A Small Testimony...

[ProCommunioneFacior]

I am not exactly sure how to explain this John, so please be patient with me. Before I go to confession I repent directly to Jesus in my prayers. When I go to Confession I truly am confessing to Jesus Christ because he is present there and hears my confession, Jesus Christ himself absolves me through the Priest, because the Priest receives this absolution charism from Jesus passed down through the apostles. So really it is confessing to Jesus Christ, and Jesus is using the Priest as an instrument to absolve and also as an instrument of reconciliation to the Church because when I sin I seperate myself from the Body of Christ which is the Church.

Priests receive charisms that also help them with discernment, counsel, and other gifts to help us.

So in essence, we go directly to Jesus, and Jesus has prescribed for us a way of becoming absolved and that is through his instruments which are the Priests. All power that the Priest has to absolve us comes from Jesus, so really it is Jesus that is absolving us. Does that make sense?

 

[John the Engineer]

Yeah that actually does make a lot of sense. So you do confess your sin and repent to Christ before confession, and so do you believe that at that point you are forgiven? I am not sure if you're using the term "absolves" to mean forgiven or not.

 

[Carrye]

Yes in the general sense. I've always thought of it like this:

You do something to me. I can forgive you, because that is in my power, as your offense is against me. I cannot absolve you though, as your offense is also against God. I don't have that power. You may also have committed offenses against others. I cannot forgive you of those, but God can. God can absolve.

So it is for Catholics. The priest does not absolve sins (in his capacity as a man), but does so in persona Christi, in the person of Christ, by virtue of his ordination and apostolic succession. Again, only God can absolve.

 

[John the Engineer]

So if God forgives sins, why is it then that you have to seek confession to the Priest? Can a Catholic seek God and find forgiveness directly? Is it necessary (not optional) for a Catholic to receive absolution from a Priest, in persona Christi, for sins?

My girlfriend said once that if her Mom found out she was having sex with me (yes, I know) her Mom would make her go to confession. Is it possible for her to gain forgiveness outside of confession? Or was she not gaining any forgiveness for sin by not going to confession?

It made me really sad to know that to her confession was simply a punishment and it lost the true purpose in her heart. I would support her in Catholicism, but because of her Mom's nature she is not even Catholic really.

 

[de Unamuno]

So if God forgives sins, why is it then that you have to seek confession to the Priest? Can a Catholic seek God and find forgiveness directly? Is it necessary (not optional) for a Catholic to receive absolution from a Priest, in persona Christi, for sins?

My girlfriend said once that if her Mom found out she was having sex with me (yes, I know) her Mom would make her go to confession. Is it possible for her to gain forgiveness outside of confession? Or was she not gaining any forgiveness for sin by not going to confession?

It made me really sad to know that to her confession was simply a punishment and it lost the true purpose in her heart. I would support her in Catholicism, but because of her Mom's nature she is not even Catholic really.

This gets back to apostolic succession, wherein the original Apostles, given the power to "bind" and "loose" in the name of Christ, handed those gifts down to the priests. In fact, every priest that you see today has originally been touched by a bishop, who receives his grace in turn from the laying of hands of another bishop... all the way back to the original apostles! At least, that's the claim

So, the priest, as a servant of the Church, is solely tasked to grant forgiveness through the sacrament of Confession. For this reason, Confession is primarily available only through priests. Whether or not it can be accomplished through another means, I don't know. Baptism, for example, can be performed by anyone, if the situation is an emergency... the person administering the baptism doesn't even have to be a Christian! So I wouldn't be surprised if Confession is handled in the same way. I welcome corrections here.

To look at Confession as "punishment" is entirely heartbreaking! Catholics believe that an actual spiritual event takes place during Confession that literally cleanses the soul and fuses the person back into perfect harmony with Christ. Just from a psychological perspective, sitting in front of someone of spiritual authority, eye-to-eye, and releasing your darkest secrets... and to get the verbal affirmation that you are forgiven! It may seem silly, but it's a cleansing, peaceful exchange like no other. When you walk out of there, you know why God chose this method of embracing his children. Keep in mind that most of Catholic theology involves the physical world in conjunction with the spiritual. God created matter, the universe and our bodies... all of which are good and all of which are indivisibly tied to the spiritual. All of the sacraments, therefore, involve physical material and real, spiritual, transformation. Incidentally, good Catholic parents teach their kids very young that the sacraments are a good thing! Sacrament should never be used as a punishment.

