A Small Testimony...

[BAChristian]

...we went to a Nazarene Church ... it took a long while for the Lord to work in my heart to see past the lack of the movement of the spirit manifested

Been there...done that.

John . .knowing God is not about being part of these dynamic moves of the spirit . . we can seek the Hand of God till we are blue in the face, we can experience the Hand of God till we go numb with delight . . but that does not bring us any closer to knowng the FACE of God!

Exactly! I've found, in the Protestant churches I grew up in, that there was hollerin' and jumpin' up and down, but that was like a sugar coat. It wasn't real to me. You hear people talk about how the Spirit was there. But when you kneel in front of Christ -- in front of the Holy Eucharist, you know he's there. You can feel it.

Gone is any desire for the emotional, dynamic high of the services I had once been a part of . . now is a hunger for something deeper, more real that you are talking about . . (I have been there, I know!)

Exactly.

Now, I when I go to Mass, I expierience God in a deeper way. I have experienced all the manifestations of God's presence and power without the dynamics of loud praise and worship simply in the act of the consecration of the Eucharist

Same here...

I have been kneeling during the consecration and have experienced a wave after wave of God's presence stream through the church and through me

Same here...

When I have gone up for a blessing, the closer I get to the preist, the heavier the presence of the Holy Spirit becomes...

Oh man...me too!

...like waves of a river . . I just stayed there kneeling soaking it in . .

The Lord's graces within His Church are there for us to soak up like a sponge. It is we, as Christians, that limit his graces. Not Him.

But everything that I experienced in all my years in the Forusquare and other churches, and especially in the last one I was a part of, I have experienced in the Catholic Church, and much more deeply and profoundly . .

Amen sister.

You do not need an emotional high to experience the power of God . .

I couldn't have said it better. This is SO true.

 

[John the Engineer]

I find it funny that people will sit and read as calmly as can be the words "Shout to the Lord" like they were quietly telling the person next to them.

Where are you? I'm in the Los Angeles area and would enjoy attending another church. In return I would invite you to come visit ours if you wish (though I don't make it a condition of)

Gone is any desire for the emotional, dynamic high of the services I had once been a part of . . now is a hunger for something deeper, more real that you are talking about . . (I have been there, I know!)

My response to this is ... pardon me for saying ... I'm so sorry. Through the bible we see people rejoice, shout, and cry out to the Lord. Remember the Lord said that if we are silent the very rocks would cry out! When you are standing in a crowd waiting for a star to get out of the limo people shout and scream, and doesn't the Lord seek that same energy, excitement, and love?

To take your own phrase, what is more real than the Lord moving in power where his people are praising his name with excitement and fervor?

He wants us to seek His face . . not His hand . . when we are willing to let go of the experience of His hand . .then God can really start to do something with us . . ..

That's a very interesting phrase. I'm not sure how to respond to it.

Before I say something that gets too out of hand I'll end this here. The entire context of this is that "excitement is fun, but when you grow up you find that it's all child's play and you need to be more solemn about the Lord" When I read the bible and dig into the word I get excited, get happy. I was awake all one night cause I was so excited about the Lord. I signed on to this forum that night cause I just wanted to praise and shout. I get the emotional moves of the spirit, but that's just the nice inside, and I let the world know that I am on fire for him with joy and excitement. If that is child's play (my word, not yours) then I am quite happy with it.

I'll make a more complete comment later tonight. If the moderators think this is out of hand, then I do apologize and will refrain from taking part in these discussions any longer. I know I have already "crossed the line" once before.

 

[Lotar]

The Christian faith is not about emotions, though at times these will be present, you should not base your beliefs off of them. The bible speaks of solemn, meditative times as well.

 

[John the Engineer]

Thank you all for your time and posts. I will continue to learn about the Catholic Faith. God Bless all of you.

Fair winds and following seas.

 

[de Unamuno]

John, you mean after all this persuasion, you're not converting today? Fine!

God bless you, brother. You are fine Christian in any man's reckoning.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I find it funny that people will sit and read as calmly as can be the words "Shout to the Lord" like they were quietly telling the person next to them.

There is definately a time and place for shouting to the Lord We just don't do it usually in Mass . . .

Where are you? I'm in the Los Angeles area and would enjoy attending another church. In return I would invite you to come visit ours if you wish (though I don't make it a condition of)

I am up in Oregon . .so a ways away I am afraid, or I would love to meet with you and visit your Church . it would bring back many memories I am sure!

Gone is any desire for the emotional, dynamic high of the services I had once been a part of . . now is a hunger for something deeper, more real that you are talking about . . (I have been there, I know!)

My response to this is ... pardon me for saying ... I'm so sorry. Through the bible we see people rejoice, shout, and cry out to the Lord. Remember the Lord said that if we are silent the very rocks would cry out! When you are standing in a crowd waiting for a star to get out of the limo people shout and scream, and doesn't the Lord seek that same energy, excitement, and love?

