A riddle

[skylark1]

I was speaking from personal experience regarding what I have seen from various ministers in Christendom, and it does smack of the sell job I referenced. The person you refer in the temple was described as a sincere seeker of the truth who repented when confronted with the truth. If we agree, then what's the argument?

We are not in agreement.

 

[gort]

In light of that, you should understand if I choose to just turn away from you.

My suspicions were correct, but I thought it best to ask you your point first to make sure. I never had the guts to flame others with the scriptures like you do.

 

[bexcellent]

We are not in agreement.

It is sounding like you can not make up your mind. Which way is it for you? Is it important for one to follow Christ and to live His commandments to the best of one's ability or is it not important for one to follow Christ and to live by His commandments to the best of one's ability? I don't think you can have it both ways.

 

[skylark1]

It is sounding like you can not make up your mind. Which way is it for you? Is it important for one to follow Christ and to live His commandments to the best of one's ability or is it not important for one to follow Christ and to live by His commandments to the best of one's ability? I don't think you can have it both ways.

I have given no indication that it is not important to follow Christ. None. This is a strawman that you have introduced into the discussion.

I am not in agreement with you in your judgments and in your opinions concerning the beliefs and teachings of orthodox Christians and ministers. I hope that is clear enought to you now.



The following is what I posted previously, which was ignored by you while another strawman was introduced. I have said nothing that contradicts this, and stand by it.

Philippians 3:4-11

If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless.

But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead
​

I don't think that anyone here is advocating not following Christ, or not seeking to do his will. Paul wasn't expressing that thought in this passage either. Rather, like Paul, they are saying that there is a righteousness that comes from following the law, and a righteousness that comes from God, through faith in Jesus Christ.


Although Paul expressed that it is better to have a righteousness that comes from God through faith in Christ, rather than a legalistic righteousness, he also did not advocate not following Christ, or not seeking to do his will. He wrote that we should walk in newness of life, and walk in the Spirit. This is what we believe, as well.

Romans 6:1-4

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.​

 

[Eutrepismus]

I have taken no personal umbrage against you. I have simply found it to be obvious, by your post in response to my reply to MamaZ, in which you included these statements...

Obedience is an obligatory principle of Mormon Soteriology in the Mormon Gospel.
Any member’s personal opinion to the contrary is at odds with the Church’s teaching on the subject.

that you did not take sufficient note of the statement I was responding to, and also missed the point I was making. My saying so is neither disingenuous, nor does it equate to umbrage, personal or otherwise, and I fail to see where addressing that obvious error, equates to either.

However maybe you're saying there was no error, and that you responded to my post the way you did because you did not think that I was giving a personal opinion that was contrary and at odds with Church teachings. Of course, if that is the case, it would have made absolutely no sense, whatsoever, for you to respond to my post in such a way, in the first place.

But, if you think my noticing an obvious error, and commenting on it, equates to either disingenuousness or umbrage, then you are mistaken about that too.

<yawn>

 

[bbbbbbb]

No - what? No you don't have to do what God commands?

Not any more than you do. If Jesus Christ has fulfilled the Law we are not under obligation to fulfill it (Galatians 5:14). On the other hand, if Christ has not fulfilled the Law then who are you to determine what parts, if not all, must be fulfilled?

 

[bbbbbbb]

I appreciate you answering this question. And I think this establishes an important point in this discussion - there is an expectation to do as God commands.

Often the motivation for following this expectation is questioned, but that is a personal issue. Each person will have their own reason for following the commandments of God and no one can answer that question for them. For me, I am an order kind of guy. I feel comfortable staying within the guidelines that have been set down. Not out of fear of punishment, not out of hope of reward, but simply because I believe in order. The expectation of God that I should follow His commandments is enough for me to do my best in doing so. I have heard others explain that they obey God because He loved them first and they want to return that love. And no doubt there are those who obey because they want to live with God once again. However, for this discussion, motive is unimportant.

The beautiful doctrine which has been discussed in this thread: "For we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do". The beauty of it didn't really strike me until I started participating in these debate forums. These are the basics of this doctrine:

1. We are expected to do our best to follow the commandments.

2. God makes up the rest through. Through grace.

This doctrines works with all of the passages regarding salvation in the Bible and of course in our other works of scripture.

As you have already agreed, there is an expectation to do as God commands. However, we are imperfect and that will never result in salvation. All of us will fall short and require the saving Grace of God. And at that point God makes up the rest for us. Very simple. Very wonderful.

I suspect there might be a few scriptures thrown at this concept and I will be happy to address them.

There is a significant difference between expectation and requirement. If I require a taxi to get me to the airport in time for my flight it is different than if I expect it to get me to the airport. It is similar to saying Heavenly Father desires all men to be saved rather than Heavenly Father will save all men.

If there is merely a vague expectation, there are no consequences attached to it. If it is a requirement then there are consequences.

I have no problem at all with you saying that Heavenly Father expects you to be a good chap or that He expects me to be the same, too. It is a different kettle of fish, however, if Heavenly Father requires you to be as good as good can be if you want to enter the Celestial Kingdom.

