Futurist Only A Sobering Thought...

[Sabertooth]

When we look at the plagues, pestilences, disastrous weather and earthquakes unleashed on people in the book of Revelation, it is really easy to think "THOSE poor people..."

Some judgments are for a specific group (like those who received the Mark of the Beast), but large swaths are not.

Even if we Christians are exempt from such judgments ourselves,* they will still likely effect our unsaved loved ones. It may very well be a case of "WE poor people!"

*Jesus' parable, The Wheat & The Tares [Matt. 13] teaches that some of us will experience collateral damage, too [vv. 29-30].

 

[HTacianas]

When we look at the plagues, pestilences, disastrous weather and earthquakes unleashed on people in the book of Revelation, it is really easy to think "THOSE poor people..."

Some judgments are for a specific group (like those who received the Mark of the Beast), but large swaths are not.

Even if we Christians are exempt from such judgments ourselves,* they will still likely effect our unsaved loved ones. It may very well be a case of "WE poor people!"

*Jesus' parable, The Wheat & The Tares [Matt. 13] teaches that some of us will experience collateral damage, too [vv. 29-30].

I like that you frame it as "collateral damage". Suppose there was some plague that struck the unrighteous. Would some righteous ones dying from the plague rule out that it was in fact from God? The two witnesses of Rev 11 are eventually killed by the beast. Also in the Revelation the righteous are beheaded. So it's my guess that there would be "collateral damage". But what would the unrighteous say of it? "It can't be from God because the innocent die too". That has happened before.

 

[Sabertooth]

We still get to go to Heaven afterwards.

 

[Jamdoc]

When we look at the plagues, pestilences, disastrous weather and earthquakes unleashed on people in the book of Revelation, it is really easy to think "THOSE poor people..."

Some judgments are for a specific group (like those who received the Mark of the Beast), but large swaths are not.

Even if we Christians are exempt from such judgments ourselves,* they will still likely effect our unsaved loved ones. It may very well be a case of "WE poor people!"

*Jesus' parable, The Wheat & The Tares [Matt. 13] teaches that some of us will experience collateral damage, too [vv. 29-30].

It should actually be a wakeup call to those, particularly in the west, who believe in pretribulationism, with this idea that God will never allow anything bad to happen to them. Christians have been targeted for persecution in many parts of the world since there was such a thing as Christians, yes, God does let the wicked make war on the saints, and yes, natural disasters happen and Christians get killed in them. In 2018 a Tsunami hit Indonesia and killed Christians during morning worship services.
We just have to trust that God means that for our good.

I believe the first 4 seals take place before the 70th week, and are the events that establish the beast and his empire.
Those events are horrific, killing 1/4 of the population on earth and I speculate it involves nuclear or biological warfare, then the 5th seal being the great tribulation itself, targeting Christians.

So we, even if we personally die before it happens, SHOULD feel as it is "we poor people" because they ultimately, are also members of the body of Christ, even if it happens to another generation, or is current persecution targeting Iranian or North Korean or Nigerian Christians.

1 Corinthians 12

26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

This should temper how we parcel the tribulation that Christians around the world go through as we ourselves are in comfort.
We should be praying for them to be given the grace to endure, and we should learn from their faith and endurance for when we ourselves will no longer find ourselves to be a privileged group.

 

[friend of]

@Jamdoc I can respect what you're saying, but this is a thread for Futurists only

 

[Jamdoc]

@Jamdoc I can respect what you're saying, but this is a thread for Futurists only

I am a futurist. I'm saying that currently Christians do endure persecution, and suffer injury and death through natural disasters. We're not going to be whisked away prior to anything bad happening.

When it comes to Revelation, which yes, is future events, Christians are made war on by the Antichrist, to a level never before experienced.

 

[Skye1300]

When we look at the plagues, pestilences, disastrous weather and earthquakes unleashed on people in the book of Revelation, it is really easy to think "THOSE poor people..."

Some judgments are for a specific group (like those who received the Mark of the Beast), but large swaths are not.

Even if we Christians are exempt from such judgments ourselves,* they will still likely effect our unsaved loved ones. It may very well be a case of "WE poor people!"

*Jesus' parable, The Wheat & The Tares [Matt. 13] teaches that some of us will experience collateral damage, too [vv. 29-30].

That's true, everyone alive will be affected in some way. It's like with COVID, for those who never caught it, they were still affected by lockdowns and toilet paper shortages, and wearing masks and getting tested etc. There's no way that those things will happen in the last days and not affect everyone in some way even if it's indirectly. Look at how this war that has nothing to do with us is affecting gas prices because of sanctions. Everyone alive at the time will be affected in some way.

