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nephilimiyr said:Hello genez
I agree, man today classifies his guesses as facts based upon what is known but never wanting to come to the conclussion that what is known is only a small fraction of what there is to know and there are many things yet for us to understand that can make what we know to be true today is actually not true at all..
genez said:That is not the case. I simply do not know how to classify the humanoid creation. For if it was the same as ours, then Jesus would have to die for their souls. But, these were not a part of this world. Jesus only died for the sins of this world. "World" in the Bible quite often speaks of all mankind that exists in this creation.
Professor Stan Ashby (Ancient Languages, Harvard) who after retirement taught at a Bible College, taught on the word used by Jeremiah. "People", he explained, was a generic term used for men.
Like the word "cat" can be used for a tom cat and a mountain lion, this term was used for mankind. Has there been any time in our history that mankind was wiped out?
Mass extinctions may have not have always come from God's hand. Satan when he fell lost his perfection. And, like when Adam fell, the existing creation fell with him.
nephilimiyr said:There maybe some gap theorists that say the geologic evidence points to the gap theory being correct, oh well, so do evolutionists and creationists.
genez said:Yet, the only one that remains CONSISTENT with the evidence and God's Word is the GAP theory. Just because YEC's distort the evidence to fit... and TOE's run with a theory that seems to be logical, but denies God's Word; does not make them equal standing with the GAP theory. The GAP theory preceded the other two.
The fossil evidence revealed the validity later on of what scholars saw in Scripture.
The other two theories distort God's Word in order to be accepted.
I am the average person and I do think like that. You wont ever hear me argueing scientific evidence's because I haven't studied them nor do I understand them. Science was always my least favorite subject in school and remains so even now.gluadys said:Maybe the average person thinks like that. Anyone who works in science or follows the work of scientists would emphatically agree that we know only a small fraction of what there is to know. A fraction much smaller than 10%, probably smaller than 1%.
gluadys said:It is not so much explaining the geological record as being consistent with it. I realize gap theory was created from studying the bible long before we had any inkling of the age of the earth, so it was not developed in order to explain the geologic record.
But it does seem to me that in the 19th century, gap theorists appropriated the geological discovery of the antiquity of the earth as a scientific validation that they were on the right track as compared to young earth theories. So while geologic evidence would not be necessary, it was seen as providing a welcome additional support.
Now that is what I gleaned from a very brief investigation of gap theory nearly 30 years ago. Things may have changed since then.
If the gap was an actual occurrence in the history of the earth, the gap theorist does need to know when it occurred and how long it lasted and when it ended. A global destruction of the sort envisaged by gap theory could not fail to leave its mark in the geologic record, just as the meteor impact of 65 million years ago left a global record of iridium in the earth.
If one cannot identify the occurrence of the gap geologically, the only rational explanation is that it did not happen in history.
The same applies biologically. If just prior to 6,000 years ago there was no life on earth at all, and it was all created rapidly in 6 days, the genetic markers in the genomes of all species should show a bottleneck occurring at that time. They don't.
So I can understand if modern gap theorists have moved away from suggesting that science supports the theory. That may have appeared to be the case in the early 1800s, but it depended on a superficial view of geology. The more detailed view of geology, and now of genetics, offered by modern science clearly contradicts gap theory as a correct model of the history of life on earth.
I don't quarrel with the gap interpretation of Gen. 1:2. Its a possibility, maybe a probability. But reading over genez's explanations of gap theory from the bible, I find gap theory tends to build a gigantic and unknowable history on the slender foundation of the correct interpretation of a single word in the bible. I don't think the basis is sufficient to support the super-structure.
For example, do you agree with genez that the purpose of different creations was to instruct angels? Where, in scripture does that idea come from?
That's true, but my perspective is not as detailed and defined as genez's though. I hold to a basic belief in the "gap" and since I have come to this belief I have left it alone. I don't believe my belief in origins(or however it should be discribed as) is as important as learning how to continue to die to myself and live for Christ. I believe I have come to the truth in this matter and have moved on.gluadys said:Great. I am glad to have a second person who subscribes to gap theory in the conversation. I expect that like most theories everyone brings a personal perspective that is a little different.