One quick comment on the Body of Christ at Mass... we believe that Heaven and Earth come together at Mass. The people sitting in the pews share a common space and time with the Saints in Heaven and, in fact, God himself. Therefore, it is not unreasonable that the Body of Christ should be present at the Mass, since he is basically already there. Think about that for a while and you may see why the Catholic Mass is arguably the greatest event in the world (IMHO)

 

[de Unamuno]

Incidentally, I'm flabbergasted that you can stay so level-headed with so much crazy Catholic theology flying at you. Bravo! And thanks for the kind words!

Really though, we could go all day if you keep encouraging us.

 

[BAChristian]

The one thing that you have to understand about the Sacrament of Reconciliation, John, is that it's not a time to feel dismal and blue about yourself. It's a time to rejoice.

It's unfortunate, but many Catholics, either because they haven't been properly educated, or have been victims of bad RCIA teaching, think that confession is a judgemental, drudgery heartache that has to be adhered to in order to be Catholic.

...quite the opposite really. The Sacrament pulls us to God. We walk up to our spiritual advisor, our priest, and we work with him, in persona Christi, to help us with our faults.

We're encouraged to confront our venial sins, which I believe, is probably one of the most important things to do, because the constant act of venial sin becomes mortal over time, and plunges our soul into darkness.

Last month, I went to my first confession, and it was wonderful. I finally gave up my issues with "authority" and went. And to be honest, that's why I think most Protestants have issues with Catholicism -- authority. And to be honest, I think a lot of people let pride get in the way.

And we know what the Bible says about pride.

I know a conservative Protestant who doesn't think he sins. And he doesn't believe in OSAS either -- you'd think he would -- but he doesn't. He believes that sin is simply put: a direct disobediance towards God. And he doesn't willfully disobey God.

He doesn't realize, however, that when he's getting upset with someone and he's arguing with them over Scripture or something, that in effect, he's committing venial sin...

So trying to explain confession, and telling him that he would have to go to a priest would be laughable to him at best.

And I know a lot...A LOT of Protestants who believe exactly that. (I was one of them.)

This is why I decided to answer God's calling in my life. To give up my inhibitions and listen to Him.

When I finally opened my heart to the Sacraments that Christ established, I felt an overwhelming peace.

Truly, the Sacrament of Penance is beyond imagine. To know you're pure with Him, once again.

 

[Col]

.....I just wanted a thread dedicated to the fact that not all Protestants are against Catholicism.

Well said John, and by the answers I have received here, I would go out on a limb and say that not all Catholics are against Protestants. Surely after 500 years it is time to bury the hatchet.

Bless Ya
Col <><

 

[BAChristian]

Surely after 500 years it is time to bury the hatchet.

Well said.

 

[John the Engineer]

Incidentally, I'm flabbergasted that you can stay so level-headed with so much crazy Catholic theology flying at you. Bravo! And thanks for the kind words!

Really though, we could go all day if you keep encouraging us.

Promise?

 

[John the Engineer]

Surely after 500 years it is time to bury the hatchet.

Amen again!

 

[John the Engineer]

Like my signature mentions, I was trained by the Navy in "leadership", and actually I used to teach applied leadership for the Navy. Fun times long ago. I've been above and below authority, so I have seen it from so many aspects. I don't say this to brag but to preface my comments.

I wouldn't say I have a problem with authority, or pride that stands in my way of being Catholic. If things are redeemed with my girlfriend I would not say that turning to Catholicism would be "right around the corner" because I don't completely agree with the doctrine. This is not to say it's wrong or unholy, just that the teaching I receive at my church, and what I have been raised in is, PRAISE GOD, nurturing and quite amazing in how the Spirit of the Lord moves.

When I first started dating this girl (the one I've spoken of a few times here) I did have a "problem" (loosely put) with Catholicism. I didn't hate Catholics, but I didn't really consider them Christians, mostly because I just didn't know. I knew they worshipped the same God, same Lord Jesus Christ, but still I considered them more as outside Christianity as a whole. After only a cursory review of Catholicism I prayed about it, and attended mass with her once. In it I found it very interesting because they were singing the same worship songs we did.

