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dies-l

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To Dean:

Let me ask something. If a person claimed to have placed their faith in Jesus, yet continued to be wilfully disbedient to Him, would you be inclined to believe that that person truly had placed their faith in him?

Our actions always, even if imperfectly, reflect our beliefs and the object of our faith. This has been my point, and I believe that this is James' point as well.
 
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DeaconDean

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To Dean:

Let me ask something. If a person claimed to believe in the authortiy of Jesus, yet continued to be disbedient to Him, would you be inclined to believe that person?

Our actions always, even if imperfectly, reflect our beliefs and the object of our faith. This has been my point, and I believe that this is James' point as well.

You know, nearly all Baptist, nearly all Protestant theologians from the 1500's down to today, all agree that one cannot be declared "righteous" without also being declared "justified." (John Gill, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Charles Hodge, James P. Boyce, John L. Dagg, Arthur W. Pink, John McArthur, John Piper, etc.)

And that has been my contention all through this thread.

If a persons faith is true, if it saving, then a person is declared righteous, declared justified. There is no condemnation to them that the Law contains.

However, the passage in James which you and so many others always quote say that "a man is justifed by works, and not faith alone."

Justification is a legal term in which God the righteous Judge has said that the "Law" cannot condemn the believer because the believer has not transgressed the "Law".

Do you actually believe that James taught one can work off the condemnationof the "Law" through works? (cf Jas. 2:24)

But that is another argument.

The contention of this thread was to define what does it mean to be accepted of God. Are we accepted of God thought the redeeming blood of Jesus Christ, or is it through doing works of righteousness?

Clearly, the bible says it it is thought Jesus Christ.

We have been "adopted" of God though Jesus Christ. (cf. Rom. 8:15, 23; Gal. 4:5; Eph. 1:5)

If I am adopted, I am accepted. Without "works". Period.

My acceptance to God does not rest on works as James teaches. My acceptance of God rests in the Savior. It is though the Savior I have "justification." Not of works.

So once again I ask you, are you justified by faith as Paul says, or are you justified by works as James teaches?

A simple question.

And I'll ask once again:

The contention of this thread was to define what does it mean to be accepted of God. Are we accepted of God thought the redeeming blood of Jesus Christ, or is it through doing works of righteousness?

Clearly, the bible says it it is thought Jesus Christ.

Another realitively simple (or so I thought) question.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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dies-l

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FTR, if we are going to disregard the book of James, because of perceived contradictions with the doctrine of salvation that has been imputed to Paul on this thread, we should also reevaluate the following

Matthew 6 (esp. v. 16) -- God will not forgive those who do not forgive.

Matthew 7:15-23 -- "A good tree bears good fruit."
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 25:14-30 -- The parable to talents/lazy servant condemned for laziness and wickedness.

Matthew 25:31-46 -- (esp. 41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' )

1 Cor. 6:9-20 -- "Wicked do not inherit the kingdom"

Romans 6 (esp. vv. 1, 11-13, 15-18) -- As slaves to righteousness, we must be obedient.

Hebrews 11 -- Notice the repeated use of the phrase "By faith, [so and so] did [such and such]" (e.g., "By faith, Noah . . . built an ark" & "By faith, Abraham . . . . obeyed . . ." Every person mentioned as faithful is identified by their faithful actions.)

So, James is not the only one that teaches about an interrelationship between faith, works, and salvation
 
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dies-l

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You know, nearly all Baptist, nearly all Protestant theologians from the 1500's down to today, all agree that one cannot be declared "righteous" without also being declared "justified." (John Gill, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Charles Hodge, James P. Boyce, John L. Dagg, Arthur W. Pink, John McArthur, John Piper, etc.)

And that has been my contention all through this thread.

If a persons faith is true, if it saving, then a person is declared righteous, declared justified. There is no condemnation to them that the Law contains.

However, the passage in James which you and so many others always quote say that "a man is justifed by works, and not faith alone."

Justification is a legal term in which God the righteous Judge has said that the "Law" cannot condemn the believer because the believer has not transgressed the "Law".

Do you actually believe that James taught one can work off the condemnationof the "Law" through works? (cf Jas. 2:24)

But that is another argument.

The contention of this thread was to define what does it mean to be accepted of God. Are we accepted of God thought the redeeming blood of Jesus Christ, or is it through doing works of righteousness?

Clearly, the bible says it it is thought Jesus Christ.

We have been "adopted" of God though Jesus Christ. (cf. Rom. 8:15, 23; Gal. 4:5; Eph. 1:5)

If I am adopted, I am accepted. Without "works". Period.

My acceptance to God does not rest on works as James teaches. My acceptance of God rests in the Savior. It is though the Savior I have "justification." Not of works.

So once again I ask you, are you justified by faith as Paul says, or are you justified by works as James teaches?

A simple question.

And I'll ask once again:



Another realitively simple (or so I thought) question.

God Bless

Till all are one.

We are saved by the redeeming blood of Christ, through faith. I don't see how this contradicts James at all. James just helps us to understand what genuine faith looks like.
 
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DeaconDean

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We are saved by the redeeming blood of Christ, through faith. I don't see how this contradicts James at all. James just helps us to understand what genuine faith looks like.

Lets look at one thing more then I am going to not respond anymore to your posts.