 

[Skye1300]

It should actually be a wakeup call to those, particularly in the west, who believe in pretribulationism, with this idea that God will never allow anything bad to happen to them. Christians have been targeted for persecution in many parts of the world since there was such a thing as Christians, yes, God does let the wicked make war on the saints, and yes, natural disasters happen and Christians get killed in them. In 2018 a Tsunami hit Indonesia and killed Christians during morning worship services.
We just have to trust that God means that for our good.

I believe the first 4 seals take place before the 70th week, and are the events that establish the beast and his empire.
Those events are horrific, killing 1/4 of the population on earth and I speculate it involves nuclear or biological warfare, then the 5th seal being the great tribulation itself, targeting Christians.

So we, even if we personally die before it happens, SHOULD feel as it is "we poor people" because they ultimately, are also members of the body of Christ, even if it happens to another generation, or is current persecution targeting Iranian or North Korean or Nigerian Christians.

1 Corinthians 12


This should temper how we parcel the tribulation that Christians around the world go through as we ourselves are in comfort.
We should be praying for them to be given the grace to endure, and we should learn from their faith and endurance for when we ourselves will no longer find ourselves to be a privileged group.

Yes, just look at how many Catholic saints were martyred and tortured for serving God, as well as how all except one of the disciples died. They didn't care if they were young, old, male or female.

 

[Jamdoc]

Yes, just look at how many Catholic saints were martyred and tortured for serving God, as well as how all except one of the disciples died. They didn't care if they were young, old, male or female.

I think one of the reasons why I dislike pretribulationism doctrine is that for those in Christ that do suffer during great tribulation, pretribulationists say "oh that's tribulation saints, that's not us" like great, you're seeing them as someone else, as long as it's not you suffering huh? They're fully comfortable with the idea that they get raptured out before anything bad happens and if you get "left behind" it's no skin off their back that those "other" people would get martyred for their faith. They feel absolutely no kinship with them, they've created second class citizens of heaven in their minds.
We need to be unified as the body of Christ and their suffering needs to be our suffering, even if it's people thousands of miles away from us, even if it's generations ago, or generations in our future, across denominations.. differing in minor doctrines, if they're in Christ.. we need solidarity with them.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

It should actually be a wakeup call to those, particularly in the west, who believe in pretribulationism, with this idea that God will never allow anything bad to happen to them. Christians have been targeted for persecution in many parts of the world since there was such a thing as Christians, yes, God does let the wicked make war on the saints, and yes, natural disasters happen and Christians get killed in them. In 2018 a Tsunami hit Indonesia and killed Christians during morning worship services.
We just have to trust that God means that for our good.

I believe the first 4 seals take place before the 70th week, and are the events that establish the beast and his empire.
Those events are horrific, killing 1/4 of the population on earth and I speculate it involves nuclear or biological warfare, then the 5th seal being the great tribulation itself, targeting Christians.

So we, even if we personally die before it happens, SHOULD feel as it is "we poor people" because they ultimately, are also members of the body of Christ, even if it happens to another generation, or is current persecution targeting Iranian or North Korean or Nigerian Christians.

1 Corinthians 12


This should temper how we parcel the tribulation that Christians around the world go through as we ourselves are in comfort.
We should be praying for them to be given the grace to endure, and we should learn from their faith and endurance for when we ourselves will no longer find ourselves to be a privileged group.

Hi, you misrepresent many pretribulationist as thinking nothing bad will happen. you note that the seal judgments happen before the 70th week. So when it the starting point for the 70th week? It seems to me the rider on the white horse is the beast and he is coming to conquer at the opening of the 1st seal. By rev 13 he has been given dominion but he dragon and has dominion over every tribe tongue kindred and nation for exactly 42 months which would make Rev 13 the middle of the week. Now this guy also blasphemes and causes all to worship the dragon and himself so he will not be coming as saying he is Jesus he will be coming saying that Lucifer was the good guy and Jesus or Elohim is the bad guy. This leave room for the rapture to occur before the seals are opened and we will find out who is right when things are revealed but for sure either way it is coming down soon and we need to be on guard and sharing the faith as top priority. It is interesting to note that of the churches that stayed opened and opposed the covid lock downs and took on great persecution for making a stand that by and large they were pretribulation believing churches. Now in hind site those churches have been vindicated in 5 separate lawsuits by the Supreme Court. My point is many think the pretrib crowd will cave if and when things get tough and if you look at who had the integrity to stand against the government it was futurist who hold to occupy until I come concept.