To take your own phrase, what is more real than the Lord moving in power where his people are praising his name with excitement and fervor?

Well, when I was in your position, I would have said the same thing . . but there are depths to God you have not yet plumbed . .. but if you seek Him with your whole heart, you will my dear friend. There is a reality that transends all excitement and fervor . .. as unbelievable as that may seem to you now . .. So real, so deep, so profound are these experiences in God that I would not go back to the excitement and fervor for all the world . .

You seem to equate a lack of outward expression of excitement and fervor with somberness . . but your eyes can deceive you and what you see on the outward surface of people can greatly belie what is happening in the depths of their soul . . God has to show you this . . I will pray that He does . . this is not something that one willingly wants to go into, but once God gives a taste of the delights to come, they are willing to embrace what they must, and leave behind emotionalism for something far deeper and more real . .

I was given a series of mental visions while in prayer . .they were about me and where I was and where God was taking me . . .

I was on a path . . and I was seeking a deeper relationship with God . . I had come through some hard experiences in the spirit by then, and I wanted what was real, not what was superficial . . as I walked this path, I saw in the distance a great wall . . I was coming out of a wooded area so could not see all of it. As I left the wooded area, I could see this great wall in the distance and that this wall was very high and stretched a great distance to either side. The path went straight to that great wall and I realized I had to get to it . . so I quickened my pace.

Later, at another time, I was closer to the wall .. I could now see that there was a door in it . .the wall was so big it dwarfed the door so that the door looked very small . .I could see now that the wall had a slight curve and wrapped around, but was so long that it went a great distance to either side . . as I got closer, I noticed a group of Christians to one side loudly praising and glorifying God with much Joy and Gladness . .they were worshipping the Lord with all their heart it seemed . . I thought, THIS is what I am looking for! . . so I stopped and watched . . and as time went by, they eventually stopped and said to each other, "wow, wasn't that Good!" "yeah, isn't God wonderful!" etc . . they then dispersed and went their own ways, and as I watched, I realized they were going back to their individual lives pretty much unchanged by their experience in the Spirit worshipping God . . and I realized, this is NOT what I am looking for . . so I turned to contiue down the path and realized to my horror I had left the path and had come quite a ways off of it! I hurried to find the path as I realized I had allowed myself to be deceived and that I had to get to the door in the wall - I truly exprected to find God in all His glory on the other side of the wall and worship that was even greater than what I had just witnessed . .full of praise and gladness - that what I had witnessed would be pale in comparision . . so now I was eager to get to the door . . but first I had to find the path and I felt a sense of panic . .

I did find the path, and I hurried to the wall where the path abruptly ended going right into it . . but now, I could not see the door and real panic set it . . what had I done? There were a couple of other people looking for the door as I was . .only a couple . .

Then, another time soon after, this vision resumed . . I had found the door finally after much searching . .it had been hidden from my eyes for a time . . I eagerly opened the door and rushed through it expecting to find God in His glory (for those of you who have been on this journey, you know what I found . . )

But, I did not find God in all His glory . . instead, I found myself standing on the path with the wall behind me and stretching out in both directions slightly curving around the enclosed area . .but so vast was this enclosed area, you could see only a small part of it. Around me were plants and vegetation . . but a very short way down the path, all vegetation stopped . . . and there was nothing but desert . . .

My spirit cried out in horror . .no not this, anything but this . .I expected to find you Lord, in all your glory, fountains of living water all around - I expected to find the END of my journey, not this . . instead I find the barren waste of the desert and a long journey through it about to begin . .

I stopped . .I didn't know what to do .. everything inside of me cringed at the thought of going into that desert, everything wanted to stay where there was greenery and life . .I grieved that I was being asked to leave all that I found dear to go into this desert and I tried to find a way to get to the other side without going through it . there must be a way, God could not want me to go through this . . I thought of going around as the vegetation stayed close to the wall .. but the wall stretched out so far in either direction that I realized it would take forever to walk the perimeter of the wall . .and it could not be done . .


Then, the next time the vision came to me was when I had resolved to submit to the wisdom of my God and obey Him, and start my walk into the desert .. leaving all my understanding behind of what worship was all about . .

That was several years ago . . what was once a horror to me is now my great delight . .the desert is where God strips away all those things that come between us and Him, and where He truly gives us Himself . . what once I was horrified to encounter, I know embrace with all my soul . .in the desert is life, I do not want to leave it. My faith is not dependent on an excited worship full of fervor . . it is dependent fully on my Lord and my God . . And though it has been several years since I entered this desert, I am still at the beginning of my journey . .

