It's often said, and many believe, that god is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient... which begs one question...
Does god know he can make a rock so big he can't move it?
Does god know he can make a rock so big he can't move it?
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A rock so big, it can't be moved.
- Thread starter HitchSlap
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Paradoxum
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Of course he can't make a rock so heavy he can't move (not that weigh would mean anything to God).
It is like asking if God can move something that he has chosen not to move. Well yes he could, if he chose to move it.
It makes much more sense to me that omnipotence is an act of will, rather than an act of power. It would be just as easy for God to create the world as to move a feather.
Saying 'God can do anything' or that 'God is all-powerful' is really unhelpful when trying to have a reasonable understanding of omnipotence. A connected idea is whether God is beyond logic. Well if we place God outside logic we might as well stop talking about God. The word God becomes meaningless nonsense covered in mysterious terms.
It is like asking if God can move something that he has chosen not to move. Well yes he could, if he chose to move it.
It makes much more sense to me that omnipotence is an act of will, rather than an act of power. It would be just as easy for God to create the world as to move a feather.
Saying 'God can do anything' or that 'God is all-powerful' is really unhelpful when trying to have a reasonable understanding of omnipotence. A connected idea is whether God is beyond logic. Well if we place God outside logic we might as well stop talking about God. The word God becomes meaningless nonsense covered in mysterious terms.
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GoldenBoy89
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I would have to say, if he's omniscient then yes, he knows of a particular scenario where he couldn't move the rock. I sometimes wonder if God has rules He must follow. Perhaps the laws of nature, perhaps laws we can't even begin to imagine -I'm no expert
But back to the rock.... If God can do anything, he can simultaneously hold the notion of moving the rock and not moving the rock. No matter how illogical that might seem to us simple mortals
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elopez
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There is no rock so big that God could not move it. That is because omnipotence means God has power over all things. He is all - powerful. Nothing has more power or is too heavy for God.
So it's not a matter of God not knowing or not being able to move a rock so big, yet a matter of the request being illegitimate, as it would be a contradiction for something to be more powerful or too big or heavy for Him.
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Doubt is a heavy burden some choose to bear.(glimpses)
With God, all things are possible.
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mmksparbud
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Heavier than the biggest planet??--He still can fling those around with His little finger!
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Lord Emsworth
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The Engineer
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The existence of a rock that can't be lifted and a being that can lift said rock are mutually exclusive. Both existing at the same time would be a paradox.
In the end, it boils down to the question of whether God is bound by the laws of logic or not. If he is, he can't create a rock he can't lift and then lift it. If you ask me, this means he isn't omnipotent, not in the strict sense, at least.
Paradoxum sums the alternative up quite well, if you ask me:
The existence of an omnipotent God would be illogical, and assuming the existence of an illogical entity is irrational.
In the end, it boils down to the question of whether God is bound by the laws of logic or not. If he is, he can't create a rock he can't lift and then lift it. If you ask me, this means he isn't omnipotent, not in the strict sense, at least.
Paradoxum sums the alternative up quite well, if you ask me:
The existence of an omnipotent God would be illogical, and assuming the existence of an illogical entity is irrational.
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The Engineer
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Omnipotence is unlimited power. If power is limited by the rules of logic, it's still limited.
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Paradoxum
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I'm not sure if that is just word games. Comparable to saying that if there is nothing in a box then there must be something, because if there is nothing in there then that 'nothing' is something.
To think that logic is a limit could be a misunderstanding of logic and language.
As I said in my last post, I don't think omnipotence has anything to do with power. Using the word unlimited is also unhelpful. It makes more sense to me to think of omnipotence as being able to do anything, and then try to work out more specifically what that would mean.
It pretty much comes down to making up a definition for the word. I just don't consider it helpful to turn it into a pointless concept, such as by making it go beyond logic.
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elopez
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It is not even a matter of God being bound by logic or not. The issue is about the situation itself, more specifically whether or not the situation is even a legitimate request.
You are essentially saying God is not omnipotent because there is no rock too heavy for Him, which is to say God is not all - powerful because a rock cannot be too heavy for Him, which is is just ridiculous and does not follow at all. In fact, God would retain omnipotence in the case that there is no such rock, as omnipotence should be defined exactly as it is "all - powerful." Nothing has more power than God. Nothing can thwart His will.
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QueSi
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HitchSlap said:
I have heard this plenty of times and still fail to understand how something with an infinite amount of potential strength could not move something with a finite size. God = infinite, rock = finite, God > rock like infinite > finite. Simple, easy math.
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Interesting that someone who wants to contradict God can find a paradox to stop Him, but if the same person examines the quantum world, he can easily find a way to say something both happens and doesn't happen at the same time.
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Thank you for posting that. The question that HitchSlap asked is so easily answered that even an atheist should be able to figure it out without much difficulty.
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