After praying some the Lord gave me a simple phrase, something I still think of quite often, "Where do you find me?" It was an interesting question, and one I had to answer slowly. I finally found the answer, it was not in a building or in a person (pastor, etc). It was not in a location or a group of people, but it was in my heart and in my soul. For me the Lord is not something that anyone of the world dictates how he is or who he is. He is not in the rules that some would impose or the admonitions of any church. I believe the Lord works directly with me when I pray, and I follow him. Please keep reading cause this is not to say I'm completely independent of anything

I praise the Lord when I read the scripture and those simple words state that the temple veil was torn in two. It's amazing how many people really don't understand the mighty impact of this. It is something that maybe it takes a person of Jewish descendence to understand and love. Some people call them "converted" Jews, but they are truly not, they are COMPLETED Jews (I would ask for an Amen to that if anyone is sitting in a chair quietly!) It means that the Lord is meeting me directly, and if anyone would like to understand the meaning of the temple veil I will be happy to elaborate!

But the Lord for me is found in me. As a Protestant, raised by the pentecostal movement of Aimee Semple McPherson who brought about the Foursquare denomination, I believe God is with me. I find the Lord in the teachings he gives me through any Priest, Rabbi, Pastor, or other such clergy who are submitted to Christ. When I attend Catholic Mass I see it as being among Christian brothers and sisters, growing in the Lord and worshipping him. The teaching is one of the Lord's word, and from that I find him there. I do not partake of the communion because it is offered in a manner I do not entirely believe, and thus I do not wish to take it under false pretense and ruin the true significance of that which Catholicism believes. Just as I do not attend confession. Though I am looking to speak to a Priest for wise counsel, just as I would to a Pastor.

This was my answer from the Lord. I do not rule out the possibility of one day being Catholic if the Lord calls me, but what I find in the Lord where I am currently calling my home Church, I love. And I love him for what he has given me.

One thing that has brought me question though, last I remember of Catholic Church (a LONG time ago) they were singing almost all old hyms (sp?) But now they're singing a lot of the new worship songs, a lot of really "hip" stuff. Is this a recent change? Also, the worship at the mass I have attended is done by a lot of the younger crowd, could this be the reason?

Thanks! Keep it coming

 

[BAChristian]

After praying some the Lord gave me a simple phrase, something I still think of quite often, "Where do you find me?" It was an interesting question, and one I had to answer slowly. I finally found the answer, it was not in a building or in a person (pastor, etc). It was not in a location or a group of people, but it was in my heart and in my soul.

I totally agree.

I do not partake of the communion because it is offered in a manner I do not entirely believe ... Just as I do not attend confession.

I would love to hear your views regarding this...perhaps in a seperate thread...

This was my answer from the Lord. I do not rule out the possibility of one day being Catholic if the Lord calls me, but what I find in the Lord where I am currently calling my home Church, I love. And I love him for what he has given me.

I think you're very wise in this statement. The Lord works with us in different ways John, and I firmly believe, that if the Lord calls you home, you'll know it. Whether or not you act upon that calling...well...that's for you to decide.

One thing that has brought me question though, last I remember of Catholic Church (a LONG time ago) they were singing almost all old hyms (sp?) But now they're singing a lot of the new worship songs, a lot of really "hip" stuff. Is this a recent change?

I don't see it as any more of a change than in Protestant churches. Other than the back-woodsey churches that I grew up in as a child, I'd say most Protestant churches are changing their songs as well.

I like the new songs...it fits my persona...I can only take so much of the old hymns that I've been singing now for 29 years over and over and over and over.

Also, the worship at the mass I have attended is done by a lot of the younger crowd, could this be the reason?

Naw, I don't think so. Matter of fact, the reason why our 6pm Mass is more of a livelier Mass, and has been known as "Teen Mass" is because we do this to offer something to the teens -- in essence, to get them more involved.

 

[John the Engineer]

I will start another thread about the communion. Not as a debate but just to discuss it.