 

[RandyPNW]

When we look at the plagues, pestilences, disastrous weather and earthquakes unleashed on people in the book of Revelation, it is really easy to think "THOSE poor people..."

Some judgments are for a specific group (like those who received the Mark of the Beast), but large swaths are not.

Even if we Christians are exempt from such judgments ourselves,* they will still likely effect our unsaved loved ones. It may very well be a case of "WE poor people!"

*Jesus' parable, The Wheat & The Tares [Matt. 13] teaches that some of us will experience collateral damage, too [vv. 29-30].

I think this last point is critically important, not just for understanding the Revelation, but also for understanding life. All of us are, in a sense, "collateral damage." We all suffer the effects of the sins of others. We are born into a world with genetic abnormalities, and are born in an environment that is disadvantaged, to some extent.

Like Job, we have to be willing to suffer this with a good Christian spirit, and not get angry at God for letting us, as innocent people, suffer this way. After all, Christ came into the world to suffer not for his own sins but in order to forgive.

 

[Jamdoc]

Hi, you misrepresent many pretribulationist as thinking nothing bad will happen. you note that the seal judgments happen before the 70th week. So when it the starting point for the 70th week? It seems to me the rider on the white horse is the beast and he is coming to conquer at the opening of the 1st seal. By rev 13 he has been given dominion but he dragon and has dominion over every tribe tongue kindred and nation for exactly 42 months which would make Rev 13 the middle of the week. Now this guy also blasphemes and causes all to worship the dragon and himself so he will not be coming as saying he is Jesus he will be coming saying that Lucifer was the good guy and Jesus or Elohim is the bad guy. This leave room for the rapture to occur before the seals are opened and we will find out who is right when things are revealed but for sure either way it is coming down soon and we need to be on guard and sharing the faith as top priority. It is interesting to note that of the churches that stayed opened and opposed the covid lock downs and took on great persecution for making a stand that by and large they were pretribulation believing churches. Now in hind site those churches have been vindicated in 5 separate lawsuits by the Supreme Court. My point is many think the pretrib crowd will cave if and when things get tough and if you look at who had the integrity to stand against the government it was futurist who hold to occupy until I come concept.

Nothing about the rider on the white horse confirming a covenant, it can be the Antichrist, but in order for him to have the authority to confirm a covenant he has to be a leader.
so the 4 horsemen are how he does that in my mind. Establishes his authority, there are dramatic problems caused by the 4 horseman, and the beast comes out of it and proposes the solutions.

I also do not read Revelation from 1-22 in Chronological order. Because chapter 12 is a clear break in Chronology taking you back to the birth of Jesus. Then suddenly Satan has the authority to give to the beast. So this is NOT after the 7th trumpet, in which Jesus establishes His Kingdom forever and ever. To read it in that Chronology would be to have Jesus' first act of King of the Earth being giving Authority BACK to Satan for Satan to give to the beast. Which is absurd to me. I don't know how anyone wraps their mind around that one if they interpret it in totally Chronological order.

So I split the book in half, and have 2 consistent Chronological Narratives showing different details of the same events.
The rise of the beast in chapter 13, is the same as what happens during the first 5 seals basically.

and to put it frankly, we may already be 2 seals in, the entire world got shut down by a deception, it conquered the world, and the post cold war peace has been taken away, and we're about to enter into wide spread famine and hyperinflation in some places, with a group of elites deliberately trying to crash the world's economy for a "Great Reset".
We may already be staring at the 3rd seal on the horizon.

It is possible anyway.
Nuclear war between Russia and NATO?
That'll kill 1/4 of the world's population easy.

Then out of that? A new world order, geopolitics not centered on Europe, Russia, or the US.

I pose it as possibility, and as it fitting with what we actually see happening.

If we don't have the food shortages that we're being warned about, and prices skyrocketing, and no economic collapse, and no nuclear war? Okay, guess I'm wrong, another time then.

key thing for me is that the seals are things that men do, after God stops restraining them from doing their worst.