"orate oti ex ergwn dikaioutai anqrwpoV kai ouk ek pistewV monon." -Jas. 2:24 (GNT)

Lets concentrate on this one word: "dikaioutai "

From The New Analytical Greek Lexicon:

"dikaiow" (Strongs Number 1344) to make or render right or just, mid. to act with justice, Rev. 22:11; to avouch to be good and true, to vindicate, Mt. 11:19; Lk. 7:29; et.al.; to set forth as good and just, Lk. 10:29; 16:15; et.al.; in N.T. to hold as guiltless, to accept as righteous, to justify, Rom. 3:26, 30; 4:5; 8:30, 33; et.al.; pass. to be held acquitted, to be cleared, Acts 13:39; Rom. 3:24; 6:7; to be approved, to stand accepted, Rom. 2:13; 3:20;, 28; et.al.;

The New Analytical Greek Lexicon, Wesley J. Perschbacher, Hendrickson Publishing, Peabody, Mass., 01962, Copyright 1990, "dikaiow", p. 102

In other words, you are telling me that James is saying:

Ye see then how that by works a man is made/rendered right/just, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man acts with justice, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is avouched to be good and true, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is vindicated, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is set forth as good and just, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is held as guiltless, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is accepted as righteous, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is held acquitted, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is cleared, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is approved, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is accepted, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is freed from the penalty and condemnation of the Law, and not by faith only.

That same word "dikaiow" is the exact same word Paul uses when he says:

"dikaiwqenteV oun ek pistewV eirhnhn ecomen proV ton qeon dia tou kuriou hmwn ihsou cristou," -Rom. 5:1 (GNT)

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:" -Rom. 5:1 (KJV)

It is the same Greek word Paul uses in Rom. 8:33 where he says:

"tiV egkalesei kata eklektwn qeou; qeoV o dikaiwn:" -Rom. 8:33 (GNT)

"Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth." -Rom. 8:33 (KJV)

So what is the great justifer?

Paul says it is God and faith.

James says it is works and not faith alone.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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dies-l

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Lets look at one thing more then I am going to not respond anymore to your posts.

"orate oti ex ergwn dikaioutai anqrwpoV kai ouk ek pistewV monon." -Jas. 2:24 (GNT)

Lets concentrate on this one word: "dikaioutai "

From The New Analytical Greek Lexicon:



The New Analytical Greek Lexicon, Wesley J. Perschbacher, Hendrickson Publishing, Peabody, Mass., 01962, Copyright 1990, "dikaiow", p. 102

In other words, you are telling me that James is saying:

Ye see then how that by works a man is made/rendered right/just, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man acts with justice, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is avouched to be good and true, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is vindicated, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is set forth as good and just, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is held as guiltless, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is accepted as righteous, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is held acquitted, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is cleared, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is approved, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is accepted, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is freed from the penalty and condemnation of the Law, and not by faith only.

That same word "dikaiow" is the exact same word Paul uses when he says:

"dikaiwqenteV oun ek pistewV eirhnhn ecomen proV ton qeon dia tou kuriou hmwn ihsou cristou," -Rom. 5:1 (GNT)

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:" -Rom. 5:1 (KJV)

It is the same Greek word Paul uses in Rom. 8:33 where he says:

"tiV egkalesei kata eklektwn qeou; qeoV o dikaiwn:" -Rom. 8:33 (GNT)

"Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth." -Rom. 8:33 (KJV)

So what is the great justifer?

Paul says it is God and faith.

James says it is works and not faith alone.

God Bless

Till all are one.

I understand what you are saying, and I have understood your difficulty all along. However, I am not as comfortable as you seem to be with excising those parts of Scripture that disagree with my theology. And, as I have said, if we disregard the book of James for the reasons that you state, there are many more passages, including some teachings of Jesus and Paul that would have to be disregarded as well. Frankly, I am not comfortable with that style of Biblical interpretation.

I do thank you for encouraging me to look deeper into the Scriptures to understand what they teach as to justificiation, but I am afraid we will have to agree to disagree about the specifics.
 
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Medic9903

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I know in James 2 it talks about Faith with out good deeds is dead, but i think Paul also said something simular, I might be mistaken. But hey, we are all human. However, here is the best answer I can give. You are SAVED (made pure, made righteous in the eyes of God) by the grace and mercy of God by placing your FAITH (Belief) in Jesus Christ, that He died for your sins. Now if you have truely done this and truely love God and Jesus, then you will do His work. Your actions and life style will shine through, you will be come the SALT (to use a good baptist word here) of the earth, make it better. This can only be done through action. So your actions/works JUSTIFY (Prove, validate, defend) your FAITH in God. So in other words you are saved by faith through grace from God, and your faith is justified (proven, validated, defended) by the way you live your life. Now to quote someone since that seems to be the popular thing.

"Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?"
"yes, Lord." Peter replied, "You know I love you."
"Then feed my lambs," Jesus told him.
Jesus repeated teh question: "Simon son of Joh, do you love me?"
"Yes Lord," Peter sid, "you know I love you."
"Then take care of my sheep," Jesus said.
A third time he asked him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?"
Peter was hurt that Jesus asked the question a third time. He said "Lord, you know everything. You know that I love you."
Jesus said, "Then feed my sheep."

Sound like works to me, that if you love God, then you will do these things. Jesus didn't say, Peter, do you love me, and Peter say yeah, and Jesus say ok, good enough, no, there was an if you do, then do this. Jesus also says in matthew 25

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."


So to sum it all up, true faith produces works. We are not saved by those works, however, our faith is justified by them.
 