Thank you for that. We gappers usually get that from the YEKs though who for some reason want to claim this is a whole new theory. It isn't.It is not so much explaining the geological record as being consistent with it. I realize gap theory was created from studying the bible long before we had any inkling of the age of the earth, so it was not developed in order to explain the geologic record.
LOL, do you you realize that you did what you accuse people who don't believe in evolution do. Interesting. You say you had a very brief investigation of the gap nearly 30 years ago but it seems to me you have written it off completely without any real good understanding of it.But it does seem to me that in the 19th century, gap theorists appropriated the geological discovery of the antiquity of the earth as a scientific validation that they were on the right track as compared to young earth theories. So while geologic evidence would not be necessary, it was seen as providing a welcome additional support.
Now that is what I gleaned from a very brief investigation of gap theory nearly 30 years ago. Things may have changed since then.
And you will find, if I stick around long enough, that many of us don't do this. It's viewed by me as unecessary.Yes, as noted above, that has been my understanding.
Who's to say that God has to create or to reform in a way that is understandable to you? You basically say that the evidence must be there but you're the one saying that, not God. We know God has made mysteries of many things only to find out that He reveals those mysteries at a time when He feels fit.If the gap was an actual occurrence in the history of the earth, the gap theorist does need to know when it occurred and how long it lasted and when it ended. A global destruction of the sort envisaged by gap theory could not fail to leave its mark in the geologic record, just as the meteor impact of 65 million years ago left a global record of iridium in the earth.
That would be putting God and how He creates into a box by saying God had to do it this way and since you don't see it being done in that way then those things are false.If one cannot identify the occurrence of the gap geologically, the only rational explanation is that it did not happen in history.
I can't argue these things with you because I don't know, I wouldn't even know where to begin.The same applies biologically. If just prior to 6,000 years ago there was no life on earth at all, and it was all created rapidly in 6 days, the genetic markers in the genomes of all species should show a bottleneck occurring at that time. They don't.
While scientists differ somewhat on the occasion of the last bottleneck in human history, none suggests a date more recent than 70,000 years ago. Furthermore, there is no simultaneous bottleneck in all species since the mass extinction of 65 million years ago.
Interesting, G.H. Pember wrote his book on the gap theory back in 1876 called Earth's Earliest Ages and never attempted to prove it by scientific evidence's.So I can understand if modern gap theorists have moved away from suggesting that science supports the theory. That may have appeared to be the case in the early 1800s, but it depended on a superficial view of geology. The more detailed view of geology, and now of genetics, offered by modern science clearly contradicts gap theory as a correct model of the history of life on earth.
That would be one of the areas in this where genez and I disagree.I don't quarrel with the gap interpretation of Gen. 1:2. Its a possibility, maybe a probability. But reading over genez's explanations of gap theory from the bible, I find gap theory tends to build a gigantic and unknowable history on the slender foundation of the correct interpretation of a single word in the bible. I don't think the basis is sufficient to support the super-structure.
For example, do you agree with genez that the purpose of different creations was to instruct angels? Where, in scripture does that idea come from?
LOL, yes that's true. I remember getting in some debates here where no matter what I said or no matter what link I post that proved the oposite as being true they still wanted to accuse me and other gappers as "wanting the best of both worlds". To be fair I also heard this from TEs, though not as much.genez said:The original Gap folks had no axe to grind. It was seen as being evident from what the Scripture teaches. It was not created as a means to counter Darwin as YEC's always scream as they hold their ears being told that is not so.