God punctuates the desert with oasises of His love . . how glorious these are . . <deep sigh of contentment>

I since had another mental vision . .again, with a group worshipping God . .but this time, these people were truly worshipping Him .. they had also come through the desert and we were at a doorway . .actually a frame . . and on the other side was God . .

I have yet to walk through that door frame . . of this, I will say no more . .

He wants us to seek His face . . not His hand . . when we are willing to let go of the experience of His hand . .then God can really start to do something with us . . ..

That's a very interesting phrase. I'm not sure how to respond to it.

Take time to mediate on this, and to seek God about it . .

Before I say something that gets too out of hand I'll end this here. The entire context of this is that "excitement is fun, but when you grow up you find that it's all child's play and you need to be more solemn about the Lord" When I read the bible and dig into the word I get excited, get happy. I was awake all one night cause I was so excited about the Lord. I signed on to this forum that night cause I just wanted to praise and shout. I get the emotional moves of the spirit, but that's just the nice inside, and I let the world know that I am on fire for him with joy and excitement. If that is child's play (my word, not yours) then I am quite happy with it.

No .. it is not child's play . . but neither should we assume we are mature in the Lord because we have such experiences . . . God will take them away . . believe me . . He will do this to those who are yielded to Him . . and it will be startling and fightening when He does . . perhaps we are having this discussion now so that when your walk comes to that point, it will not be so startling, and you will say . .'so this is what that lady was talking about . . '

Maturity does not come with excitement . .real spiritual maturity comes from leaning on the arm of our Beloved in the darkness, it the desert . . of which I feel I have only begun to do . . . I realize my real lack of spiritual maturity . .

I'll make a more complete comment later tonight. If the moderators think this is out of hand, then I do apologize and will refrain from taking part in these discussions any longer. I know I have already "crossed the line" once before.

I look forward to hearing from you later - please do post . ..


Peace in Him!

 

[de Unamuno]

There is definately a time and place for shouting to the Lord We just don't do it usually in Mass . . .

That's a great point that I think a lot of charismatic Protestants miss when they visit a Mass. Coming from a "rock concert", it's hard to get past the solemnity of the traditional Catholic service. But for Catholics, the Mass is an hour out of the week to be in Communion with the physical presence of the Lord. It's a quiet, contemplative time where Christ speaks directly to you, he enters you (Eucharest) and tells you he loves you. Of course,there are other more charismatic services, including Life Teen, and tons of mens groups, women's groups, etc where you can find the energized worship outside of Mass. The reason I think we (Catholics) enjoy Mass versus a Protestant form of worship, is that a good sermon and worship is like singing your love to God, whereas a good Mass can knock you down with a whisper, "I love you, too".

. . .the desert is where God strips away all those things that come between us and Him, and where He truly gives us Himself . .

Amen. Amen. Amen....


For anyone who wants to understand more about the Catholic Mass (and Catholic theology in general) from a different perspective, I recommend picking up Christopher West's (christopherwest.com) "Theology of the Body". It's a powerful adaptation of John Paul II's work in the same subject, a body of work that has already started to revolutionize Christian thought around the world.

This teaching is really changing the face of Christianity!

Here's an excerpt from the Web site:

John Paul II devoted the first major teaching project of his pontificate – 129 short talks between September of 1979 and November of 1984 – to providing a profoundly beautiful vision of human embodiment and erotic love. He gave this project the working title “theology of the body.”

George Weigel, author of Witness to Hope: The Biography of Pope John Paul II, calls this papal study of human sexuality “one of the boldest reconfigurations of Catholic theology in centuries” – a “theological time-bomb set to go off with dramatic consequences ...perhaps in the twenty-first century.” At this point the Pope’s vision of sexual love “has barely begun to shape the Church’s theology, preaching, and religious education.” But when it does, Weigel predicts, “it will compel a dramatic development of thinking about virtually every major theme in the Creed” (pp. 336, 343, 853).

Far from being a footnote in the Christian life, the way we understand the body and the sexual relationship “concerns the entire Bible” (Jan 13, 82). It plunges us into “the perspective of the whole Gospel, of the whole teaching, in fact, of the whole mission of Christ” (Dec 3, 80). Christ’s mission, according to the spousal analogy of the Scriptures, is to “marry” us. He invites us to live with him in an eternal life-giving union of love.

This is what the union of the sexes is meant to proclaim and foreshadow – the eternal union of Christ and the Church. As St. Paul says, quoting from Genesis, “‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.’ This is a great mystery, and I mean in reference to Christ and the church” (Eph 5:31-32).

By helping us understand this profound interconnection between sex and the Christian mystery, John Paul’s theology of the body not only paves the way for lasting renewal of marriage and the family; it enables everyone to rediscover “the meaning of the whole of existence, the meaning of life” (Oct 29, 80).

In Him,