Maybe it's because I'm Foursquare, we're sort of "out there" as Christians go. It's funny now that I think of it. When I mentioned going to my church, my girlfriend said that she knew about Christian Churches, and that "Catholic was better" Almost as if she saw herself as not-Christian.

Anyway, she was brought up in a Christian school, which are almost all Baptist schools. Even I can stand the Baptist ways. I went to one for awhile. They're just too "God is not fun" like. No dancing, of any kind, is allowed. She wanted to go to Catholic school, because they had more fun, but ironically enough the Catholic school by me was just as strict, and still didn't allow dancing!

My church believes in the full gifts of the spirit, speaking in tongues, the gift of prophecy, and all that. We also believe in dancing before the Lord, and having the joy of the Lord in your heart. It's amazing how many people believe you're not supposed to have fun if you're Christian, or following the Lord. Too bad really.

But all the songs, they're all songs that have been in my church, and the churches we visit, for a long time. I remember singing some of these songs at the Foursquare Youth Camps when I was in elementary! But they're written by a lot of those in the Protestant churches. In fact some of them are written by people I know go to our church. It's just such an amazing change.

Sorry, I say Protestant when I mean Pentecostal sometimes. It's just that I always get so backwards from my Navy days when I was going to "Protestant" services instead of "Baptist" or "Catholic" (Only options we had) Most of the Pentecostal churches (or off-shoots or similar non-denominational) have sung these songs for a long time.

But the Pentecostal movement has been making a lot of worship songs, and I was surprised to see them adopted by the Catholic Church. I was just wondering how normal this is. I'm not saying it's wrong, but praise the Lord we all find the same words to worship! In fact, let us raise one united voice to the Lord as far as I'm concerned!

 

[prodromos]

Maybe it's because I'm Foursquare, we're sort of "out there" as Christians go.

Were you aware that an entire Foursquare congregation, "The Carpenter's Company", converted to Orthodoxy in the 90's? I reckon you could classify that as "out there", certainly out of the ordinary .

John

 

[John the Engineer]

Were you aware that an entire Foursquare congregation, "The Carpenter's Company", converted to Orthodoxy in the 90's? I reckon you could classify that as "out there", certainly out of the ordinary .

John

I've seen a lot of "out there" things from a lot of churches. In fact it was my Dad's original church in Colorado that made one of the first women Priests. That's an Episcopalian (Sp?) Church, not Catholic.

But I just read the story you're talking abut. Very interesting. Though to say it was "the entire Foursquare congregation" is not entirely accurate, because it was the leadership that decided, and many people did actually leave the church. But very interesting indeed.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I will start another thread about the communion. Not as a debate but just to discuss it.

Maybe it's because I'm Foursquare, we're sort of "out there" as Christians go. It's funny now that I think of it. When I mentioned going to my church, my girlfriend said that she knew about Christian Churches, and that "Catholic was better" Almost as if she saw herself as not-Christian.

Anyway, she was brought up in a Christian school, which are almost all Baptist schools. Even I can stand the Baptist ways. I went to one for awhile. They're just too "God is not fun" like. No dancing, of any kind, is allowed. She wanted to go to Catholic school, because they had more fun, but ironically enough the Catholic school by me was just as strict, and still didn't allow dancing!

My church believes in the full gifts of the spirit, speaking in tongues, the gift of prophecy, and all that. We also believe in dancing before the Lord, and having the joy of the Lord in your heart. It's amazing how many people believe you're not supposed to have fun if you're Christian, or following the Lord. Too bad really.

But all the songs, they're all songs that have been in my church, and the churches we visit, for a long time. I remember singing some of these songs at the Foursquare Youth Camps when I was in elementary! But they're written by a lot of those in the Protestant churches. In fact some of them are written by people I know go to our church. It's just such an amazing change.

Sorry, I say Protestant when I mean Pentecostal sometimes. It's just that I always get so backwards from my Navy days when I was going to "Protestant" services instead of "Baptist" or "Catholic" (Only options we had) Most of the Pentecostal churches (or off-shoots or similar non-denominational) have sung these songs for a long time.

But the Pentecostal movement has been making a lot of worship songs, and I was surprised to see them adopted by the Catholic Church. I was just wondering how normal this is. I'm not saying it's wrong, but praise the Lord we all find the same words to worship! In fact, let us raise one united voice to the Lord as far as I'm concerned!