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dies-l

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I know in James 2 it talks about Faith with out good deeds is dead, but i think Paul also said something simular, I might be mistaken. But hey, we are all human. However, here is the best answer I can give. You are SAVED (made pure, made righteous in the eyes of God) by the grace and mercy of God by placing your FAITH (Belief) in Jesus Christ, that He died for your sins. Now if you have truely done this and truely love God and Jesus, then you will do His work. Your actions and life style will shine through, you will be come the SALT (to use a good baptist word here) of the earth, make it better. This can only be done through action. So your actions/works JUSTIFY (Prove, validate, defend) your FAITH in God. So in other words you are saved by faith through grace from God, and your faith is justified (proven, validated, defended) by the way you live your life. Now to quote someone since that seems to be the popular thing.

"Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?"
"yes, Lord." Peter replied, "You know I love you."
"Then feed my lambs," Jesus told him.
Jesus repeated teh question: "Simon son of Joh, do you love me?"
"Yes Lord," Peter sid, "you know I love you."
"Then take care of my sheep," Jesus said.
A third time he asked him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?"
Peter was hurt that Jesus asked the question a third time. He said "Lord, you know everything. You know that I love you."
Jesus said, "Then feed my sheep."

Sound like works to me, that if you love God, then you will do these things. Jesus didn't say, Peter, do you love me, and Peter say yeah, and Jesus say ok, good enough, no, there was an if you do, then do this. Jesus also says in matthew 25

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."


So to sum it all up, true faith produces works. We are not saved by those works, however, our faith is justified by them.

Well said.
 
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DeaconDean

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So to sum it all up, true faith produces works. We are not saved by those works, however, our faith is justified by them.

but I am afraid we will have to agree to disagree about the specifics.

I disagree.

Studying just this topic, one cannot be declared "righteous" without being declared "justified". That is Paul's argument in Romans 4-8.

Twice, in Romans 3, Paul tells us that we are "justified" (dikaiow) by faith, without any works of the Law.

What is the Decalogue? Part of the Law.

What does it teach in the Decalogue?

Love the Lord with all your heart, mind, body, and soul, and to love your fellow man as you love yourself. (Jesus reiterated this in the Gospels).

These are things we are already expected to be doing.

Also, as a deacon, I have certain duties above and beyond what the ordinary Christian is expected to do. Likewise, pastors have duties above and beyond what I have to do.

This goes back to the lesson learned from Lk. 17.

"But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat? And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink? Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not. So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do."

When you have done those things which you are already expected to be doing in the first place, what have you done?

Nothing, as Jesus said, your "unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do."

You have done above and beyond what is already expected of you to be doing.

Second point, to whom do you seek justification from?

Is it in the sight of God, or of men?

And that is the point of James 2, especally 2:24.

And that was the point I was trying so hard to show from the illustration of Cain. If you do what is expected of you, will you not be accepted?

So to whom do you seek justification in the sight of? God or men?

Now I do agree that if you have true, genuine saving faith, it will produce works. "You will know them by their fruits." But here again, are you doing those things to seek justification in the sight of men of God? If your doing it just to justify yourself in the sight of men, then you have the wrong motivation. Your doing it for the wrong reasons.

Now I can give you a number of arguments against the book of James.

It is scarcely conceivable that the Lord's brother, who remained faithful to the Law, could have spoken of "the perfect law of freedom" (1:25) or that he could have given concrete expression to the Law in ethical commands (2:11 f) without mentioning even implicitly any cultic-ritual requirements.

Would the brother of the Lord really omit any reference to Jesus and his relationship to him, even though the author of JAmes emphatically presents himself in an authoritative role?

The debate in 2:14 ff with a misunderstood secondary stage of Pauline theology not only presupposes a considerable chronological distance from Paul - whereas James died in the year 62 - but also betrays complete ignorance of the polemical intent of Pauline theology, which lapse can scarcely be attributed to James, who as late as 55/56 met with Paul in Jerusalem (Acts 21:18 ff).

As the history of the canon shows (see 27.2), it was only very slowly and against opposition that James became recognized as the owrk of the Lord's brother, therefore as apostolic and canonical. Thus there does not seem to have been any old tradition that it originated with the brother of the Lord.

Warner Georg Kummel, Introduction to the New Testament, p. 412-413.

Nonetheless, there are weighty arguments against James the Lord's brother as author of the Letter of James. Central themes of strict Jewish Christian theology such as circumcision, Sabbath, Israel, purity laws and temply play no role in this letter. James is numbered among the few New Testament writings in which neither Israel nor the Jews are mentioned by name. The reception of Old Testament figures (cf. James 2.21-25; 5.10-11, 17-18) and also the references to the Law in an exclusively ethical context were general practices possible anywhere within early Christianity. In contrast to the Antioch incident, the problem of Gentile Christians/Jewish Christians does not appear at all in the Letter of James. The far-reaching differences in soterioogy (see below 7.1.9) indicate that the author of the Letter of James cannot be identical with James the Lord's brother, who according to Gal. 2.9 gave the right hand of fellowship to Paul and explicitly acknowledged his proclamation of the gospel among the Gentiles. In 1.1 the author designates himself douloV qeou kai kuriou Ihsou Xristou (servant of God and the Lord Jesus Christ), and in 3.1 indicates that he is an early Christian teacher. To be sure, a special position and dignity is associated with the term douloV (servant) in James 1.1., but it remains worthy of note that the author neither introduces himself as the Lord's brother nor claims the title stuloV (cf. Gal. 2.9). By including himself in the large group of early Christian teachers (cf. Acts 13.1; 1 Cor. 12.28-29), he disclaims the special authority of the Lord's brother or the three 'pillars' of the Jerusalem mother church, which were used in the Antioch conflict. In addition, James 3.1ff. presupposes an attack on the teaching office and a critical situation associated with it, which again does not correspond to the exclusive position of James the Lord's brother in the history of early Christianity.