 

[Ran77]

If there is merely a vague expectation, there are no consequences attached to it. If it is a requirement then there are consequences.

If I understand you correctly, you don't believe there are consequences for not obeying God's commandments? Or do you mean something else?

 

[Ran77]

Not any more than you do. If Jesus Christ has fulfilled the Law we are not under obligation to fulfill it (Galatians 5:14). On the other hand, if Christ has not fulfilled the Law then who are you to determine what parts, if not all, must be fulfilled?

You already answered this with a previous post. And I have already responded to it. I don't think it is necessary to devolve the discussion to an earlier point.

 

[Ran77]

I have no problem at all with you saying that Heavenly Father expects you to be a good chap or that He expects me to be the same, too. It is a different kettle of fish, however, if Heavenly Father requires you to be as good as good can be if you want to enter the Celestial Kingdom.

Are you saying that God doesn't expect us to do our best?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Are you saying that God doesn't expect us to do our best?

I would like to think that God expects the best from everyone, but I know He requires absolute sinlessness to enter heaven.

 

[BarryK]

I would like to think that God expects the best from everyone, but I know He requires absolute sinlessness to enter heaven.

I agree!!!
Heaven is a perfect place, once any sing ets inside, it is no longer perfect!!!
Therefore it has to be a totally sinless place.

we all have sin of some sort in our lives, it is our nature, it is simply the way we are.
there is nothing that we can do to KATAREGO that sin. it is beyond our human capability to do so.

Only the Blood of Jesus can wash away that sin, nothing else, there is no work we can do, no practice we can avoid thatr will clense us of sin. there are no hoops to jump thru, no grades of preformance, no amount of meditations, no nothing that can take away that sin.

Only the Blood of Jesus can take it away!

It is nothing we can earn
it is a gift from God.
it is given freely
it is given in grace
it is recieved by faith
that faith is given by revelation from Father

sure there are "good works" but we are susposed to be doing thises things anyway, whether we are "saved" or not.

I know many "rightious pagans" who are not saved, have no real knowledge of Jesus, they dont want nothing to do with Him at all, but they are doing all sorts of "good works" that put most of Christs EKKLESIA to shame!!

we are susposed to do "good Works" anyway
and these works oare not jump[ing thru religious hoops, they are the simple things, feeding the poor. visiting the prisoners, healing the ssick, etc, etc,

but dont forget these works wont get you anywhere, only the Blood of Christ will clense your sin from you

 

[Ran77]

I would like to think that God expects the best from everyone, but I know He requires absolute sinlessness to enter heaven.

So then, where is the disagreement? Nothing I have presented would indicate otherwise, in fact it is very supportive of that very idea. If we are in agreement that God expects the best from us, but requires sinlessness to enter heaven, then I think we are done with this discussion.

 

[bbbbbbb]

So then, where is the disagreement? Nothing I have presented would indicate otherwise, in fact it is very supportive of that very idea. If we are in agreement that God expects the best from us, but requires sinlessness to enter heaven, then I think we are done with this discussion.

My question to you, then, is have you met God's requirements for entering heaven?

 

[Ran77]

My question to you, then, is have you met God's requirements for entering heaven?

I'll let you know on judgment day.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I'll let you know on judgment day.

I am afraid it will then be too late for you if you expect to become sinless by then.

I John 5 11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

 

[BarryK]

I am afraid it will then be too late for you if you expect to become sinless by then.

I John 5 11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

indeed, it is not what happens after we die that determines where we spend eternity ( as we will al have eternal life, it is simply which of two places we will spend it)

Hebrews 9:27 (KJV)
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

it is very simple
1) you live
2) you die
3) judgement

(you will notice I did not mention anything about "spirit prison" a.k.a. " &#964;&#945;&#961;&#964;&#945;&#961;&#8057;&#969; "
do a word study on Strongs # 5020 and you will see why)

it is quite clear, wither you die in sin, or you die sinless

 

[Ran77]

I am afraid it will then be too late for you if you expect to become sinless by then.

Oh, don't be afraid.

 

[BarryK]

indeed, it is not what happens after we die that determines where we spend eternity ( as we will al have eternal life, it is simply which of two places we will spend it)

Hebrews 9:27 (KJV)
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

it is very simple
1) you live
2) you die
3) judgement

(you will notice I did not mention anything about "spirit prison" a.k.a. " &#964;&#945;&#961;&#964;&#945;&#961;&#8057;&#969; "
do a word study on Strongs # 5020 and you will see why)

it is quite clear, wither you die in sin, or you die sinless

has anybody taken up their copy of Strongs to do a quick study on strongs #5020 yet
hee is a nudge nudge to get you going, it blows the L.D.S. perception of "spirit prison" outta the water

 

[BarryK]

bumptiy- bump- bump

has anybody taken up their copy of Strongs to do a quick study on strongs #5020 yet
hee is a nudge nudge to get you going, it blows the L.D.S. perception of "spirit prison" outta the water