A Scriptural perspective on faith and works

[boughtwithaprice]

We recall this teaching from the prophet Ezekiel

21 But if the wicked do penance for all his sins which he hath committed, and keep all my commandments, and do judgment, and justice, living he shall live, and shall not die. 22 I will not remember all his iniquities that he hath done: in his justice which he hath wrought, he shall live. 23 Is it my will that a sinner should die, saith the Lord God, and not that he should be converted from his ways, and live? 24 But if the just man turn himself away from his justice, and do iniquity according to all the abominations which the wicked man useth to work, shall he live? all his justices which he hath done, shall not be remembered: in the prevarication, by which he hath prevaricated, and in his sin, which he hath committed, in them he shall die. 25 And you have said: The way of the Lord is not right. Hear ye, therefore, O house of Israel: Is it my way that is not right, and are not rather your ways perverse?

26 For when the just turneth himself away from his justice, and committeth iniquity, he shall die therein: in the injustice that he hath wrought he shall die. 27 And when the wicked turneth himself away from his wickedness, which he hath wrought, and doeth judgment, and justice: he shall save his soul alive. 28 Because he considereth and turneth away himself from all his iniquities which he hath wrought, he shall surely live, and not die. 29 And the children of Israel say: The way of the Lord is not right. Are not my ways right, O house of Israel, and are not rather your ways perverse? 30 Therefore will I judge every man according to his ways, O house of Israel, saith the Lord God. Be converted, and do penance for all your iniquities: and iniquity shall not be your ruin.

As Catholics, we are often accused of earning our salvation by works, but that is not true.
We teach what the Gospel teaches in the words of Our Lord, if any man follow after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross and begin to follow in my footsteps.
Jesus Himself says to store up treasures in heaven for ourselves. We do that by good works in following His commands and mortifying our flesh.

Do those works save us? Not according to Ezekiel. The works are already performed, past tense. If we were an employee, a wage would be owed. We are not employees, yet followers. If we follow and obey, we look forward to our reward in heaven. Our flesh is weak, as we deny ourselves, God gives us the grace to build virtue.

We can destroy that relationship by turning from righteousness and committing mortal sin. God says He will remember our righteous works no more and we will die in our sins. The works we have done cannot save us.

Narrow is the way, straight is the gate that leads to life. We have blessed assurance as we continue in the path of righteousness. We continue that path by faith. To act sinfully would be to act contrary to faith. God redeems sinners, He does not redeem or wink at sin.


You may say, Ezekiel is Old Testament, but Hebrews reflects the same teaching

36 For patience is necessary for you; that, doing the will of God, you may receive the promise. 37 For yet a little and a very little while, and he that is to come, will come, and will not delay. 38 But my just man liveth by faith; but if he withdraw himself, he shall not please my soul. 39 But we are not the children of withdrawing unto perdition, but of faith to the saving of the soul.

By this reasoning, faith is doing and continuing in good works, which is Catholic teaching according to scripture. It is a breach of faith to cease in well doing and withdraw unto perdition.


Simple works of faith are prayer, fasting and almsgiving. These works can only be done in faith, as a natural man would view them as absurd. Do not let Satan keep you from doing good works of faith

 

[Paleouss]

Jesus Himself says to store up treasures in heaven for ourselves.

This might be part of the problem. The way you said it, the focus is on the treasures. The way Jesus said it within context is that there is the heart that is focused on earthly things (treasures) and the heart that is focused on spiritual things (treasures) ... seek first the kingdom of heaven and those treasures.

So my complaint about focusing on the treasures and the works first is that, well, it's wrongly focused. Fruitful works follow from the relationship with the Spirit. Want to do heavenly works as apposed to earthly works? Improve your relationship with God through study and prayer. This produces the fruits of the Spirit and from the fruits of the Spirit, fruitful heavenly works follow.

Want to feel empty and no better than you did before you volunteered at the pantry? Then focus on the works and how they might get you treasures in heaven. Want to have joy, peace, and longsuffering... devote more of yourself to study and prayer... and volunteer at the pantry also.

Peace to you brother.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

This might be part of the problem. The way you said it, the focus is on the treasures. The way Jesus said it within context is that there is the heart that is focused on earthly things (treasures) and the heart that is focused on spiritual things (treasures) ... seek first the kingdom of heaven and those treasures.

So my complaint about focusing on the treasures and the works first is that, well, it's wrongly focused. Fruitful works follow from the relationship with the Spirit. Want to do heavenly works as apposed to earthly works? Improve your relationship with God through study and prayer. This produces the fruits of the Spirit and from the fruits of the Spirit, fruitful heavenly works follow.

Want to feel empty and no better than you did before you volunteered at the pantry? Then focus on the works and how they might get you treasures in heaven. Want to have joy, peace, and longsuffering... devote more of yourself to study and prayer... and volunteer at the pantry also.

Peace to you brother.

It is Jesus teaching to store up treasures in heaven by works that are not seen of men

If we pray, pray in secret
If we fast, be well groomed and not gloomy, so others do not know we are fasting
If we give alms, do not let our right hand know what our left hand is doing

It is out of love for God that we do these things, not to be seen of men

We do works of true humility to be seen of men. Those involve loving our enemies. Not returning evil for evil. If we are slapped, turn the other cheek. If we are forced to work, work twice as hard. If we are robbed, give more. If we live as love for God, we do not try to protect ourselves, we deny ourselves

That is the first thing we do when we are called to life. If any man come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross and follow in my footsteps.

The Bible does not say just speak Lord, Lord and do nothing, because Jesus did it all. It says quite the opposite. Not everyone that says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but those that DO the will of my father.

