A riddle

[Ran77]

Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

God is the author and finisher of the Christan's works.

That does not address my questions.

 

[Ran77]

Please clarify your question for me. Which commandments are you speaking of?

That would be the words of God, when they instruct His followers to do something. If you want a smaller sub-set to work with, we can stick with anything Jesus said to do.

 

[Moodshadow]

There are many people that agree with Charles Manson. That doesn't make it right. There many who actually claim to agree with the teachings of Joseph Smith, and that doesn't make them right, either.

And it doesn't explain why you included a statement that didn't represent the beliefs of anyone involved in this discussion.

Don't you think it's a tad presumptuous to speak for any besides yourself? (Oh, and by the way, this discussion isn't about me. )

 

[Moodshadow]

That would be the words of God, when they instruct His followers to do something. If you want a smaller sub-set to work with, we can stick with anything Jesus said to do.

Matt. 7: 15. Jesus said to beware of false prophets.

 

[bexcellent]

You should study the greek word pistis which is faith in the english language.

You should also study what it means to be reborn.

How many times do you think I should have to do this?

The scriptures say:

1Jn 3:9 Everyone who has been born of God does not commit sin, because His seed remains in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

If those who are born of God cannot commit sin, don't you think that such do what they are asked and also seek to be like Him?

Since you want to talk about 1 John, I find this very telling:

1 John 1

5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[gort]

How many times do you think I should have to do this?

When you can quit looking through legalistic eyes and find the true relationship between being reborn, having a new heart and knowing what faith really means. Your church is obviously not teaching you this.

 

[bbbbbbb]

That would be the words of God, when they instruct His followers to do something. If you want a smaller sub-set to work with, we can stick with anything Jesus said to do.

I will gladly go with your first definition. By your definition, the answer would be no. That would be no for both orthodox Christians who believe that Jesus Christ has fulfilled the Law and no for Mormons who, although professing to be under the laws and commandments of the Lord, pick and choose which laws and commandments to follow. For example, the Fourth Commandment of the Ten Commandments.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Originally Posted by Ran77

Because you have described the orthodox Christians to crisply have defined salvation as being through faith alone - does that mean there is no expectation on the part of Christians to do what God commands? Are those who are converted unto Christ exempt from doing good works?



​

Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

God is the author and finisher of the Christan's works.

That does not address my questions.

Please allow me to attempt to answer your questions that, hopefully, you will understand.

1. Does that mean there is no expectation on the part of Christians to do what God commands?

No.

2. Are those who are converted unto Christ exempt from doing good?

No.

 

[bexcellent]

When you can quit looking through legalistic eyes and find the true relationship between being reborn, having a new heart and knowing what faith really means. Your church is obviously not teaching you this.

My church is not under any kind of an obligation to teach those concepts according to your interpretation of them. There are those who follow Christ who have Him as their example, that is, they seek to do His will to the best of their ability, and there are those who seek to provide a pass for those who would excuse worldliness. To Mormons, legal isn't a bad word. You may say that we worship a different Jesus; if your Jesus is a lawless God that doesn't care whether or not if we follow the world, then, we surely believe in a different Jesus.

 

[Eutrepismus]

Jesus forgave a number of people without requiring them to obey anything.

 

[MamaZ]

So if one believes they have to by their own power obey commandments then this would be called works and works do not justify any man.

 

[Zechariah]

So if one believes they have to by their own power obey commandments then this would be called works and works do not justify any man.

Who believes that? That is not LDS belief, and certainly not mine.

But I do know that, "the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them."

I also, "know that I am nothing; as to my strength I am weak; therefore I will not boast of myself, but I will boast of my God, for in his strength I can do all things."

And I know that, "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me."

"Is any thing too hard for the Lord?"

 

[Ran77]

Matt. 7: 15. Jesus said to beware of false prophets.

And what is the result or consequence of following false prophets? Will you gain salvation by doing so?

 

[Ran77]

Don't you think it's a tad presumptuous to speak for any besides yourself? (Oh, and by the way, this discussion isn't about me. )

Who on this forum thinks that they, or the LDS are the equal of God? I don't know of anyone. Perhaps you are right and there are some who do. I will certainly let them speak up about it. The real question is that do you believe that you are the equal of God. You and I are discussing this and if you make this statement that I don't believe and a statement that you don't subscribe to then we are back to my question of why you would do so? As in 'what relevence does it have to the topic' not as in 'I care what motive you have.'

