a Second Rapture?

[rita727]

Will there be a second rapture after the Tribulation?



I heard this somewhere, but I don't know if it's biblically sound.

 

[zerosaiyaman]

This is actually an interesting question with three or four major interpritations. That one you put there is a less popular theory.

The three main ones are:
1. Rapture of Church before tribulation
2. Rapture of Church during the tribulation
3. Rapture of Church after the tribulation

1. This one is probably least likely. The basis that is sometimes used to try to support this view comes from Daniel 12:6-7 talking about the end of the world and the new heaven/earth "One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long will it be before these astonisthing things are fulfilled. The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, 'It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed."

Sometimes this is interpreted as meaning that the end can't start untill the church is removed. That's not necessarily the case, as an incompacitated church is just as broken as a nonexistant one; and incapacitation is a growing problem in the church these days around the world.

However, evidence against this is that it's said that there'll always be a remnant of God's people on earth, so this implies more heavily towards number 3, in that the rapture is at the end of the tribulation when Christ returns. Afterall, that's also when everyone will be caught up into the air with Christ; so really, I don't see evidence for anything except 3.

As for the idea of multiple raptures.. that's more of a "common" ground that is saught due to impasses. I don't see any evidence for that either, but I'm not well versed in this particular theological discussion, so maybe someone else will know more.

 

[jds1977]

However, evidence against this is that it's said that there'll always be a remnant of God's people on earth, so this implies more heavily towards number 3, in that the rapture is at the end of the tribulation when Christ returns. Afterall, that's also when everyone will be caught up into the air with Christ; so really, I don't see evidence for anything except 3.

So, we are raptured up to meet Christ in the air, only to turn around and come right back down w/ Him? (1 Thes. 4), (Rev. 19:14)

 

[Jerrysch]

Will there be a second rapture after the Tribulation?



I heard this somewhere, but I don't know if it's biblically sound.

No there will only be one. It will involve only beievers in Messiah, at some undefined time then later the tribulation will start with the signing of the seven year covenant between the many (Jews) and the antichrist.

 

[Jerrysch]

This is actually an interesting question with three or four major interpritations. That one you put there is a less popular theory.

The three main ones are:
1. Rapture of Church before tribulation
2. Rapture of Church during the tribulation
3. Rapture of Church after the tribulation

1. This one is probably least likely. The basis that is sometimes used to try to support this view comes from Daniel 12:6-7 talking about the end of the world and the new heaven/earth "

Actually if you allow the references to Israel to refer to Israel (?) the first one (before) is the only one that makes sence. In fact after Chapter 4 in the Book of Revelation the church is not mentioned.

 

[bigdAddyweAve423]

I think there could be still be 2. I am still studying this, but goe wiht me on this. In Rev. 7, there is a great multitude mentioned - this I believe is the Church. This is the first.

The Second is in Rev. 14:1-5, where the 144,000 Jewish Evangilists are Raptured to heaven before the start of the Great Tribulation.

So, I think there are 2 Raptures, The Church & then the 144,000 Jews that were sealed.

 

[AngCath]

Will there be a second rapture after the Tribulation?



I heard this somewhere, but I don't know if it's biblically sound.

no.
the first rapture is not theologically sound either.

 

[jsimms615]

No, I don't think it is biblically sound to believe in two raptures. I personally think there is going to be one rapture symbolically it is mentioned in Revelations 4:1-2. John is caught up into heaven where the church is after the church was mentioned on earth in chapters 1-3.

 

[Jerrysch]

no.
the first rapture is not theologically sound either.

Thankfully the Scripture indicates that there will be a rapture.

1Thes4:13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.


16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

1. The LORD comes with a shout
2. The archangel passes on that command
4. The trumpet of God sounds
5. The dead in Christ rise first. (the redeemed who have died)




17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

6. Those who are alive are caught you together with those who were dead.
7. We all remain with the Lord from that point on
18Therefore comfort one another with these words.


Consider yourself comforted, This does then indicate the series of events, many consider them to be before the tribulation, it is my belief that this is so, yet that is the tpoic of a different thread

 

[Jerrysch]

No, I don't think it is biblically sound to believe in two raptures. I personally think there is going to be one rapture symbolically it is mentioned in Revelations 4:1-2. John is caught up into heaven where the church is after the church was mentioned on earth in chapters 1-3.