When we follow Jesus, we do not do nothing. We follow His commands and do the works He taught us to do. A lot of those works will not feel good, but we do them out of faith, not feelings

You mentioned the fruits of the spirit such as love , joy, peace. We do not always get those. They are spiritual consolations, and they do not always come. We are called to do works for nothing in return, that is acting in faith and not like a hireling thst wants to be paid

A good book to read is the life of St Therese of Lisieux. She looked for little ways to honor God, like talking to those that bother her most and not holding grudges. She lived a life of self denial

 

[Eternally Grateful]

first off. we need to put the correct interpretation of the passage.

ez 18: 21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die

the hebrew word means to turn back or to return. penance is not found in the passage.

2nd faith and works is easy

1. We work for a wage, we work for a reward.
2. We receive a gift in grace. and this is a gift that can not be earned, hence it takes a trust that the one giving you the gift will honor his word.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

first off. we need to put the correct interpretation of the passage.

ez 18: 21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die

the hebrew word means to turn back or to return. penance is not found in the passage.

2nd faith and works is easy

1. We work for a wage, we work for a reward.
2. We receive a gift in grace. and this is a gift that can not be earned, hence it takes a trust that the one giving you the gift will honor his word.

Yes, He saves us though we have not earned it. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
What is the purpose of this salvation? He has saved us unto good works

As Paul has said, shall we sin more so that grace may more abound? God Forbid!!

If we are saved instantly and cannot do anything, what then is the purpose of life? Would it not be better to taste salvation then instantly die to be with the Lord? If God keeps us here, is it to torment us in this fallen world? Why are we here?

Jesus does not speak of instant salvation and say we can do nothing further. He calls us to follow Him. Following requires action, aka works. If we say we love Jesus and then do nothing, life seems pointless. What could we do but sin more, nothing we do is any good?

No, I don’t buy what you are selling. Salvation is a journey, a journey of following Jesus. A life of action, learned action, not sloth. Jesus says if any man come after me, let him deny his very self, take up his cross and begin to follow in my footsteps.

The more we follow, deny ourselves and learn to comply our lives to the commands of Jesus, the deeper our relationship with Him becomes. As He says, if you love me keep my commandments. Keeping commandments requires works. The deeper the relationship, the more we know Him. We know Him through obedience

To those that claim to know Jesus but do nothing, He Himself says, I never knew you. The path of life is for those that DO the will of the Father, not just dream about it

 

[SouthWestConvert]

What is the purpose of this salvation?

No, not works. The purpose is love. To enjoy a love that is beyond earthly comprehension.

As Paul has said, shall we sin more so that grace may more abound? God Forbid!!

God Forbid because we love Him so much. Why then would we seek to continue in sin against one who so lovingly died for us. Why would we now grieve him thus?

If God keeps us here, is it to torment us in this fallen world? Why are we here?

We continue here to be taught by him, to grow in faith towards him, to proclaim the wondrous things we have received to others. And yes, through all this, in dear, precious, pure love, to work and follow in His example whilst on earth of being unspotted from the world. And thus, to be such an example to others around. That they may see what we do, that they may wonder where this well of living water cometh from. That they may seek the same.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

No, not works. The purpose is love. To enjoy a love that is beyond earthly comprehension.

God Forbid because we love Him so much. Why then would we seek to continue in sin against one who so lovingly died for us. Why would we now grieve him thus?


We continue here to be taught by him, to grow in faith towards him, to proclaim the wondrous things we have received to others. And yes, through all this, in dear, precious, pure love, to work and follow in His example whilst on earth of being unspotted from the world. And thus, to be such an example to others around. That they may see what we do, that they may wonder where this well of living water cometh from. That they may seek the same.

Yes and love is a work, it is not idle, it takes an act of will. The two commandments of love are to Love God with our whole mind, whole heart and whole soul, then secondarily love our neighbor as ourselves. If we do not love God, we cannot love our neighbor as we ought.

It is not that others look at our life and want to be like us. Our lives should confirm the call of God that is already on their hearts. It is Him they need to follow, not us.

If we say we love God, yet do not His commandments then the word of God is blasphemed among the gentiles because of us.
We are saved unto good works, not into an intellectual trap that says works are no good

 

[SouthWestConvert]

I do not disagree with you, but be not so hasty. Stay a while and meditate upon Him who your soul loveth. The works will come and rightly so, but love doth have the pre-eminence.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

I do not disagree with you, but be not so hasty. Stay a while and meditate upon Him who your soul loveth. The works will come and rightly so, but love doth have the pre-eminence.

I agree with your caution against hastiness. We have been confused what is meant by works. We are in a spiritual battle, which is fought in our minds and with our will.

Meditation is a delightful work, as prayer is essential to those that will be saved. How can we be saved if we say we do not pray? If we are indeed saved by His blood, should we not talk to Him? Not to be seen by others as pious, but alone in our room in private. Read His word, think on His commands, ask God what we should do, and wait for an answer. The word of God is not read presumptuously.

Too often we think of good works as grandiose gestures. “Look at my power, I have helped all these people, what have you done? Do you lead anyone to the Lord?” Those are indeed good works and it is a joy to speak with someone and see them converted to the truth, but we need to realize it is not by our power that those works get done. If we think that it is us that do them, we can easily be corrupted in thought

The works that I speak of are the works that Jesus tells us to do. Deny ourselves and follow in His footsteps. A newly born again Christian should start with basic works that build virtue. The most simple are prayer, fasting and alms giving

I really like that you say to meditate on Him whom your soul loveth. That is the purpose of prayer and needs to be done by all Christians

Prayer focuses our mind on God. Prayer takes our time and our heart should take delight in it. The best way is to set aside time dedicated to God and build a disciplined prayer life.