 

[Ran77]

I will gladly go with your first definition. By your definition, the answer would be no. That would be no for both orthodox Christians who believe that Jesus Christ has fulfilled the Law and no for Mormons who, although professing to be under the laws and commandments of the Lord, pick and choose which laws and commandments to follow. For example, the Fourth Commandment of the Ten Commandments.

No - what? No you don't have to do what God commands?

 

[Ran77]

Originally Posted by Ran77

Because you have described the orthodox Christians to crisply have defined salvation as being through faith alone - does that mean there is no expectation on the part of Christians to do what God commands? Are those who are converted unto Christ exempt from doing good works?



​

Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

God is the author and finisher of the Christan's works.

Please allow me to attempt to answer your questions that, hopefully, you will understand.

1. Does that mean there is no expectation on the part of Christians to do what God commands?

No.

2. Are those who are converted unto Christ exempt from doing good?

No.

Thank you for that clarification. I'm short on time, but I want to address this further later on.

 

[Moodshadow]

Who on this forum thinks that they, or the LDS are the equal of God? Since there is no earthly way I could answer that, I am going to the do only logical thing possible with that question and assume it is rhetorical. I don't know of anyone. How could you? Perhaps you are right and there are some who do. I will thank you not to ascribe beliefs to me that you do not see or hear me personally espouse. I will certainly let them speak up about it. How magnanimous. The real question is that do you believe that you are the equal of God. Yet another preposterous question, the answer to which is a resounding no. Furthermore, unlike you, I do not believe that I ever will or indeed COULD become a deity. You and I are discussing this and if you make this statement that I don't believe What statement was that? and a statement that you don't subscribe to I made a statement I don't subscribe to? How does/could that even make sense? then we are back to my question of why you would do so? What?? As in 'what relevence does it have to the topic' not as in 'I care what motive you have.'

The last several sentences of your post just don't make sense at all, sorry.

 

[Eutrepismus]

Originally Posted by MamaZ

So if one believes they have to by their own power obey commandments then this would be called works and works do not justify any man.
​

Who believes that? That is not LDS belief, and certainly not mine.

But I do know that, "the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them."

I also, "know that I am nothing; as to my strength I am weak; therefore I will not boast of myself, but I will boast of my God, for in his strength I can do all things."

And I know that, "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me."

"Is any thing too hard for the Lord?"

[FONT=&quot]"We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."[/FONT]-[FONT=&quot] The Third Article in the creed of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It may be that not everyone who calls themselves "Mormons" accepts, believes, and practices this article, but the Church through its leaders does officially claim it as an essential belief.

The 12th article in the Mormon creed also addresses obedience:
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]"We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law."[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
From an Aaronic Priesthood Manual:
[FONT=&quot]
"Obedience Is a Basic Principle of the Gospel"
"Obedience is one of the most important and basic laws of God."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Discuss what each scripture has to do with obedience. You may want to summarize these points on the chalkboard.[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]1.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Abraham 3:24–25 (We were sent to earth to see if we would obey.)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]2. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]John 14:15 (If we love the Savior, we will keep his commandments.)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]3.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 1 Nephi 3:7 (The Lord will prepare a way for us to obey his commandments.)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]4.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Doctrine and Covenants 82:10 (The Lord will do his part if we obey.)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]5.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Doctrine and Covenants 130:20–21 (All blessings are based on obedience to particular laws.)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]6. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Matthew 7:21 (Only those who obey will live with Heavenly Father.)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Have a young man quote the third article of faith: “We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Testify that obedience is a basic principle of the gospel. If we have faith in Jesus Christ, we will keep his commandments and become like him. Only by being obedient can we return to our Heavenly Father’s presence."- from the Aaronic Priesthood Manual 1, Lesson 34, 'Obedience'. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot](LDS.org - Support Materials Chapter - Obedience)[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

"Let us be distinctive as a people because of our obedience to God’s laws."Apostle Ezra Taft Benson, A Principle with a Promise" (Ensign, May 1983)

"Faith requires an attitude of exact obedience, even in the small, simple things. ... As patterns of obedience develop, the specific blessings associated with obedience are realized and belief emerges. Desire, hope, and belief are forms of faith, but faith as a principle of power comes from a consistent pattern of obedient behavior and attitudes." Seventy Kevin W. Pearson, "Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ". (Ensign, May 2009)