If James the Lord's brother were the author of the Letter, then it is amazing that in James 5.10-11 it is Job and not Jesus who serves as an example of willingness to suffer. Also, the presupposed church situation and the polemic in James 2.14-26 point to a later time. The social conflicts within the community that become visible are paralleled especially in the writings of Luke, the Pastorals, and in Revelation. They are evidence of a fundamental social change that happened within the Christian community at the end of the first century. More and more wealthy people entered the church, the gulf between rich and poor church members became greater, and the debate between them grew sharper. In any case, the conflict concerning the unity of faith and works points to the post-Pauline period, as in the churches previously belonging to the Pauline mission field the unity of new being and new actions that Paul had considered self-evident came apart. The polemic of James does not fit Paul himself (see below 7.1.9), so that one must assume either that James the Lord's brother was completely ignorant of Pauline theology or that we are dealing with a debate in post-Pauline times. The deuteropaulines and 2 Peter 3.15-16 docuemnt the fact that these debates in fact took place on very different levels and with distinct emphases. If the Letter of James were to have been writen by James the Lord's brother, then it is remarkable that there is no reflection of the sharp criticism of Paul by James in the deuteropauline writings. Finally, the history of the canon speaks against James the Lord's brother as author of the Letter of James. Prior to 200 CE there is no solid evidence of the literary use of James. In the Muratorian Canon (ca. 200) James is missing, just as in Tertullian, and Eusebius (HE 2.23, 24b, 25) reports of James: 'This is the story of James. He is supposed to be the author of the first of the so-called "Catholic Letters," but let it be noted that its authenticity is doubted, since not many of the Elders have referred either to it or the so-called "Letter of Jude," which likewise has been counted among the 'Catholic Letters.' Still, we are aware that these two letters, like the others, have been read aloud in most of the churches.' The Letter of James began to be generally accepted only after 200 CE, cited for the first time as Scripture in Origen (Select Ps 30.6 [PG 12.1300]). The canonical status of James continued to be disputed, however, and did not attain general acceptance as a canonical document until very late. This would be an extraordinary development if James had really been written by James the brother of the Lord and this had been known in early Christianity.

Udo Schnelle, The History and Theology of the New Testament Writings, pp. 385-386

James shows knowledge of parenetical tradition that uses sayings ascribed to Jesus in the gospels: 5:12 (compare Matt 5:36-37); 1:5, 17 (compare Matt 7:7-12); 1:22 (compare Matt 7:24-27); 4:12 (compare Matt 7:1); 1:6 (compare Mark 11:23-24). There is, further, parenetical material also used in 1 Peter: Jas 1:2-3 (compare 1 Peter 1:6-7); Jas 4:1-2 (compare 1 Pet 2:11). It is not that James necessarily knows the gospels or 1 Peter, but rather that there is a Christian parenetical tradition into which sayings ascribed to Jesus in the gospels have been taken up, although not in the form of sayings of Jesus, and of which both James and 1 Peter make use. . .
Moral exhortation is very much the same throughout the various elements in a given culture. By the same token parenesis itself has little doctrinal concern, and James, a wholly parenetical work, has almost nothing distinctively Christian about it. Jesus Christ is mentioned only twice (1:1, 2:1), and both verses could be omitted without any harm to the flow of thought in the text. When the "coming of the Lord" is mentioned (5:7) there is nothing to denote the specifically Christian hope of the parousia; it could equally be a reference to the coming of the Lord God. "Faith" in this text is not specifically Christian faith but rather the acceptance of monotheism (2:19). These facts have led some scholars to suggest that the text is a Jewish homily lightly Christianized. But a number of features seem to speak of a Christian origin, especially the evidence of contacts with Christian parenetical tradition already noted and the discussion of "faith and works" in 2:14-26. The latter seems to presuppose an awareness of Paul's teaching in Galatians 3 and Romans 4.

Norman Perrin, The New Testament: An Introduction, p. 255

The content of James persupposes the theology taught by Paul. Especailly the "justification" part.

And that is why I'm so dead set against churches, pastors, denominations that teach that one must work for "justification."

It is wrong. You cannot "work": "to set forth as good and just; to hold as guiltless, to accept as righteous, to justify; to be held acquitted, to be cleared; to be approved, to stand accepted" in the sight of God.

And that is exactly what James teaches!

And that is why I reject the notion that one can and is "justified" by "works."

I do not stand accepted in the sight of God by my works. I do not seek to be justified in the sight of men.

I have already been declared "righteous" and "justified" in the sight of God when I gave my life, heart, mind and soul to God!

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DD2008

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Now I can give you a number of arguments against the book of James.

.


Are you saying that James isn't inspired scripture? :scratch: I've certainly never heard a Baptist especially a conservative Reformed one take that position before.