 

[friend of]

I think one of the reasons why I dislike pretribulationism doctrine is that for those in Christ that do suffer during great tribulation, pretribulationists say "oh that's tribulation saints, that's not us" like great, you're seeing them as someone else, as long as it's not you suffering huh? They're fully comfortable with the idea that they get raptured out before anything bad happens and if you get "left behind" it's no skin off their back that those "other" people would get martyred for their faith. They feel absolutely no kinship with them, they've created second class citizens of heaven in their minds.
We need to be unified as the body of Christ and their suffering needs to be our suffering, even if it's people thousands of miles away from us, even if it's generations ago, or generations in our future, across denominations.. differing in minor doctrines, if they're in Christ.. we need solidarity with them.

Actually I think it's the opposite for me. Those who suffer under the AC and who are likely martyred will surely be exalted higher than my rapture escaping self in the age to come. God would honor their suffering for his name more than my relatively comfortable life for Christ.

 

[Jamdoc]

Actually I think it's the opposite for me. Those who suffer under the AC and who are likely martyred will surely be exalted higher than my rapture escaping self in the age to come. God would honor their suffering for his name more than my relatively comfortable life for Christ.

That'd be a better way to take it I suppose but it's not what I hear from a lot of pretrib. They just deflect "that's tribulation saints, *they* are the ones suffering and being martyred, not *us*, don't get left behind!"
I've seen one pastor who is technically still on Youtube but he usually cuts off his sermons 10m in and has you go to his own website so he doesn't get strikes refer to "tribulation saints" as not even being the bride of Christ.
and I'm just gobsmacked. he believes these people are willing to die for Christ where he apparently is too scared, and has to escape early... and then he treats them as second class?
Even if you believe in "tribulation saints" while "the Church age" saints pretribulation poof before anything bad happens... shouldn't you see those "tribulation saints" as part of the same body of Christ? Shouldn't their suffering also be something you feel for? Aren't they also saved by the same thing you are and also part of the bride?

But I guess that's what happens with radical dispensationalism where you think "this is the dispensation of grace, after the rapture it's back to works" or something like that.
I'm not dispensational in that manner. I see separation between the promises made to Israel/Abraham's offspring from his own bowels as the KJV puts it, and the promises made to all in Christ, but as far as salvation goes? It always has been and always will be grace.

 

[friend of]

Even if you believe in "tribulation saints" while "the Church age" saints pretribulation poof before anything bad happens... shouldn't you see those "tribulation saints" as part of the same body of Christ? Shouldn't their suffering also be something you feel for? Aren't they also saved by the same thing you are and also part of the bride?

That's a good point. Yes Christ returns for His bride at the rapture, but the rest of His bride is left down here. I see the problem, but I still fall in that camp regardless.

 

[Jamdoc]

That's a good point. Yes Christ returns for His bride at the rapture, but the rest of His bride is left down here. I see the problem, but I still fall in that camp regardless.

Isn't really an argument for you to "change camps" so to say but more just to align affections with all in Christ. as the OP put it "us poor people" rather than seeing them as "someone else"

 

[Skye1300]

I think one of the reasons why I dislike pretribulationism doctrine is that for those in Christ that do suffer during great tribulation, pretribulationists say "oh that's tribulation saints, that's not us" like great, you're seeing them as someone else, as long as it's not you suffering huh? They're fully comfortable with the idea that they get raptured out before anything bad happens and if you get "left behind" it's no skin off their back that those "other" people would get martyred for their faith. They feel absolutely no kinship with them, they've created second class citizens of heaven in their minds.
We need to be unified as the body of Christ and their suffering needs to be our suffering, even if it's people thousands of miles away from us, even if it's generations ago, or generations in our future, across denominations.. differing in minor doctrines, if they're in Christ.. we need solidarity with them.

Amen!

 

[Sabertooth]

as the OP put it "us poor people" rather than seeing them as "someone else"

What I meant is that we in first world countries keep presuming that those calamities will only befall second & third world countries [them], not ours [us].

There is no guarantee of that.

"Because you say,

‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’​

—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked—
I counsel you to buy from Me

• gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and
• white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and
• anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see." Revelation 3:17-18 NKJV

 

[Jamdoc]

What I meant is that we in first world countries keep presuming that those calamities will only befall second & third world countries [them], not ours [us].

There is no guarantee of that.

"Because you say,

‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’​

—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked—
I counsel you to buy from Me

• gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and
• white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and
• anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see." Revelation 3:17-18 NKJV

I agree, but in a 2 pronged way.
#1. and most importantly, we should always be feeling as if we're one body, not "those other people"
and #2. Persecution and calamities are going to hit closer to home for everyone in Christ. You're right, spiritually we should always treat it as if it's affecting us, but it will likely physically and directly affect us as well.