I admitt that when I first heard of the gap theory I sort of thought the same thing. Growing up in the RCC I was taught that God created in 6 days everything that we see. When I got into high school and learned about evolution I became quite confused. I found myself having to chose either between having faith that God created everything in the way I was taught or that there was no God and everything came about by chance. When I first heard about the gap theory I was like "cool, someone came up with a good arguement for both evolution and the 6 day creation story" but I didn't investigate it any further as they were only footnotes in a Bible I had at the time.Again, the insight they saw into God's Word shows that at that time no religious bias was driving them to force them to see this existence of prior creation. YEC's have been screaming its only a recent theory. Keep that in mind. Because of that it gets rejected by Christians who believe what they are told without checking it out for themselves.
I agree and I would be one of those people.GAP'ers have not moved away from suggesting that science is supporting the insight. Some who have been taught the insight and only have an academic grasp may seem that way. If anything, the data has led some into even deeper insight of God's Word.
I agree. You have used this anology before and it's an oldie but goodie.Here is why it does not hang on one word. Ilustration:
"In the beginning Henry Ford created the Model T."
(pause indicated in the Hebrew... silence..... now, fade back in)...
"And the Model T was (became) sitting on cinder blocks, all gutted and rusting out."
Either way it was worded? We know that is not the way Mr. Ford created the car to be! It had to "become" that way! Yet, because of the dramatic effect of presenting this section of Scripture as likened to a script as for a play. With the pause, and fade back in, it reveals a gap in time had taken place just the same.
For the reader would have to know that it took time for the car to become that way. So, it can read "became" or! "was", and it will make no difference to what took place! The cause and effect are just the same!
The problem is that Hebrew scholars can be absolute fanatics for the details! Because of this, they can become stubborn and blinded by contradiction to what they find, but fail to look outside the box they just constructed. They can get their eyes locked on one small dot on the map, and not see the big picture.
I believe that was the cause of this great debate. It is not over the big picture. They have been diverted (and blinded) by putting all their concentration on one tiny detail only. For, it does not matter how "hayah" is translated! What the other words show us, reveals there had to be a an unknown gap in time in order to allow for the creation to become as it had.
nephilimiyr said:I am the average person and I do think like that.
Science was always my least favorite subject in school and remains so even now.
Here's my understanding of theory. Scientists have many evidence's before them in which they hypothesize; assume or suppose. They then form a hypothesis; they form a supposition, a foundation to work with. When they have formulated enough evidence to support their suppositions through observing experiments in a working hypothesis they have then created a theory.
With that being said, I have to believe that since we're only talking about less than 1% of the data we are makeing a guess about the other 99%.
and because I believe God contradicts the theory of evolution
I do believe in evolutionary processes. Micro evolution is fact to me and is apart of that less than 1% that we do know but macro evolution is a guess that I believe the other 99% of knowledge will show to be false.
genez said:A meteor so huge as to effect the entire planet? And they can not find the meteor? Any theories of what became of such a huge meteor?
"Pre-historic" is only relative to human history. There is no "pre-history" in earth history. And in all the 4.5 years there is no gap of the sort you describe. Your description would be apt for the very early earth, before any life existed, say 4.5 to 4.0 billion years ago. But earth history does not show any repetition of such conditions in the last 3.8 billion years i.e since the beginning of the fossil record.The Bible leaves it as being prehistoric.
The entire earth's surface in Genesis 1:2 was being washed over with raging water. A great deal of that water dissappeared suddenly as God separated land from water.
Interesting to find that oil is decayed biological matter. Right? And, add to that, what appears to be sea water if found on the top layer of buried oil.
As I see it. Much of the last surface creation was suspended in this raging water and when God separated the land from water, had the debris sucked below the surface of the earth. These were used to create oil deposits man found later on. After all, it has been called "Dino oil" for good reason! The other creations were already imbedded below the surface and this flooding of the entire planet did not wash those away.
Sounds like someone just snapped their fingers and you're hypnotized again back into your old mantra. GAP'ers have not moved away from suggesting that science is supporting the insight.
Some who have been taught the insight and only have an academic grasp may seem that way. If anything, the data has led some into even deeper insight of God's Word.