Here is what R.C. Sproul has to say about James 2:24:

"I’m convinced that we don’t really have a conflict here. What James is saying is this: If a person says he has faith, but he gives no outward evidence of that faith through righteous works, his faith will not justify him. Martin Luther, John Calvin, or John Knox would absolutely agree with James. We are not saved by a profession of faith or by a claim to faith. That faith has to be genuine before the merit of Christ will be imputed to anybody. You can’t just say you have faith. True faith will absolutely and necessarily yield the fruits of obedience and the works of righteousness. Luther was saying that those works don’t add to that person’s justification at the judgment seat of God. But they do justify his claim to faith before the eyes of man. James is saying, not that a man is justified before God by his works, but that his claim to faith is shown to be genuine as he demonstrates the evidence of that claim of faith through his works."

I agree with him.

Here is the link: http://www.ligonier.org/questions_answered.php?question_id=27


I also believe that the book of James is part of the body of inspired inerrant infallible scriputre.
 
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DeaconDean

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Are you saying that James isn't inspired scripture? :scratch: I've certainly never heard a Baptist especially a conservative Reformed one take that position before.

Here is what R.C. Sproul has to say about James 2:24:

"I’m convinced that we don’t really have a conflict here. What James is saying is this: If a person says he has faith, but he gives no outward evidence of that faith through righteous works, his faith will not justify him. Martin Luther, John Calvin, or John Knox would absolutely agree with James. We are not saved by a profession of faith or by a claim to faith. That faith has to be genuine before the merit of Christ will be imputed to anybody. You can’t just say you have faith. True faith will absolutely and necessarily yield the fruits of obedience and the works of righteousness. Luther was saying that those works don’t add to that person’s justification at the judgment seat of God. But they do justify his claim to faith before the eyes of man. James is saying, not that a man is justified before God by his works, but that his claim to faith is shown to be genuine as he demonstrates the evidence of that claim of faith through his works."

I agree with him.

Here is the link: http://www.ligonier.org/questions_answered.php?question_id=27


I also believe that the book of James is part of the body of inspired inerrant infallible scriputre.

What I say now, is what I have said from the beginning.

If James teaches that one can be "justified" by works (cf. Jas. 2:24) and not by faith as the Apostle Paul taught and Jesus, then I agree with what Martin Luther said.

Paul said:

"Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." -Rom. 4:3 (KJV)

Abraham believed, had faith, and it was imputed unto him as righteousness.

As shown earlier in the thread, when one is declared "righteous", one is also "justified."

What does James teach?

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" -Jas. 2:21 (KJV)

And further on, James teaches that "justification" comes by works. (cf. Jas 2:24)

The Westminister Catechism, 1643 teaches:

Q. 33. What is justification?
A. Justification is an act of God’s free grace,[91] wherein he pardoneth all our sins,[92] and accepteth us as righteous in His sight,[93] only for the righteousness of Christ imputed to us,[94] and received by faith alone.[95]

[91] Romans 3:24. Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
[92] Romans 4:6-8. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. 2 Corinthians 5:19. To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
[93] 2 Corinthians 5:21. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
[94] Romans 4:6, 11. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works.... And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: Romans 5:19. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
[95] Galatians 2:16. Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Philippians 3:9. And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.

Source

I only point this out because you recently subscribed to Presbyterianism.

So, are saying the Presbyterian Confession, of which you profess, is wrong, teaches wrong?

Justification also means:

Justification has to do solely with the legal side of salvation. It is a judicial term, a word of the law courts. It is the sentence of a judge upon a person who has been brought before him for judgment. It is that gracious act of God as Judge, in the high court of Heaven, by which He pronounces an elect and believing sinner to be freed from the penalty of the law, and fully restored unto the Divine favour. It is the declaration of God that the party arraigned is fully conformed to the law; justice exonerates him because justice has been satisfied. Thus, justification is that change of status whereby one, who being guilty before God, and therefore under the condemning sentence of His Law, and deserving of nought but an eternal banishment from His presence, is received into His favour and given a right unto all the blessings which Christ has, by His perfect satisfaction, purchased for His people.

The law does not pardon, for it knows no relaxation; but God pardons the transgressions of the law in His people by providing a satisfaction to the law adequate to their transgressions. The blood of Christ was sufficient to procure pardon (Eph. 1:7), but His righteousness is needed for justification (Rom. 5:19). Pardon takes away the filthy garments, but justification provides a change of raiment (Zech. 3:4). Pardon frees from death (2 Sam. 12:13), but righteousness imputed is called "justification of life" (Rom. 5:18). The one views the believer as completely sinful, the other as completely righteous. Pardon is the remission of punishment, justification is the declaration that no ground for the infliction of punishment exists. Forgiveness may be repeated unto seventy times seven, justification is once for all.

The justification of a believer is no other than his being admitted to participate in the reward merited by his Surety. Justification is nothing more or less than the righteousness of Christ being imputed to us: the negative blessing issuing therefrom is the remission of sins; the positive, a title to the heavenly inheritance.

Arthur W. Pink, The Doctrine of Justification, Chapter 2, Its Meaning.

Source

Charles Hodge teaches:

Condemnation is not the opposite either of pardon or of reformation. To condemn is to pronounce guilty or worthy of punishment. To justify is to declare not guilty, or that justice does not demand punishment, or that the person concerned cannot justly be condemned. When, therefore, the Apostle says, “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus” (Rom 8:1), he declares that they are absolved from guilt; that the penalty of the Law cannot justly be inflicted upon them. “Who,” he asks, “shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died” (8:33, 34). Against the elect in Christ no ground of condemnation can be presented. God pronounces them just, and therefore no one can pronounce them guilty.

Charles Hodge, Justification is a Forensic Act

Source

Are you going to tell me that James 2:24 teaches us that by works, one can work off the condemnation which the Law brings?