"My brothers and sisters, in this marvelous dispensation of the fulness of times, as we journey through mortality and face the trials and challenges of the future, may we remember the examples of these models to follow which I have referred to this morning. May we have the unfeigned humility of John the Baptist, the unquestioning obedience of Abraham, the unlimited patience of Job, the unwavering faith of Noah, the undeviating loyalty of Ruth, the unflagging determination of Nephi, the undaunted courage of the Prophet Joseph Smith, and the unfailing optimism of President Hinckley."President Thomas S. Monson, "Models to Follow" (Ensign, November 2002)

"God’s eternal blessings are contingent upon our obedience and adherence to the word of the Lord that is revealed to us through His holy prophets." Apostle L. Tom Perry, "We Believe All that God has Revealed" (Liahona, November 2003)

"Rather, it is our hearts and our aspirations and our obedience which definitively determine whether we are counted as one of God’s chosen." Apostle David A. Bednar, "The Tender Mercies of the Lord," (Liahona, May 2005)

"It is said that faith is a gift of God, and so it is; but faith does not come without works; faith does not come without obedience to the commandments of God." (Gospel Doctrine, p. 466), Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith.

"Purpose: To remind class members that salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ and obedience to his commandments. ...
Testify that salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ and obedience to his commandments. Encourage class members to keep the covenants and commandments of the restored gospel."
"Jesus Christ: the Author and Finisher of Our Faith", New Testament Gospel Doctrines Teachers Manual, Lesson 37,

"When we lived with our Heavenly Father, he explained a plan for our progression. We could become like him, an exalted being. The plan required that we be separated from him and come to earth. This separation was necessary to prove whether we would obey our Father's commandments even though we were no longer in his presence. The plan provided that when earth life ended, we would be judged and rewarded according to the degree of our faith and obedience. We would then be assigned to the place for which we had prepared."
Gospel Principles, Chapter 47, Exaltation, (Gospel Principles)
[/FONT]
Etc., etc., etc.

Obedience is an obligatory principle of Mormon Soteriology in the Mormon Gospel.
Any member’s personal opinion to the contrary is at odds with the Church’s teaching on the subject.

 

[Moodshadow]

[FONT=&quot]"We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."[/FONT]-[FONT=&quot] The Third Article in the creed of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It may be that not everyone who calls themselves "Mormons" accepts, believes, and practices this article, but the Church through its leaders does officially claim it as an essential belief.

[/FONT]You are so right, and in order to get that all-important temple recommend (which allows you access to the temple, which allows you the saving ordinances), you have to declare in the recommend interview that you sustain those church leaders. So those who don't believe it would either not receive the saving ordinances or have to lie to receive them.

 

[bexcellent]

[FONT=&quot]"We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."[/FONT]-[FONT=&quot] The Third Article in the creed of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It may be that not everyone who calls themselves "Mormons" accepts, believes, and practices this article, but the Church through its leaders does officially claim it as an essential belief.

The 12th article in the Mormon creed also addresses obedience:
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]"We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law."[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
From an Aaronic Priesthood Manual:
[FONT=&quot]
"Obedience Is a Basic Principle of the Gospel"
"Obedience is one of the most important and basic laws of God."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Discuss what each scripture has to do with obedience. You may want to summarize these points on the chalkboard.[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]1.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Abraham 3:24–25 (We were sent to earth to see if we would obey.)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]2. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]John 14:15 (If we love the Savior, we will keep his commandments.)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]3.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 1 Nephi 3:7 (The Lord will prepare a way for us to obey his commandments.)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]4.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Doctrine and Covenants 82:10 (The Lord will do his part if we obey.)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]5.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Doctrine and Covenants 130:20–21 (All blessings are based on obedience to particular laws.)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]6. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Matthew 7:21 (Only those who obey will live with Heavenly Father.)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Have a young man quote the third article of faith: “We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Testify that obedience is a basic principle of the gospel. If we have faith in Jesus Christ, we will keep his commandments and become like him. Only by being obedient can we return to our Heavenly Father’s presence."- from the Aaronic Priesthood Manual 1, Lesson 34, 'Obedience'. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot](LDS.org - Support Materials Chapter - Obedience)[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

"Let us be distinctive as a people because of our obedience to God’s laws."Apostle Ezra Taft Benson, A Principle with a Promise" (Ensign, May 1983)

