A riddle

[Zechariah]

Obedience is an obligatory principle of Mormon Soteriology in the Mormon Gospel.
Any member’s personal opinion to the contrary is at odds with the Church’s teaching on the subject.

Neither my opinion, nor the Church's teachings, are at odds with each other, nor are they at odds with the scriptures on the subject either.

Obviously, though, you did not take sufficient note of the statement I was responding to, and have also missed the point I was making in my response. I never claimed that obedience is unnecessary to salvation. To the contrary, obedience is most certainly necessary.

Oh - by the way - cute picture.

 

[gort]

My church is not under any kind of an obligation to teach those concepts according to your interpretation of them.

This "interpretation" thing is just a gimmick. It answers nothing, says nothing and means nothing. It is simply a way for you to slide right past . The NT is full of easy enough to read scriptures that clearly explain the relationship of such.

There are those who follow Christ who have Him as their example, that is, they seek to do His will to the best of their ability, and there are those who seek to provide a pass for those who would excuse worldliness.

There are also whole sections that Jesus spoke of concerning the wheat and the tares.

To Mormons, legal isn't a bad word. You may say that we worship a different Jesus; if your Jesus is a lawless God that doesn't care whether or not if we follow the world, then, we surely believe in a different Jesus.

You give such a dishonest answer

 

[gort]

[FONT=&quot]"We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."[/FONT]-[FONT=&quot] The Third Article in the creed of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It may be that not everyone who calls themselves "Mormons" accepts, believes, and practices this article, but the Church through its leaders does officially claim it as an essential belief.

The 12th article in the Mormon creed also addresses obedience:
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]"We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law."[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
From an Aaronic Priesthood Manual:
[FONT=&quot]
"Obedience Is a Basic Principle of the Gospel"
"Obedience is one of the most important and basic laws of God."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Discuss what each scripture has to do with obedience. You may want to summarize these points on the chalkboard.[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]1.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Abraham 3:24–25 (We were sent to earth to see if we would obey.)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]2. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]John 14:15 (If we love the Savior, we will keep his commandments.)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]3.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 1 Nephi 3:7 (The Lord will prepare a way for us to obey his commandments.)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]4.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Doctrine and Covenants 82:10 (The Lord will do his part if we obey.)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]5.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Doctrine and Covenants 130:20–21 (All blessings are based on obedience to particular laws.)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]6. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Matthew 7:21 (Only those who obey will live with Heavenly Father.)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Have a young man quote the third article of faith: “We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Testify that obedience is a basic principle of the gospel. If we have faith in Jesus Christ, we will keep his commandments and become like him. Only by being obedient can we return to our Heavenly Father’s presence."- from the Aaronic Priesthood Manual 1, Lesson 34, 'Obedience'. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot](LDS.org - Support Materials Chapter - Obedience)[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

"Let us be distinctive as a people because of our obedience to God’s laws."Apostle Ezra Taft Benson, A Principle with a Promise" (Ensign, May 1983)

"Faith requires an attitude of exact obedience, even in the small, simple things. ... As patterns of obedience develop, the specific blessings associated with obedience are realized and belief emerges. Desire, hope, and belief are forms of faith, but faith as a principle of power comes from a consistent pattern of obedient behavior and attitudes." Seventy Kevin W. Pearson, "Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ". (Ensign, May 2009)

"My brothers and sisters, in this marvelous dispensation of the fulness of times, as we journey through mortality and face the trials and challenges of the future, may we remember the examples of these models to follow which I have referred to this morning. May we have the unfeigned humility of John the Baptist, the unquestioning obedience of Abraham, the unlimited patience of Job, the unwavering faith of Noah, the undeviating loyalty of Ruth, the unflagging determination of Nephi, the undaunted courage of the Prophet Joseph Smith, and the unfailing optimism of President Hinckley."President Thomas S. Monson, "Models to Follow" (Ensign, November 2002)

"God’s eternal blessings are contingent upon our obedience and adherence to the word of the Lord that is revealed to us through His holy prophets." Apostle L. Tom Perry, "We Believe All that God has Revealed" (Liahona, November 2003)

"Rather, it is our hearts and our aspirations and our obedience which definitively determine whether we are counted as one of God’s chosen." Apostle David A. Bednar, "The Tender Mercies of the Lord," (Liahona, May 2005)

"It is said that faith is a gift of God, and so it is; but faith does not come without works; faith does not come without obedience to the commandments of God." (Gospel Doctrine, p. 466), Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith.