Such is the reason it does not matter how one translates "hayah" in Genesis 1:2! The context reveals that the earth had to become that way.
God would not have created the world as a chaotic mess with an eerie emptiness about it.
We first need to be able to see that there was a gap in time, and something terrible took place during that interval. That God did not create the world this way in the beginning.
What we find in Genesis 1:2, is hardly reason to break out in song and joy! The original creation (which was in the beginning) was glorious and wonderful!
nephilimiyr said:I don't believe my belief in origins(or however it should be discribed as) is as important as learning how to continue to die to myself and live for Christ. I believe I have come to the truth in this matter and have moved on.
LOL, do you you realize that you did what you accuse people who don't believe in evolution do.
Interesting. You say you had a very brief investigation of the gap nearly 30 years ago but it seems to me you have written it off completely without any real good understanding of it.
Who's to say that God has to create or to reform in a way that is understandable to you?
You basically say that the evidence must be there but you're the one saying that, not God.
I am convinced that God isn't concerned about our understanding of His creative power as much as He is concerned with whether we will trust in Him.
That would be putting God and how He creates into a box by saying God had to do it this way and since you don't see it being done in that way then those things are false.
You forget that the gap theory doesn't give dates and times.
The gap theory doesn't do this because the word of God doesn't do this. You mentioned a meteor that happend over 65 million years ago.
Could this be what made the earth formless and void? I don't know, I suppose it could be but why should I speculate?
You want the gap theory to give you dates and times and events but the gap theory doesn't operate in a science, it operates in interpretation.
You want the earth to tell you that the gap theory is true through evidence?
Just remember one thing, when God reformed the earth in Genesis 1 He reformed it in a perfect state. You say God had to leave the evidence of destruction, the evidence of it having been formless and void, I say no He doesn't...if He wants to hide some of that evidence and yet reveal some of that evidence then that is His prerogative, I'm more than sure He has His reasons.
Interesting, G.H. Pember wrote his book on the gap theory back in 1876 called Earth's Earliest Ages and never attempted to prove it by scientific evidence's.
That would be one of the areas in this where genez and I disagree.
gluadys said:And that is where we disagree. I believe truth can never contradict God's word because God's word is truth. So since evolution is true, it must be God's word. If my reading of scripture suggests otherwise, something is amiss in the way I am reading scripture. I would never assume that my way of reading scripture is the right way of reading scripture.
This only shows that you are (as you admit) not knowledgeable about the science of evolution. Since micro-evolution exists, macro-evolution is inevitable. There is considerable positive evidence for macro-evolution and no falsification of it. Science considers speciation to be macro-evolution and speciation has been observed. So technically we have actually observed macro-evolution and even created it in laboratory conditions.
Today I read through this thread...UG...and a few times you had admonished someone for not agreeing with evolution since they haven't studied it in depth or at all. You are saying you don't see the gap theory as being true but you admit that you never studied it but only had a brief investigation of it 30 years ago. If I came on here and told you that evolution was total bunk because 30 years ago I had a brief investigation of it and found it to be untrue what would be your response?gluadys said:No, I am not following you here.
When God acts on physical matter there are physical consequences. If God's action is significant enough, the physical consequences should be observable. The sort of global destruction gap theology proposes would be an action of such significance that there should be observable geologic and paleontologic evidence of it, as well as evidence in ice cores, varves, dendrochronology and genetic markers.
LOL, well that was sweet...I'll let you have your moment, I probably had it comin.I agree. That is a reason for accepting evolution and rejecting gap theology. I trust in the word of God as it has been revealed in the work of God. I trust that scripture does not contradict the testimony of the work of Gods' own hands.
Gap theologians do though.
And that is precisely my problem with it. It is all interpretation.