Charles Hodge also taught:

The obedience which the Law demands is called righteousness, and those who render that obedience are called righteous. To ascribe righteousness to anyone, or to pronounce him righteous, is the Scriptural meaning of the word “to justify.”

Paul therefore warns all those who look to works for justification that they are debtors to do the whole law (Gal 5:3). It knows no compromise; it cannot demand less than what is right, and perfect obedience is right. Therefore its only language is as before, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them” (Gal 3:10); and, “That the man which doeth those things shall live by them” (Rom 10:5). Every man, therefore, who expects justification by works must see to it, not that he is better than other men, or that he is very exact and does many things, or that he fasts twice in the week and gives tithes of all he possesses, but that he is sinless.

The fact that a man is forgiven implies that he is guilty, and the fact that he is guilty implies that his justification cannot rest upon his own character or conduct.

The Law knows nothing of anything but obedience as the ground of acceptance. If the Scriptures say we are accepted through faith, they thereby say that we are not accepted on the ground of obedience.

Charles Hodge, The Meaning of Justification

Source

Justification, in any sense, cannot come from any "work" that we do.

Paul teaches that it is God that justifies. Yet James teaches it is works that justifies a man.

What does justification mean:
"dikaiow" (Strongs Number 1344) to make or render right or just, mid. to act with justice, Rev. 22:11; to avouch to be good and true, to vindicate, Mt. 11:19; Lk. 7:29; et.al.; to set forth as good and just, Lk. 10:29; 16:15; et.al.; in N.T. to hold as guiltless, to accept as righteous, to justify, Rom. 3:26, 30; 4:5; 8:30, 33; et.al.; pass. to be held acquitted, to be cleared, Acts 13:39; Rom. 3:24; 6:7; to be approved, to stand accepted, Rom. 2:13; 3:20;, 28; et.al.;
The New Analytical Greek Lexicon, Wesley J. Perschbacher, Hendrickson Publishing, Peabody, Mass., 01962, Copyright 1990, "dikaiow", p. 102

What does James teach in 2:24?

Ye see then how that by works a man is made/rendered right/just, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man acts with justice, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is avouched to be good and true, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is vindicated, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is set forth as good and just, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is held as guiltless, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is accepted as righteous, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is held acquitted, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is cleared, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is approved, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is accepted, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is freed from the penalty and condemnation of the Law, and not by faith only.

Faith produces works, of that, I do not argue. "You will know them by their fruit".

But my acceptance unto God does not rely on "works" of which, James teaches.

Ye see then how that by works a man is accepted, and not by faith only.

But again, to whom are you seeking justification from?

Men, or God?

If your doing them to gain justification in the sight of men, then your motovation is wrong.

Bottom line, to be declared "righteous" is to be declared "justified" (Boyce). And in that sense, James is wrong!

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DD2008

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If your doing them to gain justification in the sight of men, then your motovation is wrong.


I agree with that statement. In the position brought up and stated by Dr. Sproul he said that one's faith will indeed certainly produce works. So one who has those works is justified by faith given in grace.

The justified person who has been justified by grace through faith is justified unto good works. He is now compelled by his God given faith to freely produce good works. So one can say that he is proven to be reborn in Christ just because he is a new creature who does new things that the old creature didn't want to do.

A coon dog hunts because he is a coon dog. A skunk stinks because he is a skunk. A reprobate rejects Christ because that rejection is natural to his will and he works for the advancement his own glory and his own agenda. He can even say he has faith in Christ but in reality he is simply posing as a Christian because it benefits him in some worldly way. A real Christian works to glorify God in the world because he is a Christian and at his core he simply wants too work for God because he loves his God and wants His name to be hallowed on earth and wants His will to be done on earth as it is in heaven.

We cannot judge the heart of anyone. That is also made clear in James. I firmly believe that the epistle of James addresses the individual member of the visible church, not of the invisible church that Paul so often addresed. With this body of scripture the member of the visible church can look deep within himself and discern why he does the things he does and if he has truely been given the grace to do so can respond to this call to mend his ways.
 
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DeaconDean

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He is now compelled by his God given faith to freely produce good works.

But that is not what James teaches.

Plain and simple.

James teaches man is justified "by works" and not faith. (cf. Jas. 2:24)

Works, according to James can do any of these:

Ye see then how that by works a man is made/rendered right/just, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man acts with justice, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is avouched to be good and true, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is vindicated, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is set forth as good and just, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is held as guiltless, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is accepted as righteous, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is held acquitted, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is cleared, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is approved, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is accepted, and not by faith only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is freed from the penalty and condemnation of the Law, and not by faith only.

Did Abraham's justification come by faith before any work as Paul teaches, or did Abrahmans justification came after works as James teaches?

And that is the heart of the matter.

Did Abraham seek "justification" in the sight of men, or God?

Not whether faith produces works, but whether "justification" is by faith as Paul taught, or by works as James teaches.

And it is very clear in this thread, that I am the exception to the rule proclaiming "justification" by faith.

You and everybody else are saying justification is as James teaches, "by works" (cf. Jas. 2:24).

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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Let me put this in another light.

Faith will produce works, of that, I do not argue against.

But the idea that "by works, a man can be:

make or render right or just; act with justice; avouch to be good and true, to vindicate; set forth as good and just; hold as guiltless, to accept as righteous, to justify; held acquitted, to be cleared; be approved, to stand accepted

And not by faith as James teaches, I'll stand against until Christ returns.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DD2008

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But that is not what James teaches.