"Purpose: To remind class members that salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ and obedience to his commandments. ...
Testify that salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ and obedience to his commandments. Encourage class members to keep the covenants and commandments of the restored gospel."
"Jesus Christ: the Author and Finisher of Our Faith", New Testament Gospel Doctrines Teachers Manual, Lesson 37,

"When we lived with our Heavenly Father, he explained a plan for our progression. We could become like him, an exalted being. The plan required that we be separated from him and come to earth. This separation was necessary to prove whether we would obey our Father's commandments even though we were no longer in his presence. The plan provided that when earth life ended, we would be judged and rewarded according to the degree of our faith and obedience. We would then be assigned to the place for which we had prepared."
Gospel Principles, Chapter 47, Exaltation, (Gospel Principles)
[/FONT]
Etc., etc., etc.

Obedience is an obligatory principle of Mormon Soteriology in the Mormon Gospel.
Any member’s personal opinion to the contrary is at odds with the Church’s teaching on the subject.

A fine collection of works one must do you have provided.

Is there anything at all in mormonism that simply speaks to faith in Jesus brings salvation? Anything at all??

 

[bexcellent]

This "interpretation" thing is just a gimmick. It answers nothing, says nothing and means nothing. It is simply a way for you to slide right past . The NT is full of easy enough to read scriptures that clearly explain the relationship of such.




There are also whole sections that Jesus spoke of concerning the wheat and the tares.




You give such a dishonest answer

THE SECOND EPISTLE OF PAUL THE APOSTLE TO
TIMOTHY
CHAPTER 3

1 This know also, that in the alast days perilous btimes shall come.

2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, acovetous, boasters, bproud, blasphemers, cdisobedient to parents, dunthankful, unholy,

3 Without anatural baffection, ctrucebreakers, dfalse accusers, eincontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

4 aTraitors, bheady, chighminded, lovers of dpleasures more than lovers of God;


5 Having a aform of godliness, but bdenying the power thereof: from such turn away.

 

[Ran77]

The last several sentences of your post just don't make sense at all, sorry.

Then we will just leave it at that.

 

[gort]

THE SECOND EPISTLE OF PAUL THE APOSTLE TO
TIMOTHY
CHAPTER 3

1 This know also, that in the alast days perilous btimes shall come.

2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, acovetous, boasters, bproud, blasphemers, cdisobedient to parents, dunthankful, unholy,

3 Without anatural baffection, ctrucebreakers, dfalse accusers, eincontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

4 aTraitors, bheady, chighminded, lovers of dpleasures more than lovers of God;


5 Having a aform of godliness, but bdenying the power thereof: from such turn away.

So what's your point here?

 

[gort]

No, Mormons don't believe they are equal to God in this life. But they do believe, as you very well know, that they can, through their obedience to the laws and ordinances to the [LDS] gospel, achieve godhood in the hereafter, just as God did to achieve his own godhood.

As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become

satan said,
Isa 14:14 I will go up above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the Most High.

 

[Eutrepismus]

Obviously, though, you did not take sufficient note of the statement I was responding to, and have also missed the point I was making in my response. I never claimed that obedience is unnecessary to salvation. To the contrary, obedience is most certainly necessary.

If you had omitted the word "obviously", your post would simply have been untrue. With the "Obviously" added it verges on the disingenuous.

What are you complaining about. I was not giving my personal opinion. I was citing Mormon authorities. If you disagree, it is with them you should take your complaint. If you agree, why take personal umbrage against me.

 

[Moodshadow]

Then we will just leave it at that.

No explanation, no clarification, nothing of substance?

Why change a time-honored tradition, huh?

 

[MamaZ]

If you obey what you believe to be necessary is this what makes one worth?