Fasting takes our mind off of our carnal desires and increases our closeness to God. In the 21st century in our sex saturated society, we must earnestly pursue chastity to get close to God. Our carnal desires when disordered separate us from the love of God and put us in the love of self.

Almsgiving detaches our hearts from material things. Our Church does not teach tithing, because that thinking leads souls to think 90% belongs to us and only 10% is God’s. In the new covenant we give 100% of ourselves to God. We give to the Church, but also our neighbors in need and share what we have with those that have not, voluntarily, not of compulsion, we are not communists. As we practice, it gets easier to give more

The word of God says, if we are faithful in little things, He will give us greater works to do. I really like your advice to meditate as a first work

Peace be with you

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes, He saves us though we have not earned it. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
What is the purpose of this salvation? He has saved us unto good works

well first he had to save us from the penalty of sin.. or it would not matter how many good works we would do. we would still be lost

As Paul has said, shall we sin more so that grace may more abound? God Forbid!!

If we are saved instantly and cannot do anything, what then is the purpose of life? Would it not be better to taste salvation then instantly die to be with the Lord? If God keeps us here, is it to torment us in this fallen world? Why are we here?

To make disciples of other nations. to spread the word. to be a light to the world. to be a witness of Gods love.

Jesus does not speak of instant salvation and say we can do nothing further. He calls us to follow Him. Following requires action, aka works. If we say we love Jesus and then do nothing, life seems pointless. What could we do but sin more, nothing we do is any good?

Who is advocating being saved and doing nothing?

No, I don’t buy what you are selling. Salvation is a journey, a journey of following Jesus. A life of action, learned action, not sloth. Jesus says if any man come after me, let him deny his very self, take up his cross and begin to follow in my footsteps.

I do not buy what your saying if I just interpret what you say here. that we are saved, but we are not saved, we are only saved in the end by what we do in this lifetime.

That is salvation by works.

works and grace can not mix, salvation is by one or the other

works are a byproduct of grace and faith. not an addition to,

The more we follow, deny ourselves and learn to comply our lives to the commands of Jesus, the deeper our relationship with Him becomes. As He says, if you love me keep my commandments. Keeping commandments requires works. The deeper the relationship, the more we know Him. We know Him through obedience

Again, we work because we are saved, not to get saved or stay saved, I hope you are not saying otherwise.

To those that claim to know Jesus but do nothing, He Himself says, I never knew you. The path of life is for those that DO the will of the Father, not just dream about it

Yes, they were never saved. As John said, whoever lives in sin has never met God. Whoever is born of God can not live in sin

 

[boughtwithaprice]

well first he had to save us from the penalty of sin.. or it would not matter how many good works we would do. we would still be lost

To make disciples of other nations. to spread the word. to be a light to the world. to be a witness of Gods love.

Who is advocating being saved and doing nothing?

I do not buy what your saying if I just interpret what you say here. that we are saved, but we are not saved, we are only saved in the end by what we do in this lifetime.

That is salvation by works.

works and grace can not mix, salvation is by one or the other

works are a byproduct of grace and faith. not an addition to,

Again, we work because we are saved, not to get saved or stay saved, I hope you are not saying otherwise.

Yes, they were never saved. As John said, whoever lives in sin has never met God. Whoever is born of God can not live in sin

Jesus does not speak of once saved always saved. Yes, there is an elect that will never fall from His hands, but we are not to presume to know who they are.
Scripture says to strive to make your calling and election sure. The Christian life is hard. Narrow is the way, straight is the gate that leads to life.
We do not know that we are saved until we stand before God and He tells us, well done thou good and faithful servant, enter into the joy of the Lord.

Until that time, to claim that we are saved is presumption. Unless one has been told by special revelation from God Himself, we do not presume the judgement of God.
We have confidence toward God, when we obey Him and put His words into practice. He has given us specific commands above the Ten Commandments. You should read Matthew 5-7.

No where does it say that people that just believe and tell other people that they believe are automatically saved. Faith is obeying God, because we know He tells the truth, not just believing He exists.
The demons believe God exists and they tremble. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

We can be saved if we put away the deeds of the flesh and take up our cross. That is an act of faith and it involves our will. We are not saved by works, yet we cannot be saved without them either. Do you really think that the Gospel is just believe in Jesus and tell others? Don’t worry about that self denial stuff, Jesus loves you and once you just believe in Him, you go to heaven?
Really? Scripture does not say that.

Paul strove for his salvation. He did not rest on mere belief. He said because he did not want to have preached to others and he himself be found unworthy. He considers himself to be chief among sinners. He did not go around saying I am saved, I don’t worry about nothing. Even Jesus condemns that sentiment when He says to the Church in Laodicea, you are lukewarm, you say you are rich and have need of nothing, but don’t realize that you are miserable, blind, poor and naked, I will vomit you out of my mouth

While we are alive, we are in a spiritual battle, if we do not fight, we do not win the prize. There is no excuse that it is too hard and no one can do it because we are not saved by works. Jesus says that if you need anything then just ask. Do you want holiness without which no one will see the Lord? then ask for it. Do you want to be perfect as He is perfect? Then ask for it. Those that seek, find. Those that ask will receive. Those that knock, the door will be opened to them

Do not wait for heaven to receive those gifts. Now is the time, today is the day of salvation

I don’t know what you have been told. We cannot be slothful and say Jesus did it all. If we do not ask we will not receive. Do not seek? We will not find. Scripture is clear. If you have people telling you otherwise, I advise finding another group. I pray that you ask, seek, and knock, rather than presume that you are rich and have need of nothing
Instead buy gold tried in the fire

God is faithful and true. He answers those that ask, seek and knock, but turns away the rich empty handed. Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of God. Scripture makes no mention of rewards for the presumptuous rich.