Well I do believe the gap theory is accurate historicly but it is very, very, vague. God does not give us any detail at all in His word when the original creation began and from that point He doesn't give us any kind of idea when the earth became formless and void or even how long it stayed in this state. I do believe however that the 6 days of reformation were actual 6, 24 hour days that happend somewhere in the vicinity of 6,000 years ago. Sorry but that's what I believe.If your claim is limited to "Gap theology provides a rational way to read the bible" I have no problem with that. I disagree, but that is a different story. But as soon as you want to assert that it is not just an interpretation of scripture, but refers to actual historical events, that claim must be judged against the historical evidence.
Would it surprise you at all if I told you I could careless if scientists say I have a dilemma to get out of? In short, you're starting to sound like a YEC!In short you invoke a miracle to get out of a scientific dilemma.
nephilimiyr said:However, when it comes to evolution I don't think it is as simple and clear cut as you make it out to be.
For instance I reject the idea of macro evolution because I don't believe it has ever been observed in laboratory conditions or in the fossil record.
Instead, we have been given no missing linkor intermediate fossils of animals that were in the process of developing from one type of animal to another.
Quite simply, the theory of evolution is built on what scientists want to see, or even what they expect to see, but not on what they do see.
So, according to evolutionists, there should be about 100,000,000 years worth of missing links during the time it took for fish to evolve from mamals invertebrates.
Once again, Instead, there are no intermediate fossils, only fully developed fish or fully developed invertebrates. No fossil that looks even remotely like an invertebrate on the road to evolving into a fish has ever been discovered.
Evolutionists also claim it took upwards of 50,000,000 years or more for fish to evolve into amphibians. But again, there are no intermediate transitional fossils. Not a single fossil with part fins, part feet has ever been discovered.
The evidence that you need to show that macro evolution has taken place does not exist.
Don't tell me about laboratory experiments because that means nothing to me. I know enough about gene manipulation to know that you can greatly change something into what it was not intended to be and that would not be evolution but plain old manipulation.
And no I would not expect to see macro evolution just because I am able to observe micro evolution.
Any belief on macro evolution is just that, it's a belief on what you would expect, not on what you have observed.
gluadys said:You bet it isn't! But most errors are about the simple stuff---the basic theory. When people are clear on those, then we can consider the genuine complexities of evolution.
You can believe whatever you want, but when you believe what is contrary to fact the fact doesn't change. Macro-evolution (speciation) has been observed in the wild and produced in the laboratory.
Most people who resist accepting this fact don't accept standard definition of species. What they really want to see is saltation. A change on the magnitude of a dog to a cat. Sorry, evolution will not oblige. Evolution is based on species change and speciation, not on jumping gaps from one family to another. See the Dawkins quote in my sig.
Sure you have. Acanthostega, Archeopteryx, Australopithecus, Pakicetus, Sinornithosaurus, Orohippus, Deinotherium to name only a handful out of thousands of transitional species.
You can give me all the excuses you want, but it simply comes down to not accepting the standard definition of transitional and looking for evidence science doesn't claim to provide.
Of course, Gish wrote his book to convince you of that. But have you ever checked out Gish's assumptions about science against real science? Gish believes atheists understand science and theists don't. I know that from questioning him personally at one of his presentations. Give him a strictly scientific definition of evolution or something related to evolution and a definition that is skewed to support atheism, and he takes the latter to be correct.
No, not according to evolutionists. Only creationists make this claim.
By the way, do you know how many fossils would form in 100,000,000 years? How about the number of fossils that would be eroded away in 100,000,000 years?
Check out conodonts, hemi-chordates and Pikaia. Creationists only get away with this no transitional fossil business because they never show the evidence which does exist. After all it would pretty much blow their case to show you what they claim does not exist.
http://home.comcast.net/~aronra/Clades.htm#One%20subset%20of%20Deuterostomia%20is%20Chordata,%20Deuterostomes%20with%20a%20spinal%20chord.
So you never heard of this guy:
Just one of several tetrapoda which developed fins with fingers and toes while still maintaining a fully aquatic life---their limbs could not support their weight on land.
What you mean is that you haven't seen it. And you haven't seen it because you haven't looked for it. And you haven't looked for it because you have assumed there is nothing to look for.
