosko said:
Its seems to me that the Apostolic Fathers might be looked at on this sort of thing. I guess Shepherd of Hermas is the only thing that fits.

https://www.churchfathers.org/intercession-of-the-saints

The SofH is interesting, but I don't expect to see much in the apostolic fathers for the same reason that I don't expect to see much in the epistles of Scripture. They're not liturgical or historical-narrative.

Pavel Mosko · Oct 25, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
let's look at the earliest Liturgy. Is invocation expressed there?

I know you can find this sort of thing in the oldest Christian liturgies. I have a friend (my best friend form puberty into adulthood) who kept his skepticism on this from Protestantism when he became a priest and later a bishop in a small Church of the East jurisdiction/ denomination. I am trying to remember the Words to the Liturgy of Addai and Mari which blatantly say what he denies. A close paraphrase We solicit the prayers of the saints, including "our Lady the most holy virgin Mary, mother of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, may the Holy Spirit form in us" as it formed in you... (it tries to draw some kind of poetic parallel of receiving Faith, if I can find the exact words I re-edit this).

A solid example from Scripture please.

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