If this makes you afraid, rejoice, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom

 

[Soyeong]

We recall this teaching from the prophet Ezekiel

21 But if the wicked do penance for all his sins which he hath committed, and keep all my commandments, and do judgment, and justice, living he shall live, and shall not die. 22 I will not remember all his iniquities that he hath done: in his justice which he hath wrought, he shall live. 23 Is it my will that a sinner should die, saith the Lord God, and not that he should be converted from his ways, and live? 24 But if the just man turn himself away from his justice, and do iniquity according to all the abominations which the wicked man useth to work, shall he live? all his justices which he hath done, shall not be remembered: in the prevarication, by which he hath prevaricated, and in his sin, which he hath committed, in them he shall die. 25 And you have said: The way of the Lord is not right. Hear ye, therefore, O house of Israel: Is it my way that is not right, and are not rather your ways perverse?

26 For when the just turneth himself away from his justice, and committeth iniquity, he shall die therein: in the injustice that he hath wrought he shall die. 27 And when the wicked turneth himself away from his wickedness, which he hath wrought, and doeth judgment, and justice: he shall save his soul alive. 28 Because he considereth and turneth away himself from all his iniquities which he hath wrought, he shall surely live, and not die. 29 And the children of Israel say: The way of the Lord is not right. Are not my ways right, O house of Israel, and are not rather your ways perverse? 30 Therefore will I judge every man according to his ways, O house of Israel, saith the Lord God. Be converted, and do penance for all your iniquities: and iniquity shall not be your ruin.

As Catholics, we are often accused of earning our salvation by works, but that is not true.
We teach what the Gospel teaches in the words of Our Lord, if any man follow after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross and begin to follow in my footsteps.
Jesus Himself says to store up treasures in heaven for ourselves. We do that by good works in following His commands and mortifying our flesh.

Do those works save us? Not according to Ezekiel. The works are already performed, past tense. If we were an employee, a wage would be owed. We are not employees, yet followers. If we follow and obey, we look forward to our reward in heaven. Our flesh is weak, as we deny ourselves, God gives us the grace to build virtue.

We can destroy that relationship by turning from righteousness and committing mortal sin. God says He will remember our righteous works no more and we will die in our sins. The works we have done cannot save us.

Narrow is the way, straight is the gate that leads to life. We have blessed assurance as we continue in the path of righteousness. We continue that path by faith. To act sinfully would be to act contrary to faith. God redeems sinners, He does not redeem or wink at sin.


You may say, Ezekiel is Old Testament, but Hebrews reflects the same teaching

​

​ 36 For patience is necessary for you; that, doing the will of God, you may receive the promise. 37 For yet a little and a very little while, and he that is to come, will come, and will not delay. 38 But my just man liveth by faith; but if he withdraw himself, he shall not please my soul. 39 But we are not the children of withdrawing unto perdition, but of faith to the saving of the soul.

By this reasoning, faith is doing and continuing in good works, which is Catholic teaching according to scripture. It is a breach of faith to cease in well doing and withdraw unto perdition.


Simple works of faith are prayer, fasting and almsgiving. These works can only be done in faith, as a natural man would view them as absurd. Do not let Satan keep you from doing good works of faith

There can be any number of reasons for doing works other than in order to earn our salvation, so the position that our salvation requires us to choose to be a doer of good works (which the Bible affirms) is not the position that the Bible requires us to have first done good works in order to earn our salvation as the result (which the Bible denies). In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so doing those works has nothing to do with trying to earn our salvation as the result, but rather God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of those works is part of His gift of salvation. In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from from him because he never knew them, so our salvation clearly requires us to be workers of lawfulness, however, not in order to earn it, but because that is the way to know Jesus, which is eternal life (John 17:3).

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Jesus does not speak of once saved always saved.

eternal life
Never die
Passed from death to life
Pass from judgement to life.

This is what Jesus promised.

Now you either trust him, or you do not.

Yes, there is an elect that will never fall from His hands, but we are not to presume to know who they are.

lol. I know who they are.. Those who are washed in the blood.

Scripture says to strive to make your calling and election sure. The Christian life is hard. Narrow is the way, straight is the gate that leads to life.

Yes. Strive to make sure your faith is real. and not fake..

We do not know that we are saved until we stand before God and He tells us, well done thou good and faithful servant, enter into the joy of the Lord.

Thats funny, John said he wrote us a whole book saying he wrote it so we can KNOW we HAVE eternal life.

I will trust John.. ok??

Until that time, to claim that we are saved is presumption. Unless one has been told by special revelation from God Himself, we do not presume the judgement of God.

I have been saved.

You should not presume I am not saved.

We have confidence toward God, when we obey Him and put His words into practice. He has given us specific commands above the Ten Commandments. You should read Matthew 5-7.

If you keep the whole law. yet stumble in one point, your guilty of all.

You should read James 2: 10

No where does it say that people that just believe and tell other people that they believe are automatically saved.

I would never tell a person this.

Faith is obeying God, because we know He tells the truth, not just believing He exists.

No. Faith is trusting God.

When you trust God. you tend to also do what he says

The demons believe God exists and they tremble. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

They believe. they do nto have faith

We can be saved if we put away the deeds of the flesh and take up our cross.

Thats works.

That is an act of faith and it involves our will. We are not saved by works, yet we cannot be saved without them either.

Total contradiction.

You can not say you are saved by works. then claim you must be saved by works.. (which is prety much what you just did)

Do you really think that the Gospel is just believe in Jesus and tell others?