Hi John

I was Foursquare for many years. I have such fond and wonderful memories from our church . . I understand your love for your church and for the people you fellowship with . . I received so much from the Foursquare Church I attended that I cannot begin to express my thanks to them. I grew in strength and in the knowledge of the Lord there in incredible ways at times.

All I can say is this (and I hesitate in saying this) . . .as wonderful, as fanstastic as all you have received from your church, experienced in and with your church, shared with your church has been, what I have found (and this you may find very hard to believe I know) is that it is like crumbs falling off the banquet table of our Lord compared to what I have found in Catholicism . . .believe me I know how shocking this sounds - and you may find it tempting to think that perhaps I really didn't receive all that much in my time within the Foursquare Church, but please believe me when I say I did . .

I know this is not where you are at yet, but I just want to encourage you to keep an open mind and heart as to what the Lord has for you in all of this . . you have a heart after the Lord's heart . . you desire Him with all your heart, this I can see. Keep seeking His face and trust Him to lead you into all truth.


Peace in Him!

 

[thereselittleflower]

Hi John

I've been having a lot of problems with my browser and this place . . so I haven't been able to respond many times to something . . now I am trying something different . . keeping my fingers crossed . .

I wanted to address this though . .. so I hope it is ok to go back to this today . .

So if God forgives sins, why is it then that you have to seek confession to the Priest? Can a Catholic seek God and find forgiveness directly? Is it necessary (not optional) for a Catholic to receive absolution from a Priest, in persona Christi, for sins?

Yes, a Catholic can go directly to God to seek forgiveness . . here is what I posted in another thread that I think you might find helpful . .


Regarding Confession . .this might be a little detailed, but I think understanding these points is important.

You can confess your sins privately to God, infact the Church recommends that every day you take stock of the day and confess sins you have committed to God . .

I don't know how you have experienced this in your life, but there are many times when christians question the genuineness of their own repentance, or the devil taunts them with the possibility that they weren't really forgiven . .

The Catholic Church believes there are two types of confessions/contrition . . a perfect act of contrition and an imperfect act of contrition

A perfect act of contrition is when your repentance is 100% genuine and completely absent of anything that has to do with you (ie what you want to avoid - hell, or what you might want to obtain - heaven), but it totally focused on what your sins have done to God . . . this type of repentence or cotrition is very uncommon . . but if you experience such contrition, your sins are most definitely forgiven and you know it beyond any shadow of a doubt . . it is totally God focused, totally not-you focused . .

Imperfect Contrition is when you seek God's forgiveness for any other reason .. you know you did wrong, and you are afraid of the consequences . . you are in any way focused on what might happen to you.

Because Jesus gave to the Apostle's the authoirity to forgive sins, and they passed this authority on to those they ordained, and those passed it on to those they ordained, etc., we can lay hold of this promise when we come to confession and ask God's forgiveness for our sins . .even if we do not experience perfect contrition in our hearts . . when the priest says that your sins are forgiven, you have now the extra ammunition of Christ's promise that indeed, beyond doubt, your sins are forgiven.

When you experience a perfect act of contrition, you have absolutely no doubt about this and the enemy, no matter how hard he tries, can never sway you from you knowing you have been forgiven . . but when you experience an imperfect act of contrition, many doubts can arise, and you do not have that same assurance on your own . .

I do not think many really experience perfect acts of contrition . . and of those who have, I do not think they experience it very often, infact probably very rarely . . but those who have experienced perfect acts of contrition, they absolutely know there is a difference . . . When I had my conversion experience over 30 years ago, I was by myself with God . . and I experienced what I now know to call a perfect act of contrition .. it was a gift from God . . But I cannot say that since that point that I have had this experience again except in a very few, isolated and limited instances . . .

I think that because many have not yet experienced a perfect act of contrition, they have not seen the difference between the two, or are aware there is such a difference . .

When I understood all this and the promise of Christ, I realized what a gift the confessor/priest is to the body of Christ .. and how wonderful this promise is . . When the priest tells you, your sins are forgiven . . you have now another promise of Christ to hold up and say "It is written . . " when the devil assails you with doubt . .