 

[skylark1]

My church is not under any kind of an obligation to teach those concepts according to your interpretation of them. There are those who follow Christ who have Him as their example, that is, they seek to do His will to the best of their ability, and there are those who seek to provide a pass for those who would excuse worldliness. To Mormons, legal isn't a bad word. You may say that we worship a different Jesus; if your Jesus is a lawless God that doesn't care whether or not if we follow the world, then, we surely believe in a different Jesus.

Philippians 3:4-11

If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless.

But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead
​

I don't think that anyone here is advocating not following Christ, or not seeking to do his will. Paul wasn't expressing that thought in this passage either. Rather, like Paul, they are saying that there is a righteousness that comes from following the law, and a righteousness that comes from God, through faith in Jesus Christ.


Although Paul expressed that it is better to have a righteousness that comes from God through faith in Christ, rather than a legalistic righteousness, he also did not advocate not following Christ, or not seeking to do his will. He wrote that we should walk in newness of life, and walk in the Spirit. This is what we believe, as well.

Romans 6:1-4

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.​

 

[bexcellent]

So what's your point here?

In light of that, you should understand if I choose to just turn away from you.

 

[bexcellent]

Philippians 3:4-11

If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless.

But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead
​

I don't think that anyone here is advocating not following Christ, or not seeking to do his will. Paul wasn't expressing that thought in this passage either. Rather, like Paul, they are saying that there is a righteousness that comes from following the law, and a righteousness that comes from God, through faith in Jesus Christ.


Although Paul expressed that it is better to have a righteousness that comes from God through faith in Christ, rather than a legalistic righteousness, he also did not advocate not following Christ, or not seeking to do his will. He wrote that we should walk in newness of life, and walk in the Spirit. This is what we believe, as well.

Romans 6:1-4

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.​

Who is advocating a completely legalistic approach to living the commandments?

John 14


15If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

 

[skylark1]

Who is advocating a completely legalistic approach to living the commandments?

Please show me where I said this.


This is the post that I was responding to:

My church is not under any kind of an obligation to teach those concepts according to your interpretation of them. There are those who follow Christ who have Him as their example, that is, they seek to do His will to the best of their ability, and there are those who seek to provide a pass for those who would excuse worldliness. To Mormons, legal isn't a bad word. You may say that we worship a different Jesus; if your Jesus is a lawless God that doesn't care whether or not if we follow the world, then, we surely believe in a different Jesus.​

The portion bolded is not a positon that anyone here has advocated. That was my point. What followed is an explanation of what we do beleive.

 

[bexcellent]

Please show me where I said this.


This is the post that I was responding to:

My church is not under any kind of an obligation to teach those concepts according to your interpretation of them. There are those who follow Christ who have Him as their example, that is, they seek to do His will to the best of their ability, and there are those who seek to provide a pass for those who would excuse worldliness. To Mormons, legal isn't a bad word. You may say that we worship a different Jesus; if your Jesus is a lawless God that doesn't care whether or not if we follow the world, then, we surely believe in a different Jesus.​

The portion bolded is not a positon that anyone here has advocated. That was my point. What followed is an explanation of what we do beleive.

Please note

if your Jesus is a lawless God that doesn't care whether or not if we follow the world

What do you see as the difference between the way you believe and the way Mormons believe? I find much of the preaching in the business of Christianity to be a sell job that offers eternal heavenly bliss and you don't have to live the commandments. I believe that is just a dishonest sell job to lure membership and followers to their congregations.

 

[Zechariah]

If you had omitted the word "obviously", your post would simply have been untrue. With the "Obviously" added it verges on the disingenuous.

What are you complaining about. I was not giving my personal opinion. I was citing Mormon authorities. If you disagree, it is with them you should take your complaint. If you agree, why take personal umbrage against me.

I have taken no personal umbrage against you. I have simply found it to be obvious, by your post in response to my reply to MamaZ, in which you included these statements...

Obedience is an obligatory principle of Mormon Soteriology in the Mormon Gospel.
Any member’s personal opinion to the contrary is at odds with the Church’s teaching on the subject.

that you did not take sufficient note of the statement I was responding to, and also missed the point I was making. My saying so is neither disingenuous, nor does it equate to umbrage, personal or otherwise, and I fail to see where addressing that obvious error, equates to either.