No. Just because you believe Jesus lived does nto save you.

You must repent and trust God.. Abraham had assurance God would do what he said. If you do not have assurance, You have no faith.

Don’t worry about that self denial stuff, Jesus loves you and once you just believe in Him, you go to heaven?

Never said that

Really? Scripture does not say that.

Never said it did. You are becoming a broken record.

Paul strove for his salvation.

No, Paul said to be absent from the body was to be present with the lord. Paul was assured of his salvation. he strove to be a workman and was afraid he would do something that would take away his ability to teach

He did not rest on mere belief.

Nor do I

He said because he did not want to have preached to others and he himself be found unworthy.

Unworthy to be a teacher.

Paul knew he was unworthy, he called himself the chief of sinners.

He considers himself to be chief among sinners.

Meaning he considered himself unworthy. do you consider yourself unworthy of Gods grace? I do..

He did not go around saying I am saved, I don’t worry about nothing. Even Jesus condemns that sentiment when He says to the Church in Laodicea, you are lukewarm, you say you are rich and have need of nothing, but don’t realize that you are miserable, blind, poor and naked, I will vomit you out of my mouth

While we are alive, we are in a spiritual battle, if we do not fight, we do not win the prize. There is no excuse that it is too hard and no one can do it because we are not saved by works. Jesus says that if you need anything then just ask. Do you want holiness without which no one will see the Lord? then ask for it. Do you want to be perfect as He is perfect? Then ask for it. Those that seek, find. Those that ask will receive. Those that knock, the door will be opened to them

Do not wait for heaven to receive those gifts. Now is the time, today is the day of salvation

I don’t know what you have been told. We cannot be slothful and say Jesus did it all. If we do not ask we will not receive. Do not seek? We will not find. Scripture is clear. If you have people telling you otherwise, I advise finding another group. I pray that you ask, seek, and knock, rather than presume that you are rich and have need of nothing
Instead buy gold tried in the fire

God is faithful and true. He answers those that ask, seek and knock, but turns away the rich empty handed. Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of God. Scripture makes no mention of rewards for the presumptuous rich.

If this makes you afraid, rejoice, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom

hey, don't let me stop you from pumping your chest. But I will pray you will become like the tax collector.

I am not afraid. I have not been given a spirit of fear. I have been given a sound mind. I can go to my abba father with joy, because I know I am his, I have entered his rest.

However. i do respect (fear) him.. and not in myself or what I do. That my friend is wisdom

 

[boughtwithaprice]

There can be any number of reasons for doing works other than in order to earn our salvation, so the position that our salvation requires us to choose to be a doer of good works (which the Bible affirms) is not the position that the Bible requires us to have first done good works in order to earn our salvation as the result (which the Bible denies). In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so doing those works has nothing to do with trying to earn our salvation as the result, but rather God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of those works is part of His gift of salvation. In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from from him because he never knew them, so our salvation clearly requires us to be workers of lawfulness, however, not in order to earn it, but because that is the way to know Jesus, which is eternal life (John 17:3).

Yes, I see your reasoning and I see no conflict with Catholic teaching. We are accused that we want to earn salvation by good works. This is not true. Works do not result in salvation, rather they are a sign of faith in our Lord and keep us on the path to life.
The spiritual battle is in the mind and how we think. Who do we love? Our own flesh? The things of the world? Do we want to hold onto the world and Christ at the same time?

We have free will and we must choose. Scripture says love not the world neither the things in the world. Whoever is a friend of the world is an enemy of God.

There is an elect and God knows those that are His, but we don’t. The way we make our calling and election sure is to put our faith into practice.
God says love our enemies? Do we do that? God says pray in secret? Do we do that? He told us to deny ourselves and take up our cross. Do we do that? Do we know how?

If we confess with our mouth, the Lord Jesus and believe in our hearts that He rose from the dead, we will be saved. We think oh that’s easy, but we make to mistake of believing in our head that He rose from the dead.

It is our heart where we must believe. The heart is where we love and love inspires us to action. We cannot just say that we love Jesus, we actually have to love Jesus. We do that by obedience to His commandments.

I have been in groups where they say it is impossible to obey the commandments, just come on Sunday, pay your tithe, sing songs and tell everyone else how great they are even though they say they can’t stop sinning. Oh and make sure you bring others with you so that they can pay tithes too. A group like that is not conducive to spiritual growth.
We are a communion of saints, the body of Christ. We are to inspire each other to the heights of self denial, as commanded by Our Lord.

We study the history of the Church, as Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever. We look for consistency in doctrine. Truth is eternal. It becomes more clear as we study God, but it never contradicts what it has taught before. We change, God does not. We change by the fire of His love

Works? Yes we do them, as scripture says he that will not work, shall not eat. We eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man, so we work, but it is not of ourselves. We say with Paul, it is no longer I that liveth, but Christ liveth in me

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes, I see your reasoning and I see no conflict with Catholic teaching. We are accused that we want to earn salvation by good works. This is not true. Works do not result in salvation, rather they are a sign of faith in our Lord and keep us on the path to life.
The spiritual battle is in the mind and how we think. Who do we love? Our own flesh? The things of the world? Do we want to hold onto the world and Christ at the same time?

We have free will and we must choose. Scripture says love not the world neither the things in the world. Whoever is a friend of the world is an enemy of God.

There is an elect and God knows those that are His, but we don’t. The way we make our calling and election sure is to put our faith into practice.
God says love our enemies? Do we do that? God says pray in secret? Do we do that? He told us to deny ourselves and take up our cross. Do we do that? Do we know how?