Many consider that to be the rapture in the book of Revelation, and yet it is never clearly described, but it was spoken of by Paul and it was alluded to by Messiah Himself

John 14:2"In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for (B)I go to prepare a place for you.
3"If I go and prepare a place for you, (C)I will come again and receive you to Myself, that (D)where I am, there you may be also.

 

[Jerrysch]

I think there could be still be 2. I am still studying this, but goe wiht me on this. In Rev. 7, there is a great multitude mentioned - this I believe is the Church. This is the first.

The Second is in Rev. 14:1-5, where the 144,000 Jewish Evangilists are Raptured to heaven before the start of the Great Tribulation.

So, I think there are 2 Raptures, The Church & then the 144,000 Jews that were sealed.

Good you see the 144k as being Jewish that is very good, yet they do indeed have work to do, they are those who sperad the gospel druing the great tribulation as well as the two witnesses. Sadly no one is raptured once the great tribulation gets going. It is by way of the ministry of the 144k (and the two witnesses) all Israel is saved in the great tribulation.
Rom11:25For (AL)I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this (AM)mystery--so that you will not be (AN)wise in your own estimation--that a partial (AO)hardening has happened to Israel until the (AP)fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
"(AQ)THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
27"(AR)THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
(AS)WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

But don't get the idea that they will be saved as a result of them being Jews... no one is saved by way of thier heritage, they will be saved by faith like each and every other perosn who is saved was. By faith appart from works.

 

[bigdAddyweAve423]

Good you see the 144k as being Jewish that is very good, yet they do indeed have work to do, they are those who sperad the gospel druing the great tribulation as well as the two witnesses. Sadly no one is raptured once the great tribulation gets going. It is by way of the ministry of the 144k (and the two witnesses) all Israel is saved in the great tribulation.
Rom11:25For (AL)I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this (AM)mystery--so that you will not be (AN)wise in your own estimation--that a partial (AO)hardening has happened to Israel until the (AP)fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
"(AQ)THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
27"(AR)THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
(AS)WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

But don't get the idea that they will be saved as a result of them being Jews... no one is saved by way of thier heritage, they will be saved by faith like each and every other perosn who is saved was. By faith appart from works.

Again you are correct. All of Israel will be saved in the Tribulation. The 144,000 Jews are sealed by God to preach the Gospel of Jesus during the Tribulation. In Rev. 14:3, John talks about the song that only the 144,000 knew who were redeemed from the earth.

Since it says they were redeemed from the earth, this either tells me they are raptured or killed. But, I think, again I am still studying this, if they were killed/martyed it would say that.

I also would like to point out that alot of what happends in the end ties centers around, I believe, the The Lord's Feast & the Jewish Harvests of Barley & Wheat. Again, still studying these things. I do believe the 144,000 will be pulled from the earth.

Great Discusson!!! God Bless!!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Actually if you allow the references to Israel to refer to Israel (?) the first one (before) is the only one that makes sence. In fact after Chapter 4 in the Book of Revelation the church is not mentioned.

So why write letters to 7 churches if the church is not going to be in revelation?

(NKJV) Deuteronomy 4:11 "Then you came near and stood at the foot of the mountain, and the mountain burned with fire to the midst of heaven, with darkness, cloud, and thick darkness.

(NKJV) Revelation 8:8 Then the second angel sounded: And [something] like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood.

 

[Jerrysch]

Again you are correct. All of Israel will be saved in the Tribulation. The 144,000 Jews are sealed by God to preach the Gospel of Jesus during the Tribulation. In Rev. 14:3, John talks about the song that only the 144,000 knew who were redeemed from the earth.

Since it says they were redeemed from the earth, this either tells me they are raptured or killed. But, I think, again I am still studying this, if they were killed/martyed it would say that.

I also would like to point out that alot of what happends in the end ties centers around, I believe, the The Lord's Feast & the Jewish Harvests of Barley & Wheat. Again, still studying these things. I do believe the 144,000 will be pulled from the earth.

Great Discusson!!! God Bless!!

It is a wonderful discussion!!

One point I will suggest... the only people who walk into the Millenial kingdom in thier mortal flesh will be believers in Messiah. Be they Jews or of the nations no one who is not justified by faith will have any part in that kingdom.

Here is one for you... do a word study on the word "seal*" in the book of Revelation in regards to the 144k what do you find?