Confession has another element for the Catholic . . for a Catholic to be able to partake in the sacraments, especially the Eucharsit since it is the most commonly received sacrament, they do have to go to confession and receive absolution . . this is to protect them (the individuals), not to prevent them, as the Catholic Church takes very seriously the admonisment by Paul not to partake in the Eucharist Communion unworthily . ..

My girlfriend said once that if her Mom found out she was having sex with me (yes, I know) her Mom would make her go to confession. Is it possible for her to gain forgiveness outside of confession? Or was she not gaining any forgiveness for sin by not going to confession?

I would have to ask you this . . even if she confesses her sin to God alone, is she really repentent? I mean, if you confess a sin, but intend to go on doing a sin, was there real repentence in the first place? So could there be forgiveness by going to God alone? If you confess, as I mentioned above, with imperfect repentence (imperfect contrition) then there is a question in one's mind and heart . . the absolution of a priest overcomes the imperfect element most experience in confesions/repentence/contrition . . this is if you really are sorry and intend to avoid the sin in the future (it does no good to even go to a priest and confess if you have no desire/intent to turn from your sin).

But to repent means to turn 180 degrees the opposite direction and to intend never to commit that sin again . . that does not mean that you won't fail, but that you intend in your heart to flee sin . . if you fall, you confess, receive absolution/forgiveness and go forward . . .

It made me really sad to know that to her confession was simply a punishment and it lost the true purpose in her heart. I would support her in Catholicism, but because of her Mom's nature she is not even Catholic really.

Perhaps there is something else going on here . . I know that the enemy will cloud the mind and thinking about something like this, even in those who really understand it . . her mom seems understands something your girlfriend does not seem to by your words . . that to have sex outside of marriage is a sin, a serious sin . . and this is very damaging to the soul . . You don't have to answer here if you don't want to, but I do want to ask, is this something that happened and is no longer happening? Or is it something that you both are continuing?

confession is not punishment . . that your girlfriend may see it that way is evidence of the enemy clouding her mind and thoughts about it . . this is a very human reaction to having sin exposed . . to expose the sin means that one has to make a decision about it . .are they going to continue in it or turn from it . .

I can tell you that being present at a group of 4th graders going to their first confession . .it was so awesome . . i cannot explain this, but with your background in Foursquare, it might be easier for you to understand what I am saying . .but there was the priest . .and I "saw" that Christ was there with him .. not visibly, not even mentally a figure of Christ . .but in the man the priest, Christ was also there - in him, on him, around him . . How can I explain this? . . I "saw" this . .I don't know how to explain this . .and repentence was being poured out . .so sweet, so beautiful, so heavenly like nothing I have ever experienced before . . I cannot begin to explain what a wonderous experience this was . .words to fail . . I was overcome . .

But I believe you know and understand something of these types of spiritual experiences . . though you may not have expeirenced something exactly like this, I think you know something of what I am speaking about when I say I "saw" this . .


Peace in Him!

 

[John the Engineer]

It's funny that you say you believe you were only receiving the crumbs at Foursquare church, because I used a similar analogy when I described it to my Mom. When I go to my church I feel the Lord moving, see the spirit of the Lord poured out over the congregation. Worship is vibrant, alive, people rejoice the the Lord. I have seen the Lord come alive in the hearts of young people and see them set on fire to pursue his will. The teachings we have in our services are strong, deep, insightful looks into the scripture.

However at the Catholic Mass I have attended I see so much less. I see a lot of songs actually brought out of churches like mine. Songs written by Protestants and songs that I have found the praise to the Lord in. But around me worship is words that are read, some barely bothering to follow along. Every minister I hear is giving milk to the paritioners for teaching. There is no meat, no depth to the sermon. This may sound very cruel, but I feel like I watch as a group of people does what they have to do to take care of "God" for the week. And while I see where the Spirit of the Lord could exist, where he could move, it is not there. Why is it that the songs of praise are being written by those outside the Catholic Church? Why is there nobody who cries out to the Lord to exalt his name?

It is in the eyes of children that faith in the Lord is the most evident. This is also why I believe the enemy has made an attack against the children of the church by using the corruption of Priests.