If we confess with our mouth, the Lord Jesus and believe in our hearts that He rose from the dead, we will be saved. We think oh that’s easy, but we make to mistake of believing in our head that He rose from the dead.

It is our heart where we must believe. The heart is where we love and love inspires us to action. We cannot just say that we love Jesus, we actually have to love Jesus. We do that by obedience to His commandments.

I have been in groups where they say it is impossible to obey the commandments, just come on Sunday, pay your tithe, sing songs and tell everyone else how great they are even though they say they can’t stop sinning. Oh and make sure you bring others with you so that they can pay tithes too. A group like that is not conducive to spiritual growth.
We are a communion of saints, the body of Christ. We are to inspire each other to the heights of self denial, as commanded by Our Lord.

We study the history of the Church, as Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever. We look for consistency in doctrine. Truth is eternal. It becomes more clear as we study God, but it never contradicts what it has taught before. We change, God does not. We change by the fire of His love

Works? Yes we do them, as scripture says he that will not work, shall not eat. We eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man, so we work, but it is not of ourselves. We say with Paul, it is no longer I that liveth, but Christ liveth in me

So what are the purpose of the sacraments? What does eating the body and blood accomplish? What does baptism accomplish? Etc etc?

 

[Soyeong]

Yes, I see your reasoning and I see no conflict with Catholic teaching. We are accused that we want to earn salvation by good works. This is not true. Works do not result in salvation, rather they are a sign of faith in our Lord and keep us on the path to life.
The spiritual battle is in the mind and how we think. Who do we love? Our own flesh? The things of the world? Do we want to hold onto the world and Christ at the same time?

We have free will and we must choose. Scripture says love not the world neither the things in the world. Whoever is a friend of the world is an enemy of God.

There is an elect and God knows those that are His, but we don’t. The way we make our calling and election sure is to put our faith into practice.
God says love our enemies? Do we do that? God says pray in secret? Do we do that? He told us to deny ourselves and take up our cross. Do we do that? Do we know how?

If we confess with our mouth, the Lord Jesus and believe in our hearts that He rose from the dead, we will be saved. We think oh that’s easy, but we make to mistake of believing in our head that He rose from the dead.

It is our heart where we must believe. The heart is where we love and love inspires us to action. We cannot just say that we love Jesus, we actually have to love Jesus. We do that by obedience to His commandments.

I have been in groups where they say it is impossible to obey the commandments, just come on Sunday, pay your tithe, sing songs and tell everyone else how great they are even though they say they can’t stop sinning. Oh and make sure you bring others with you so that they can pay tithes too. A group like that is not conducive to spiritual growth.
We are a communion of saints, the body of Christ. We are to inspire each other to the heights of self denial, as commanded by Our Lord.

We study the history of the Church, as Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever. We look for consistency in doctrine. Truth is eternal. It becomes more clear as we study God, but it never contradicts what it has taught before. We change, God does not. We change by the fire of His love

Works? Yes we do them, as scripture says he that will not work, shall not eat. We eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man, so we work, but it is not of ourselves. We say with Paul, it is no longer I that liveth, but Christ liveth in me

We can take actions that express our faith, such as with James 2:18 saying that he would show his faith by his works, so everyone who is a doer of the same works as James has the same faith as him and the significance of our works is not that it is part of something that we are required to have done first in order to earn our salvation as the result, but rather the significance is that it is the way to have faith, and it is by that faith alone that we are being saved. Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so Jesus graciously teaching us to be a doer of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it.

The way to love God is by being in His likeness through being a doer of His character traits, such as the way to love justice is by being a doer of justice, the way to love holiness is by being a doer of God's instructions for how to be holy as He is holy, and so forth. In other words, everything that God has commanded was specifically commanded in order to teach us how to love a different aspect of His character, which is why the Bible repeatedly says that the way to love God is by obeying His commandments.

In Romans 10:5-10, Paul referenced Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to our faith proclaiming that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey, that obedience to it brings life and a blessing, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way that God raised Jesus from the dead for salvation. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what Jesus spent his ministry teaching by word and by example and in what he accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20).

 

[boughtwithaprice]

So what are the purpose of the sacraments? What does eating the body and blood accomplish? What does baptism accomplish? Etc etc?

If those are legitimate questions, I would be happy to answer you. The short answer is that it is obedience to Jesus’ commands. Would you say obedience is unfruitful?

Our Lord says Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Again He says, This IS my body. Do this in remembrance of me. When we take the Eucharist, there is a direct line of Apostolic succession back to when Jesus spoke those words. We cannot take the Eucharist in a state of mortal sin. That would be sacrilege. When in sanctifying grace, the Eucharist cleanses us from venial sin and decreases our desire for sin. It is the flesh and blood, soul and divinity of Our Lord in perfect love. Perfect love casts out sin
That was the teaching in all of Christendom for the first 1500 years. I believe Zwingli was one of the first to teach it was merely symbolic, but that was not true from the beginning.

Baptism is also an act of obedience that follows the commands of Christ. Go into all nations and preach the Gospel baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. He who believes and is baptized will be saved.

The Lord is God and can save without baptism in extraordinary circumstances where it is impossible for a penitent to be baptized, but the exception does not cancel the rule. We must be born of Water(baptism) and the spirt(saving faith) to enter the kingdom of God. If we have saving faith, our first act would not be to rebel against a clear command of Christ. Those that refuse baptism are in rebellion, and God is not obligated to admit them to heaven. It would be as though they tried to enter without a wedding garment. Jesus tells us what would happen
God may have mercy on them if they are in ignorance but it is not worth the risk. He says thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God

All of the sacraments are acts of obedience to Christ. When we act in obedience, we receive grace according to the promise. I desire obedience rather than sacrifice.