"Faith requires an attitude of exact obedience, even in the small, simple things. ... As patterns of obedience develop, the specific blessings associated with obedience are realized and belief emerges. Desire, hope, and belief are forms of faith, but faith as a principle of power comes from a consistent pattern of obedient behavior and attitudes." Seventy Kevin W. Pearson, "Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ". (Ensign, May 2009)

"My brothers and sisters, in this marvelous dispensation of the fulness of times, as we journey through mortality and face the trials and challenges of the future, may we remember the examples of these models to follow which I have referred to this morning. May we have the unfeigned humility of John the Baptist, the unquestioning obedience of Abraham, the unlimited patience of Job, the unwavering faith of Noah, the undeviating loyalty of Ruth, the unflagging determination of Nephi, the undaunted courage of the Prophet Joseph Smith, and the unfailing optimism of President Hinckley."President Thomas S. Monson, "Models to Follow" (Ensign, November 2002)

"God’s eternal blessings are contingent upon our obedience and adherence to the word of the Lord that is revealed to us through His holy prophets." Apostle L. Tom Perry, "We Believe All that God has Revealed" (Liahona, November 2003)

"Rather, it is our hearts and our aspirations and our obedience which definitively determine whether we are counted as one of God’s chosen." Apostle David A. Bednar, "The Tender Mercies of the Lord," (Liahona, May 2005)

"It is said that faith is a gift of God, and so it is; but faith does not come without works; faith does not come without obedience to the commandments of God." (Gospel Doctrine, p. 466), Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith.

"Purpose: To remind class members that salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ and obedience to his commandments. ...
Testify that salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ and obedience to his commandments. Encourage class members to keep the covenants and commandments of the restored gospel."
"Jesus Christ: the Author and Finisher of Our Faith", New Testament Gospel Doctrines Teachers Manual, Lesson 37,

"When we lived with our Heavenly Father, he explained a plan for our progression. We could become like him, an exalted being. The plan required that we be separated from him and come to earth. This separation was necessary to prove whether we would obey our Father's commandments even though we were no longer in his presence. The plan provided that when earth life ended, we would be judged and rewarded according to the degree of our faith and obedience. We would then be assigned to the place for which we had prepared."
Gospel Principles, Chapter 47, Exaltation, (Gospel Principles)
[/FONT]
Etc., etc., etc.

Obedience is an obligatory principle of Mormon Soteriology in the Mormon Gospel.
Any member’s personal opinion to the contrary is at odds with the Church’s teaching on the subject.

From the Bible:

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

5By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Romans 2:

3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,



Matt. 7: 21 (3 Ne. 14: 21) Not every one . . . but he that doeth the will. Matt. 7: 24 (3 Ne. 14: 24) heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth. Matt. 8: 27 (Mark 4: 41; Luke 8: 25) winds and the sea obey him. Matt. 26: 39 not as I will, but as thou wilt. Mark 1: 27 unclean spirits . . . do obey him. Luke 11: 28 blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. John 7: 17 If any man will do his will, he shall know. John 8: 29 I do always those things that please him. John 15: 10 (1 Jn. 2: 5) keep my commandments . . . abide in my love. Acts 5: 29 obey God rather than men. Acts 7: 39 To whom our fathers would not obey. Rom. 1: 5 (Rom. 16: 26) obedience to the faith among all nations. Rom. 2: 8 them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth. Rom. 5: 19 by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom. 6: 16 his servants ye are to whom ye obey. 1 Cor. 14: 34 commanded to be under obedience. 2 Cor. 7: 15 he remembereth the obedience of you all. 2 Cor. 10: 5 bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience. Gal. 3: 1 (Gal. 5: 7) that ye should not obey the truth. Eph. 6: 1 (Col. 3: 20) Children, obey your parents. 2 Thes. 1: 8 vengeance on them that . . . obey not the gospel. Titus 2: 5 obedient to their own husbands. Titus 2: 9 Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters. Titus 3: 1 Put them in mind . . . to obey magistrates. Heb. 5: 8 learned he obedience by the things which he suffered. Heb. 11: 8 By faith Abraham, when he was called . . . obeyed. Heb. 13: 17 Obey them that have the rule over you. James 3: 3 bits in the horses’ mouths, that they may obey. 1 Pet. 1: 2 Elect . . . unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood. 1 Pet. 1: 14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves. 1 Pet. 3: 1 husbands . . . if any obey not the word. 1 Pet. 3: 6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham. 1 Pet. 4: 17

etc.