I have seen many moves of the spirit in my church. I have watched miracles be performed, and seen the joy of the Lord flow into people's lives. But the greatest thing I enjoy every time I go to my church is just purely the praise of his people calling on the Lord and truly letting his spirit flow.

Where are you from? Unfortunately to say "Foursquare" doesn't always contain the same context. I have been to a lot of Foursquare churches that have not been ... moving in the spirit? I remember one story of a Pastor I knew who visited a church (I forget where) and as he was waiting for service to start he said he heard the Lord's voice, then he asked, "Where are you Lord?" and the Lord responded, "I'm out here on the curb!" He said, "What're you doing there Lord, service is about to start!" and the Lord said to him, "I'm out here cause they don't want me in there!" Funny story I always remember.

Anyway, I have been to a few Catholic Churches now. And many other churches too. And with that I know what I am receiving at my home church is truly a blessing. I would love to visit more Catholic Churches that have the spirit of the Lord truly moving, but right now I have found no better move of his spirit than where I am. And though I may visit elsewhere my home is with the Church On The Way! (You can listen in on the radio if you want, or on the internet too come to think of it!)

 

[thereselittleflower]

It's funny that you say you believe you were only receiving the crumbs at Foursquare church, because I used a similar analogy when I described it to my Mom. When I go to my church I feel the Lord moving, see the spirit of the Lord poured out over the congregation. Worship is vibrant, alive, people rejoice the the Lord. I have seen the Lord come alive in the hearts of young people and see them set on fire to pursue his will. The teachings we have in our services are strong, deep, insightful looks into the scripture.

However at the Catholic Mass I have attended I see so much less. I see a lot of songs actually brought out of churches like mine. Songs written by Protestants and songs that I have found the praise to the Lord in. But around me worship is words that are read, some barely bothering to follow along. Every minister I hear is giving milk to the paritioners for teaching. There is no meat, no depth to the sermon. This may sound very cruel, but I feel like I watch as a group of people does what they have to do to take care of "God" for the week. And while I see where the Spirit of the Lord could exist, where he could move, it is not there. Why is it that the songs of praise are being written by those outside the Catholic Church? Why is there nobody who cries out to the Lord to exalt his name?

It is in the eyes of children that faith in the Lord is the most evident. This is also why I believe the enemy has made an attack against the children of the church by using the corruption of Priests.

I have seen many moves of the spirit in my church. I have watched miracles be performed, and seen the joy of the Lord flow into people's lives. But the greatest thing I enjoy every time I go to my church is just purely the praise of his people calling on the Lord and truly letting his spirit flow.

Where are you from? Unfortunately to say "Foursquare" doesn't always contain the same context. I have been to a lot of Foursquare churches that have not been ... moving in the spirit? I remember one story of a Pastor I knew who visited a church (I forget where) and as he was waiting for service to start he said he heard the Lord's voice, then he asked, "Where are you Lord?" and the Lord responded, "I'm out here on the curb!" He said, "What're you doing there Lord, service is about to start!" and the Lord said to him, "I'm out here cause they don't want me in there!" Funny story I always remember.

Anyway, I have been to a few Catholic Churches now. And many other churches too. And with that I know what I am receiving at my home church is truly a blessing. I would love to visit more Catholic Churches that have the spirit of the Lord truly moving, but right now I have found no better move of his spirit than where I am. And though I may visit elsewhere my home is with the Church On The Way! (You can listen in on the radio if you want, or on the internet too come to think of it!)

hi John

I can assure you that our Foursquare Church moved in the spirit! Very dynamic . .

And I looked at Churches that did not do so much the way you are now . . but then, after I married, we went to a Nazarene Church . . I felt led by the Holy Spirit to do so (I resisted at first) . . and I thought that Church was mostly dead . . it took a long while for the Lord to work in my heart to see past the lack of the movement of the spirit manifested to something else that was at work therer . . these people did not experience the power of the Holy Spirit in their lives like I had been a part of before . . and I judged them in my heart accordingly . . but God showed me something deeper was at work . . and thus began my "re-education" into what being "spiritual" really meant . .