Actually my favorite example of speciation in the laboratory involved no genetic manipulation at all. All the genetic change occurred in response to environmental changes in the habitat of several different populations of fruit flies. And it occurred without scientists using any genetic engineering or a single dose of radiation. They actually turned one group of fruit flies into carnivores by offering them meat instead of fruit to eat. But no genetic manipulation at all. Only good old-fashioned mutation + natural selection.
You should. Macro-evolution is the inevitable outcome of micro-evolution. Unless there is a way of stopping micro-evolution at some point, macro-evolution cannot be avoided. There is no evidence that a natural mechanism exists to prevent a continual accumulation of micro-evolution through time with the consequence being macro-evolution.
Given the scientific understanding that speciation is macro-evolution, we have observed it, for we have observed speciation. As for macro-evolution on longer time scales, I may not be able to observe it in my life-time but I can observe evidence that makes no sense whatsoever except as a consequence of macro-evolution.
nephilimiyr said:Today I read through this thread...UG...and a few times you had admonished someone for not agreeing with evolution since they haven't studied it in depth or at all. You are saying you don't see the gap theory as being true but you admit that you never studied it but only had a brief investigation of it 30 years ago. If I came on here and told you that evolution was total bunk because 30 years ago I had a brief investigation of it and found it to be untrue what would be your response?
Ok but what does the gap theory say God did after this period of time that the earth was without form and void? The gap theory says God reformed it and Genesis 1 describes this reforming. I don't understand this complication of understanding that if God reformed the earth to it's once perfect state that the imperfect earth would not exist anymore. What was broken, He fixed. You expect to see scars but why?
If you saw scars then God's handy work wouldn't be all that handy would it?
Well I do believe the gap theory is accurate historicly but it is very, very, vague.
I do believe however that the 6 days of reformation were actual 6, 24 hour days that happend somewhere in the vicinity of 6,000 years ago. Sorry but that's what I believe.
Would it surprise you at all if I told you I could careless if scientists say I have a dilemma to get out of? In short, you're starting to sound like a YEC!
nephilimiyr said:But I think gluadys was more objecting to your idea of what the purpose of God was and the angels then a basic belief in the gap. She says that in scripture she could see the gap theory as a possibility but not what you're saying about the angels and God's purpose.
gluadys said:The geologic record does show times of global catastrophe and mass extinction -- five in all with the sixth occurring today. The problem is that it shows no mass extinction which completely wiped out all life on earth. One (snowball earth) destroyed 98% of all species living at the time, but 2% survived into the next non-catastrophic period.
A global destruction of the sort envisaged by gap theory could not fail to leave its mark in the geologic record, just as the meteor impact of 65 million years ago left a global record of iridium in the earth.
gluadys said:And that is where we disagree. I believe truth can never contradict God's word because God's word is truth. So since evolution is true, it must be God's word.
If my reading of scripture suggests otherwise, something is amiss in the way I am reading scripture. I would never assume that my way of reading scripture is the right way of reading scripture.
This only shows that you are (as you admit) not knowledgeable about the science of evolution. Since micro-evolution exists, macro-evolution is inevitable. There is considerable positive evidence for macro-evolution and no falsification of it. Science considers speciation to be macro-evolution and speciation has been observed. So technically we have actually observed macro-evolution and even created it in laboratory conditions.
I am.gluadys said:As I said, believing something contradicted by the facts does not change the facts. If you are comfortable with that position, that is up to you.
And if you're comfortable with that position, that is up to you.LOL! Another reason I have never given gap theory much thought before is that it always struck me as being essetially YECism. Genez' position and yours on the time of reformation give me ample reason to continue to classify gap theology as a variation of YEC.
Both you and YECists place the creation of everything we are familiar with just 6,000 years ago. You don't as YECists do, try to shoe-horn long extinct species into that time frame, but otherwise, all the reasons not to accept YECism apply just as strongly to gap theology.
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