God bless you as you study His word.

 

[jeffweeder]

Jesus said to look for his coming ,so forget about this word rapture for the time being.

Paul builds on the promise given by Christ to return.

He reminds his readers that their brethren who had died, would be ressurected when Christ comes back.


13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and[12][Lit who ] remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout[13][Or cry of command ], with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and[14][Lit who ] remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

So we see the only rapture occuring after the lord descends, and the resserection and changing in the twinkling of an eye of those living.

The main focus is on the coming of the lord- so no rapture before the coming of the Lord.

What is the word of the lord?

29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the[18][Or heaven ] sky, and the powers of the[19][Or heaven ] heavens will be shaken.
30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect[20][Or chosen ones ] from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Peter is no different


8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

A New Heaven and Earth
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.


They are looking to the coming also-with no promise of a rapture.


JOHN

Iwill raise you the last day.
when he appears we will be like him-for we shall see him as he is.

We will not be taken away-precede those who have fallen asleep.

50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 

[Jerrysch]

Jesus said to look for his coming ,so forget about this word rapture for the time being.

The rapture and the Secound comming are not the same event, the rapture comes before the tribulation, the Secound comming comes at the end when the Jews confess thier national sin and then Messiah comes destroys the antichrist's army and then He makes toe victory accent up the Mount of Olives. This all based upon the Old(er) Testament prophets.
Isaiah 63

1 Who is this coming from Edom,
from Bozrah, with his garments stained crimson?
Who is this, robed in splendor,
striding forward in the greatness of his strength?
"It is I, speaking in righteousness,
mighty to save."


2 Why are your garments red,
like those of one treading the winepress?
3 "I have trodden the winepress alone;
from the nations no one was with me.
I trampled them in my anger
and trod them down in my wrath;
their blood spattered my garments,
and I stained all my clothing.
4 For the day of vengeance was in my heart,
and the year of my redemption has come.
5 I looked, but there was no one to help,
I was appalled that no one gave support;
so my own arm worked salvation for me,
and my own wrath sustained me. 6 I trampled the nations in my anger;
in my wrath I made them drunk
and poured their blood on the ground."

 

[bdarien]

This is actually an interesting question with three or four major interpritations. That one you put there is a less popular theory.

The three main ones are:
1. Rapture of Church before tribulation
2. Rapture of Church during the tribulation
3. Rapture of Church after the tribulation

1. This one is probably least likely. The basis that is sometimes used to try to support this view comes from Daniel 12:6-7 talking about the end of the world and the new heaven/earth "One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long will it be before these astonisthing things are fulfilled. The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, 'It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed."

Sometimes this is interpreted as meaning that the end can't start untill the church is removed. That's not necessarily the case, as an incompacitated church is just as broken as a nonexistant one; and incapacitation is a growing problem in the church these days around the world.

However, evidence against this is that it's said that there'll always be a remnant of God's people on earth, so this implies more heavily towards number 3, in that the rapture is at the end of the tribulation when Christ returns. Afterall, that's also when everyone will be caught up into the air with Christ; so really, I don't see evidence for anything except 3.

As for the idea of multiple raptures.. that's more of a "common" ground that is saught due to impasses. I don't see any evidence for that either, but I'm not well versed in this particular theological discussion, so maybe someone else will know more.

Did you ever consider that many who have heard the truth and believed themselves saved but truly aren't will realize that whatever they were basing their salvation on, (whether works or emotionalism or their parents and friends opinion of them as being saved), that many of these people will give their lives to God once they are faced with the reality of their lostness as the rapture they had heard about so obviously happens?

Noah also lived through a time when God brought His wrath down on the world and God kept His chosen ones protected. I truly do not understand why some want to believe that God would want His chosen ones to go thru the time of wrath that God has prepared for the world. That some of those who are left will be saved during this time is obvious and understandable and something to be hoped for, but of what use is it for God to pour out His wrath on His own church?

The multiple raptures idea comes from trying to defend the rapture at the end of the tribulation.​

Math 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Math 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

These verses describe what most call the rapture, the sudden and abrupt departure of all of God's elect who at that time dead or alive had chosen Christ as their savior meeting Christ in the air.​

1 Thes. 4:15-17
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
​

Now the problem is that making these verses which describe the rapture also support the rapture as being after the time or even during the time of tribulation causes problems with other things that Christ taught about.