Plain and simple.

James teaches man is justified "by works" and not faith. (cf. Jas. 2:24)

The root of all of our justification is by works and not by faith. Christ earned our justification for us by his righteous work. He was faithful even unto death.

So James is right only the free works of a man bring justification in the site of God and satisfy his law. So that is how men are justified with God.

However, :)

Christ freely paid the debt for his elect. Now those who are sinners and cannot be justified by their works are justified by HIS because GOd by grace has imputed the righteousness earned by Christ to those who he chose to give his son by the grace of his will thorugh quickening their souls that were dead in sin to life under the spotless cloak of Christ.

So justification can only be earned by one proving through their works that they are righteous like God.

Christ did that for us and God gave us to him as a gift and gave salvation to us as a gift because the lamb is worthy and satisfied the law of God completely so that when he said it is finished all sins of all of his elect were atoned for on that tremendous day.

Works, according to James can do any of these:

Did Abraham's justification come by faith before any work as Paul teaches, or did Abrahmans justification came after works as James teaches?

And that is the heart of the matter.

Not whether faith produces works, but whether "justification" is by faith as Paul taught, or by works as James teaches.


Abraham did not have the law of God given to Moses that points out sin. It is clear as Paul pointed out that where there is no law sins are not counted as such etc..

So Abraham's acts of faith in that he was going to freely sacrifice Issac his only God given son were counted to him as righteousnes and he was justified before God and that is why Christ spoke of the parable of Abraham and Lazarus. Abraham was in heaven at that time. Christ even said he rejoiced to see his day. He also said that God is the God of the living indicating Abraham was alive.

Abraham was justified pre-law because his faith born of the fear of the Lord who he audibly heard speak to him was counted to him as righteousness.

Then we see that there is also great forshadowing in this story. Issac asked his father where the sacrifice was at. Abraham replied "The Lord will provide". That mount is Moriah which is the temple mount. Not far from that exact point is Golgotha in which the God provided his only son as the atoneing sacrifice necessary to satisfy the law of God. And we see the veil of the temple on Mount Moriah is torn.

And it is very clear in this thread, that I am the exception to the rule proclaiming "justification" by faith.

You and everybody else are saying justification is as James teaches, "by works" (cf. Jas. 2:24).

Justification is by works. Christ worked that out for us on the cross. Now those who are justified by his work that is imputed to us by grace and received in faith will certainly do works that glorify God because their souls have been raised from their bondage to the death of sin and the will of self into life where they know they have a savior in Christ who through their thankfullness, joy, and pure love of God and their fellow man want to scream from the mountain tops that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

As Christ said, One does not hide their lamp under a bushel but lets it shine for all to see. This is in accordance with James who says faith without works is dead. If one says they have faith but hide that light by not doing the works that glorify God how can that be live saving faith?

Justification with God is by works. Christ worked out our salvation on the cross. We are now justified by his righteousness imputed to us by the grace of God and received by faith that manifests itself in good works to the glory of God.

:)
 
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DeaconDean

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Justification with God is by works. Christ worked out our salvation on the cross. We are now justified by his righteousness imputed to us by the grace of God and received by faith that manifests itself in good works to the glory of God.

:)

:eek:

I cannot believe what I just read!

You can achieve "justification" based on works. That is what you said:

Justification with God is by works

Do you realize that you denied what Calvinism teaches of which you carry the icon of?

Do you realize that you just denied what the Presbyterian Faith teaches of which you say you believe in?

Do you realize that you just denied what Baptists believe in?

Do you realize that you just denied what John Calvin, Martin Luther, and dozens of other taught?

What did John Calvin say?

In the same manner, a man will be said to be justified by works, if in his life there can be found a purity and holiness which merits an attestation of righteousness at the throne of God, or if by the perfection of his works he can answer and satisfy the divine justice. On the contrary, a man will be justified by faith when, excluded from the righteousness of works, he by faith lays hold of the righteousness of Christ, and clothed in it appears in the sight of God not as a sinner, but as righteous. Thus we simply interpret justification, as the acceptance with which God receives us into his favor as if we were righteous; and we say that this justification consists in the forgiveness of sins and the imputation of the righteousness of Christ,..Thus it is said, in Paul's discourse in the Acts, "Through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins; and by him all that believe are justified from all things from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses," (Acts 13: 38, 39.) You see that after remission of sins justification is set down by way of explanation; you see plainly that it is used for acquittal; you see how it cannot be obtained by the works of the law; you see that it is entirely through the interposition of Christ; you see that it is obtained by faith; you see, in fine, that satisfaction intervenes, since it is said that we are justified from our sins by Christ. Thus when the publican is said to have gone down to his house "justified," (Luke 18: 14,) it cannot be held that he obtained this justification by any merit of works.

Thus when Paul says, "to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness," he expounds justifying as making just. With the same rashness he perverts the whole of the fourth chapter to the Romans. He hesitates not to give a similar gloss to the passage which I lately quoted, "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth." Here it is plain that guilt and acquittal simply are considered, and that the Apostle's meaning depends on the antithesis. Therefore his futility is detected both in his argument and his quotations for support from Scripture. He is not a whit sounder in discussing the term righteousness, when it is said, that faith was imputed to Abraham for righteousness after he had embraced Christ, (who is the righteousness of Gad and God himself) and was distinguished by excellent virtues. Hence it appears that two things which are perfect are viciously converted by him into one which is corrupt. For the righteousness which is there mentioned pertains not to the whole course of life; or rather, the Spirit testifies, that though Abraham greatly excelled in virtue, and by long perseverance in it had made so much progress, the only way in which he pleased God was by receiving the grace which was offered by the promise, in faith. From this it follows, that, as Paul justly maintains, there is no room for works in justification.