Jesus commanded it, be baptized
After His resurrection and before His ascension, Jesus breathed on the Apostles, gave them the great commission and gave them the power to forgive sins. Only God can forgive sins. His Apostles are His ambassadors whom He authorized to act in His place. We confess to a priest to receive forgiveness of sins. In extraordinary circumstances, a soul can receive forgiveness without going to a priest, but again, the exception does not nullify the rule.
Confirmation is the baptism of the Holy Spirit as described in the book of Acts
The Eucharist is commanded in John 6 and again at the last supper.
Matrimony is a sacrament that binds a couple for life. There is no divorce. Contraception intends to prevent pregnancy and its practice prevents a sacramental marriage from taking place. Contraception makes a mockery of marriage and is gravely sinful. We have rampant annulments and devaluation of marriage today, but it was not that way from the beginning. Rather than giving up Church teaching because sin more abounds, we should be called to repentance and turn from wicked ways. When we obey God, we receive grace
Holy Orders was described by the Apostles that their authority was passed on though the laying on of hands
Annotating of the sick is described in scripture when it says to call the elders(priests) of the Church together and anoint the sick with oil

You can say that you reject Catholic teaching and you have the free will to do it. What you cannot do is say that the Catholic Church is unbiblical
It may be not in agreement with your interpretation of the Bible, but it is not against the Bible itself
The Catholic Church teaches obedience to the commands of Christ

When we are born again, we are justified by God alone. At baptism we receive the threefold theological virtues of Fatih, Hope and Charity. Those virtues come from God alone and not human effort. We receive them when we deny ourselves and take up our cross in obedience
Faith to know God is and is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him, Hope that He will complete His work that He began in us, and Charity to love God and continue to obey His commands. It is not faith alone, but faith, hope and charity. Charity leads us on to good works and development of the other four heavenly virtues of justice, temperance, prudence and fortitude. It is not of ourselves. It is all by the grace of God. Christ in us, the hope of glory


The antichrist does not teach people to obey God. Jesus says Satan does not cast out Satan
The Catholic Church is not the harlot of Babylon or the Antichrist. If one says it, it does not make it true, it is slander. We cannot be the Antichrist and teach people to obey God at the same time.

There is an elect and the elect walk in obedience to the commands of Christ, they are poor in spirit, meek and pure of heart. They do not walk as Laodiceans that say they are rich, well fed and have need of nothing

 

[boughtwithaprice]

We can take actions that express our faith, such as with James 2:18 saying that he would show his faith by his works, so everyone who is a doer of the same works as James has the same faith as him and the significance of our works is not that it is part of something that we are required to have done first in order to earn our salvation as the result, but rather the significance is that it is the way to have faith, and it is by that faith alone that we are being saved. Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so Jesus graciously teaching us to be a doer of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it.

The way to love God is by being in His likeness through being a doer of His character traits, such as the way to love justice is by being a doer of justice, the way to love holiness is by being a doer of God's instructions for how to be holy as He is holy, and so forth. In other words, everything that God has commanded was specifically commanded in order to teach us how to love a different aspect of His character, which is why the Bible repeatedly says that the way to love God is by obeying His commandments.

In Romans 10:5-10, Paul referenced Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to our faith proclaiming that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey, that obedience to it brings life and a blessing, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way that God raised Jesus from the dead for salvation. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what Jesus spent his ministry teaching by word and by example and in what he accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20).

We are not saved by faith. The power of salvation does not rest with us. We are saved through faith. The power of salvation takes us through faith by its saving power
It is BY grace we are saved through faith
All glory belongs to God, He alone has the power of salvation and the words of eternal life

The rest of what you said does not appear to be objectionable

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If those are legitimate questions, I would be happy to answer you.

Lol. Well you’re not starting out very good. They were legit sent questions.

The short answer is that it is obedience to Jesus’ commands. Would you say obedience is unfruitful?

Inever said they were unfruitful. I asked what they were for. What do you recieve when you do them.

Our Lord says Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.

Yes, and in context of John 6, This food is the food which endures forever. Which one can eat of it and not die. Whoever eats will NEVER hunger or thirst. They will. Live forever. And have Gods assurance that he will raise them on the last day.

Unlike manna, where you eat often (except saterday) yet you still die. You eat this food once and you live forever.

I do not see this in the Eucharist.

Again He says, This IS my body. Do this in remembrance of me.

yes, and different context. Unlike the food which endures forever. This food we eat often. And unlike the food which gives eternal life to everyone who eats it, This is more like manna, where we eat it often, but still die.

When we take the Eucharist, there is a direct line of Apostolic succession back to when Jesus spoke those words. We cannot take the Eucharist in a state of mortal sin. That would be sacrilege. When in sanctifying grace, the Eucharist cleanses us from venial sin and decreases our desire for sin. It is the flesh and blood, soul and divinity of Our Lord in perfect love. Perfect love casts out sin

Ahh, here we go. You answered my question.

so you take this to cleanse you from sin. So here is one work which you claim one must do to have your sin cleansed or forgiven. Thank you

That was the teaching in all of Christendom for the first 1500 years. I believe Zwingli was one of the first to teach it was merely symbolic, but that was not true from the beginning.

well considering the roman church by the power of rome ruled the world for the 1st 1500 years I would not expect anythign else. Anyone who taught otherwise would be imprisoned or killed.

I tend to just rather read the word and see what it says. i do nto see the Eucharist in the word. For one, people eat it all the time, so they still hunger, they still thirst. they still die physically. And are not assured they will not in the end die spiritually. So it is not the food which endures forever.

Baptism is also an act of obedience that follows the commands of Christ.