​

Mathew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory
v 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
v. 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
v 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
v.41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
​

If the rapture happens after the tribulation then who was Christ seperating out?

If the rapture happens before the tribulation then these that are judged and seperated out are those who during the time of tribulation get saved and give their life to God. So God keeps His promise that He always will have a remnant of believers left in this world.
Throughout the bible the Day of Wrath was always meant for those who turn away from Him, not those who worship Him and follow Him, though they are also always affected too, as Noah was and Ezekial was as God told Him of the wrath that He was bringing upon Isreal while Ezekial was far away in Babylon. As we will be who are saved and in heaven with our Lord watching what happens to our world and our friends and families who have refused the salvation offered by the Lord.

If it were true that the rapture happened after the tribulation its impossible to imagine how these scriptures would make any sense or how this judgement would. That's one reason why sometimes people talk of two raptures. A second one to somehow account for all those people who according to post tribulationism who are believers and saved and yet somehow God missed in the first rapture.

I didn t say it made sense that some say there are two raptures just thats the main reason I have usually heard of two raptures.​

 

[jeffweeder]

If the rapture happens after the tribulation then who was Christ seperating out?

Matt 25
When the son of man comes he will seperate the sheep from the goats.


2thess 1
5 This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering.
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when[5][Lit at the revelation of the Lord Jesus ] the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.


Which day is this?


The day that we are glorified in him, and marvel at him----surely this is the "rapture" and when we set eyes on him.

If it were true that the rapture happened after the tribulation its impossible to imagine how these scriptures would make any sense or how this judgement would

you confuse the tribulation with the wrath of God.
We get tribulation, like Jesus said we would, but the gospel rejecting world will get the wrath of God.
We have been saved from the wrath of God, because the testimony was believed.

The Disiples got nothing but tribulation, and paid with their lives.

How much worse could tribulation get?
If they suffered the worst kind of trib, how could they preach that we were going to escape it.
The congregation back then would have lost faith - if anything.

But this wasnt preached. What was preached was that we press on toward the goal, looking for the coming of the lord-;

2pet 3
11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.


If the rapture was what they were looking too ,Peter would have said so.

 

[childofGod31]

We will be raptured after tribulation.

2TH 2:3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until ..the man of lawlessness is revealed...And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.

Paul is talking to the church here and saying that you cannot possibly miss that day, so don't worry. First you would have to see the man of lawlessness be revealed, and THEN that day (or our gathering) will come. Because if the sign of which Paul is talking about would to happen after the church would be raptured, how would this sign be helpful to these people and how would it prevent them from worrying that they missed "the day" if the sign were to occur AFTER they have been already raptured?

If you are giving somebody directions, it woudn't be helpful to them if you give them the street name that is PASSED the street they need...

7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

And then Paul is saying that something is holding antichrist back. And when HE is taken away, then all will happen. Who is HE? The church is not a "he".
I read that "it" is referring to the angelic army and "he" is referring to Michael (archangel). (based on Dan 12:1, Dan 10:21, Rev. 12:6, 13-14)

"Speaking of this one who will hinder the Antichrist, Paul said, "only he who now hindereth will continue to hinder until he be taken out of the way" (2 Th. 2:7). The word hindereth means "to hold down," and the phrase taken out of the way means "to step aside {get out of the way}." Therefore, the one who has the job of hindering the Antichrist will step aside; that is, he will no longer be a restraint between the Antichrist and those the Antichrist is persecuting.

So there was war in heaven. Michael and his army fought against the dragon. Up to now, Michael has hindered the satan's coming, but now the time came and satan will have full reign on earth for a time...and then the Lord will come.


"Rapture" means -MEETING the Lord in the air (based on the context). The Lord came from heaven DOWN to earth and MET his bride. And together, they went down to Jerusalem (His feet stood on the mount of Olives...)

I believe that "rapture" is simply a MEANS of getting all the Christians around the world together in one bunch.

If Christians were raptured before tribulation, (and since there is no "time" in heaven), they would have to come back to earth in one second (since a day is like a 1000 years, then 7 years on earth is like a second in heaven...)

 

[bigdAddyweAve423]

I guess the question then would be: Why take us out to bring us right back??

Doesn't make any sense. Also, we will say for the sake of argument that there is no rapture & only the Second coming of Christ. Who is the Great Multitude in Rev. 7??