However maybe you're saying there was no error, and that you responded to my post the way you did because you did not think that I was giving a personal opinion that was contrary and at odds with Church teachings. Of course, if that is the case, it would have made absolutely no sense, whatsoever, for you to respond to my post in such a way, in the first place.

But, if you think my noticing an obvious error, and commenting on it, equates to either disingenuousness or umbrage, then you are mistaken about that too.

 

[skylark1]

Please note

if your Jesus is a lawless God that doesn't care whether or not if we follow the world

I noted it. I also noted the implication.

What do you see as the difference between the way you believe and the way Mormons believe? I find much of the preaching in the business of Christianity to be a sell job that offers eternal heavenly bliss and you don't have to live the commandments. I believe that is just a dishonest sell job to lure membership and followers to their congregations.

"Bexcellent,"

It would be better to listen to what we say that we believe, insead of telling us what we believe. Claiming that we believe in cheap grace, that we do not believe in discipleship or in following our Lord, or that our ministers are dishonest salesmen, does not make it true. Even if our ministers have been portrayed agents of Satan in your ceremonies, it does not make it true.

I have never been to a church that preached antinomism (The heretical doctrine that Christians are exempt from the obligations of moral law.). Nor do I know of any church that advocates this position.

Of course you are free to judge all that you want. Are you honest in your interactions with all men? Are you in a position to judge others?

Matthew 7

1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?​

 

[bexcellent]

I noted it. I also noted the implication.


"Bexcellent,"

It would be better to listen to what we say that we believe, insead of telling us what we believe. Claiming that we believe in cheap grace, that we do not believe in discipleship or in following our Lord, or that our ministers are dishonest salesmen, does not make it true. Even if our ministers have been portrayed agents of Satan in your ceremonies, it does not make it true.

I have never been to a church that preached antinomism (The heretical doctrine that Christians are exempt from the obligations of moral law.). Nor do I know of any church that advocates this position.

Of course you are free to judge all that you want. Are you honest in your interactions with all men? Are you in a position to judge others?

Matthew 7

1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?​

I was speaking from personal experience regarding what I have seen from various ministers in Christendom, and it does smack of the sell job I referenced. The person you refer in the temple was described as a sincere seeker of the truth who repented when confronted with the truth. If we agree, then what's the argument?

 

[Ran77]

No explanation, no clarification, nothing of substance?

Why change a time-honored tradition, huh?

The unfriendly comment is duly noted.

 

[Ran77]

Please allow me to attempt to answer your questions that, hopefully, you will understand.

1. Does that mean there is no expectation on the part of Christians to do what God commands?

No.

2. Are those who are converted unto Christ exempt from doing good?

No.

I appreciate you answering this question. And I think this establishes an important point in this discussion - there is an expectation to do as God commands.

Often the motivation for following this expectation is questioned, but that is a personal issue. Each person will have their own reason for following the commandments of God and no one can answer that question for them. For me, I am an order kind of guy. I feel comfortable staying within the guidelines that have been set down. Not out of fear of punishment, not out of hope of reward, but simply because I believe in order. The expectation of God that I should follow His commandments is enough for me to do my best in doing so. I have heard others explain that they obey God because He loved them first and they want to return that love. And no doubt there are those who obey because they want to live with God once again. However, for this discussion, motive is unimportant.

The beautiful doctrine which has been discussed in this thread: "For we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do". The beauty of it didn't really strike me until I started participating in these debate forums. These are the basics of this doctrine:

1. We are expected to do our best to follow the commandments.

2. God makes up the rest through. Through grace.

This doctrines works with all of the passages regarding salvation in the Bible and of course in our other works of scripture.

As you have already agreed, there is an expectation to do as God commands. However, we are imperfect and that will never result in salvation. All of us will fall short and require the saving Grace of God. And at that point God makes up the rest for us. Very simple. Very wonderful.

I suspect there might be a few scriptures thrown at this concept and I will be happy to address them.