Then the Lord called me back to a very dynamic, powerful but small church . non-denominational . .and this was the first church I had been a part of where people truly loved each other, where the church was a family, where what I had envisioned of the early church was present . . and the power of God flowed so strongly in this church . .powerfully . . I had now found a church where God's lover and power was joined to true humility in a powerful way . . but before I came to this church, I went through something very profound in my own walk with the Lord . . something I cannot go into detail here . . . . there is such a thing as the Dark Night of the soul which St,.John of the Cross describes . . it is deeper and darker than you can imagine . . . and as I came out of this expeirence, God put in my path the pastor of this Church .. he is one of the very few I have confided the details of this experience to and what appeared to precipitate it, at least peceeded it . . .

I began to go much deeper in the my Christian faith, God put very holy people in my path . . I began to understand depths of our walk with Christ I had never even imagined . .

John . .knowing God is not about being part of these dynamic moves of the spirit . . we can seek the Hand of God till we are blue in the face, we can experience the Hand of God till we go numb with delight . . but that does not bring us any closer to knowng the FACE of God!

The people in that Nazarene Church were closer to God than I was in many ways . . God delights in giving us experiences of His goodness . . but He delights in our heart's yearning for Him, for His face rather than His Hand . .

He wants us to seek His face . . not His hand . . when we are willing to let go of the experience of His hand . .then God can really start to do something with us . . ..


If you came to my church, you would feel the same way as you have at other Cahtolic Churches . . but let me tell you what I experience . .

Gone is any desire for the emotional, dynamic high of the services I had once been a part of . . now is a hunger for something deeper, more real that you are talking about . . (I have been there, I know!)

Now, I when I go to Mass, I expierience God in a deeper way. I have experienced all the manifestations of God's presence and power without the dynamics of loud praise and worship simply in the act of the consecration of the Eucharist . . I have been kneeling during the consecration and have experienced a wave after wave of God's presence stream through the church and through me . . uncontrollably shaking (I am sure you know how this feels) and deep sobbing . . When I have gone up for a blessing, the closer I get to the preist, the heavier the presence of the Holy Spirit becomes (of course, it is not always the same, just as in each of your services, your expeirence of God is not always the same) sometimes I find it difficult to remain standing and I am trembling (an trying to hide it ) many times oil has appeared on my forehead where the priest traced the sign of the cross . . he had no oil on his hands, had not touched oil at all . .

The first time I had been to a Mass (I forgot about this until now) was at a friends Quincinera . . when the priest consecrated the host, and I was in no way expecting this, but the presence of the Lord began to flow back in stronger and stronger waves . . like waves of a river . . I just stayed there kneeling soaking it in . .

I am in a class every monday right now at our Church . . and a couple of weeks ago I had an experience that I found difficult to describe . . but we were all there together, with a priest teaching on the history of the church . .and I felt, experienced the depths of this Church . . we were knit together in an intircate manner, and our roots went way, way, way down deep into the bedrock . .many, many hundreds of feet down .. . there was an experience of the eternal nature of the Church . .

It will be very easy for you to dismiss my experiences as superficial, that this poor woman really didn't have the depth of walk with her Lord that she thought she did , and there is nothing that I can say that will convince you ..

But everything that I experienced in all my years in the Forusquare and other churches, and especially in the last one I was a part of, I have experienced in the Catholic Church, and much more deeply and profoundly . .

If your heart and mind is open, you will put all this before God . . dynamic is great .. but it is not the be all and end all of the Catholic faith .. there is much more . . . simplicity of spirit, mind, heart, of worship, of life . .

Miracles are not in short supply in the Catholic Church . .they are so numerous that the Church does not make so much of them that they make them so public . .

I hope you will read about this one man .. Brother Andre . . I stumbled on a show about him a few weeks ago . . this man was gentle, humble, lowly . . great miracles were done through him .. when he died, the world mourned him . . and this is no exageration . .the throngs of people at his funeral procession and around the world were so great, you would have thought a much beloved head of state had died, or the pope himself . .

http://www.catholicism.org/pages/andre.htm

It is not necessarily in overt experiences of dynamic worship or fellowship in which we can experience God .. in fact, the deepet treasures of Christ are not found there . .


Peace in Him!





You do not need an emotional high to experience the power of God . .