I say, therefore, that faith, which is only the instrument for receiving justification,

Of Justification by Faith, John Calvin, Book 3:11, The Institutes of The Christian Religion, Beveridge edition, 1863.

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I just wanted you to know that you deny what John Calvin taught, even though you carry a Calvinist icon.

Kinda ironic, and funny.

But according to you:

The root of all of our justification is by works and not by faith...Justification is by works...Justification with God is by works.

You just denied the central tenants of Calvinism, Presbyterianism, and Baptists.

Justification is an act of God’s free grace, wherein he pardoneth all our sins, and accepteth us as righteous in His sight, only for the righteousness of Christ imputed to us, and received by faith alone.

Westminister Shorter Catechism, 1643, Of Justification (Presbyterianism)

Those whom God effectually calls, He also freely justifies; not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for any thing wrought in them, or done by them,

Westminister Confession of 1643, Of Justification (Presbyterianism)

Of Justification We believe that the great gospel blessing which Christ secures to such as believe in him is Justification; that Justification includes the pardon of sin, and the promise of eternal life on principles of righteousness; that it is bestowed, not in consideration of any works of righteousness which we have done, but solely through faith in the Redeemer's blood; by virtue of which faith his perfect righteousness is freely imputed to us of God; that it brings us into a state of most blessed peace and favor with God, and secures every other blessing needful for time and eternity.

The New Hampshire Confession of Faith of 1833, Of Justification (Baptists)

You just denied several tenants of Calvinism, Presbyterianism, and Baptist beliefs.

Works give evidence of faith, but works are not, never have been, never will be, the grounds of my (or anybody elses) justification or acceptance before or with God.

Feel free to recluse yourself from this discussion.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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mlqurgw

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:eek:

I cannot believe what I just read!

You can achieve "justification" based on works. That is what you said:



Do you realize that you denied what Calvinism teaches of which you carry the icon of?

Do you realize that you just denied what the Presbyterian Faith teaches of which you say you believe in?

Do you realize that you just denied what Baptists believe in?

Do you realize that you just denied what John Calvin, Martin Luther, and dozens of other taught?

What did John Calvin say?



Of Justification by Faith, John Calvin, Book 3:11, The Institutes of The Christian Religion, Beveridge edition, 1863.

Source

I just wanted you to know that you deny what John Calvin taught, even though you carry a Calvinist icon.

Kinda ironic, and funny.

But according to you:



You just denied the central tenants of Calvinism, Presbyterianism, and Baptists.



Westminister Shorter Catechism, 1643, Of Justification (Presbyterianism)



Westminister Confession of 1643, Of Justification (Presbyterianism)



The New Hampshire Confession of Faith of 1833, Of Justification (Baptists)

You just denied several tenants of Calvinism, Presbyterianism, and Baptist beliefs.

Works give evidence of faith, but works are not, never have been, never will be, the grounds of my (or anybody elses) justification or acceptance before or with God.

Feel free to recluse yourself from this discussion.

God Bless

Till all are one.
Dean, I think you missed his point. It is true that justification is by works just not our works. We are justified by the work of Christ.
 
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DD2008

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:eek:

I cannot believe what I just read!

You can achieve "justification" based on works. That is what you said:



Do you realize that you denied what Calvinism teaches of which you carry the icon of?

Do you realize that you just denied what the Presbyterian Faith teaches of which you say you believe in?

Do you realize that you just denied what Baptists believe in?

Do you realize that you just denied what John Calvin, Martin Luther, and dozens of other taught?

What did John Calvin say?



Of Justification by Faith, John Calvin, Book 3:11, The Institutes of The Christian Religion, Beveridge edition, 1863.

Source

I just wanted you to know that you deny what John Calvin taught, even though you carry a Calvinist icon.

Kinda ironic, and funny.

But according to you:



You just denied the central tenants of Calvinism, Presbyterianism, and Baptists.



Westminister Shorter Catechism, 1643, Of Justification (Presbyterianism)



Westminister Confession of 1643, Of Justification (Presbyterianism)



The New Hampshire Confession of Faith of 1833, Of Justification (Baptists)

You just denied several tenants of Calvinism, Presbyterianism, and Baptist beliefs.

Works give evidence of faith, but works are not, never have been, never will be, the grounds of my (or anybody elses) justification or acceptance before or with God.

Feel free to recluse yourself from this discussion.

God Bless

Till all are one.


Dean,

I have a suspicion you didn't read the post but may have stoped at the first line and then pegged all of the works sentences from there.

That post was one of the most Calvinistic posts I have ever written. :) It is in full agreement with Presbyterianism and Baptists who believe that we are saved by the righteousness of Christ.

Here is what I said in the post: We are justified by the righteous work of Christ that is imputed to us by grace and received through faith that is manifested in good works. :)

So the root cause of the entire salvific situation is indeed the work of Christ that satisfied the law of God in the first place.

Please re-read the post slowly and in context. I know it was very late when you read it you may have been in a hurry and freaked out on the first sentence. ^_^ I went to bed right after I wrote it.

I believe Calvin would be in full agreement with it. Not only do I think he would agree, I think he would be downright giddy about it.
 
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