Amen. I was baptized a year after i was born again

Go into all nations and preach the Gospel baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. He who believes and is baptized will be saved.

Yes, i was baptized by God the moment I trusted in him, again, i was baptized in water a year later

The Lord is God and can save without baptism in extraordinary circumstances where it is impossible for a penitent to be baptized,

Ah, so you answered my question again, thank you.

You believe that one can be saved apart from the work of righteousness which we call water baptism, but that is not the norm.

but the exception does not cancel the rule. We must be born of Water(baptism) and the spirt(saving faith) to enter the kingdom of God.

yes, I was born of water and spirit, i was born again, when i did as Jesus told nicodemus, that as moses raised the serpent, so to must the son of man be lifted up. That whever believes will not perish, but live forever. For god so loved the world he gave his only son, that whoever believed in him will nbot perish, but live forever.

Jesus was not sent to judge but to save, whoever believes is not condemned, whoever does nto believe is condemned already.

Again, i was born again when I called out to God. I was baptized into christ and his body and his death by God himself. I was baptized in water in obedience to christ a year late.r

If we have saving faith, our first act would not be to rebel against a clear command of Christ. Those that refuse baptism are in rebellion, and God is not obligated to admit them to heaven. It would be as though they tried to enter without a wedding garment. Jesus tells us what would happen

I have never met a soul who refused baptism. Have you?

God may have mercy on them if they are in ignorance but it is not worth the risk. He says thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God

God will have mercy on anyone who calls out to him, he will save them on the spot.

All of the sacraments are acts of obedience to Christ. When we act in obedience, we receive grace according to the promise. I desire obedience rather than sacrifice.

so your working in order to recieve grace.

Whatever happened to if it is if grace it is no longer of works. Otherwise grace is no longer grace?

Jesus commanded it, be baptized
After His resurrection and before His ascension, Jesus breathed on the Apostles, gave them the great commission and gave them the power to forgive sins. Only God can forgive sins. His Apostles are His ambassadors whom He authorized to act in His place. We confess to a priest to receive forgiveness of sins. In extraordinary circumstances, a soul can receive forgiveness without going to a priest, but again, the exception does not nullify the rule.

I was baptized by the circumcision of God made without hands.

And now you adding another work to gain forgiveness, you confess to a priest. Unless you do this work. You may not have forgiveness..

Confirmation is the baptism of the Holy Spirit as described in the book of Acts
The Eucharist is commanded in John 6 and again at the last supper.
Matrimony is a sacrament that binds a couple for life. There is no divorce. Contraception intends to prevent pregnancy and its practice prevents a sacramental marriage from taking place. Contraception makes a mockery of marriage and is gravely sinful. We have rampant annulments and devaluation of marriage today, but it was not that way from the beginning. Rather than giving up Church teaching because sin more abounds, we should be called to repentance and turn from wicked ways. When we obey God, we receive grace
Holy Orders was described by the Apostles that their authority was passed on though the laying on of hands
Annotating of the sick is described in scripture when it says to call the elders(priests) of the Church together and anoint the sick with oil

Thts a lot of works to try to save oneself. Where does God and grace come into the picture

You can say that you reject Catholic teaching and you have the free will to do it. What you cannot do is say that the Catholic Church is unbiblical

I can;t? Says who? You just put your whole church in question. You stated the following.

We are accused that we want to earn salvation by good works. This is not true. Works do not result in salvation,

To which I legitimately questioned and the reason i asked what i did

And you just spent most of this post telling me how much work you need to do to make sure you are saved (although you said that we can still be saved even if we do not do these. The fact remains. You are doing them to get sin cleansed, to be forgiven, and to be saved

It may be not in agreement with your interpretation of the Bible, but it is not against the Bible itself

Actually yes it is.

The Catholic Church teaches obedience to the commands of Christ

All church’s teach this

But not all churches teaches that these works are done to gain or earn the grace of God. They teach they are a result of being saved, or in gratitude to god saving them, they come out of faith. you trust God with your eternity, You most likely will trust God with this life also

When we are born again, we are justified by God alone. At baptism we receive the threefold theological virtues of Fatih, Hope and Charity. Those virtues come from God alone and not human effort.

Now wait a minute, you said we are born again by baptism, now your saying baptism comes after??

We receive them when we deny ourselves and take up our cross in obedience
Faith to know God is and is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him, Hope that He will complete His work that He began in us,

Paul said I can be confident that he who began a good will complete it. i do not need to hope he may complete it I can know he will.

and Charity to love God and continue to obey His commands. It is not faith alone, but faith, hope and charity. Charity leads us on to good works and development of the other four heavenly virtues of justice, temperance, prudence and fortitude. It is not of ourselves. It is all by the grace of God. Christ in us, the hope of glory


The antichrist does not teach people to obey God. Jesus says Satan does not cast out Satan
The Catholic Church is not the harlot of Babylon or the Antichrist. If one says it, it does not make it true, it is slander. We cannot be the Antichrist and teach people to obey God at the same time.

There is an elect and the elect walk in obedience to the commands of Christ, they are poor in spirit, meek and pure of heart. They do not walk as Laodiceans that say they are rich, well fed and have need of nothing

Sorry my friend, I am not here to bash a church, I just asked a question because of somethign you said, which is different than what I have heard. And sadly. What you said, and what you believe contradict itself.

if the church causes you to do that, then yes, i have a problem with that church no matter what church it is

 

[Valletta]

so you take this to cleanse you from sin. So here is one work which you claim one must do to have your sin cleansed or forgiven. Thank you

As to the Holy Eucharist, Jesus tells us to "do this." That is good enough for me.