A riddle

[Zechariah]

You still don't get it, do you? REGARDLESS of the context of the rest of it, those six little words totally change it by making salvation partially dependent upon the works of the individual.

You still don't get it. The, "rest of it," IS the context of, "after all we can do." Again, ignore context and you forsake understanding. Shoot, Mood, ignore context and you may just as well also claim the scriptures tell us to do evil too, because the four little words, "let us do evil," are found therein.

In Mormonism ONLY "...after all that we can do" can salvation be achieved. You know this is the truth, Zech, and no amount of hedging will change it.

Actually, in, "Mormonism," we are saved by the grace of God, through our faith in Jesus Christ. Your inability to understand Nephi will never change that doctrinal truth.

And it's not like the words of Brigham Young or Joseph Smith that don't appear in the scriptures - the ones you've been told don't matter any more because they were "speaking as a man."

I've never been told the words of any of God's prophets don't matter. I've also never been told that every word a prophet of God utters is scripture either.

Since it's in your quad, you are bound by it and cannot disavow it. There's no out this time.

I'm not the one that needs an out.

And yes, since it's, "in my quad," and I am bound by it, I do not disavow it. Any of it. So, again, faith is not a passive feel good belief. True and saving faith is having sufficient trust in Christ to not only believe He is our Savior, but to accept Him as our Savior and obey and serve Him in all things He commands of us.

After all:

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[BarryK]

Originally Posted by Zechariah

The length of time someone, "has been around the block with Mormonism," is certainly no guarantee they have a correct understanding of LDS theology, doctrine, or scripture
​

.

Well Zech, with that being the case, please contribute to the "unanswered recurring questio "thread. as it directly addresses these topics.

I look foward to you providing some clairity to those of us who are seeking clear understanding

and we are still continueing to wait

 

[Ran77]

The topic, for those of us who have become mired in other side discussions, relates to the necessity of works in Mormonism for salvation (which has been defined in a number of ways). The problem that seems to have developed is that orthodox Christians crisply define salvation in terms used in the Bible itself as being by God's grace through faith alone, where as the Mormon definition is fuzzy, at best, in its attempts to justify works in some manner as necessary,

Because you have described the orthodox Christians to crisply have defined salvation as being through faith alone - does that mean there is no expectation on the part of Christians to do what God commands? Are those who are converted unto Christ exempt from doing good works?

 

[Ran77]

The topic, for those of us who have become mired in other side discussions, relates to the necessity of works in Mormonism for salvation (which has been defined in a number of ways). The problem that seems to have developed is that orthodox Christians crisply define salvation in terms used in the Bible itself as being by God's grace through faith alone, where as the Mormon definition is fuzzy, at best, in its attempts to justify works in some manner as necessary,

Are there consequences for not obeying the commandments? If God has told us to do something and we don't, what is the result?

 

[gort]

indeed

Yes, indeed. Doing the best you can and then Jesus makes up the rest certainly does'nt smack of works at all...

 

[BarryK]

Yes, indeed. Doing the best you can and then Jesus makes up the rest certainly does'nt smack of works at all...

what so many people dont seem to get is this:
If there were anything that we could do, it would make the Cross unnecessary. If the cross were unnecessary, that would make Jesus a fool, as only a fool wold go thru that if the did not have to. If Jesus were a fool, that would mean either one of two things. a) he is just like us, and not really God, as God is no fool, or b) God is a fool, therefore just like us, and not much of God at all

but the again, I have heard it said "as man is, God once was, as God is , man may become"

kinda throws a new perspective on things dont it?

 

[bexcellent]

what so many people dont seem to get is this:
If there were anything that we could do, it would make the Cross unnecessary. If the cross were unnecessary, that would make Jesus a fool, as only a fool wold go thru that if the did not have to. If Jesus were a fool, that would mean either one of two things. a) he is just like us, and not really God, as God is no fool, or b) God is a fool, therefore just like us, and not much of God at all

but the again, I have heard it said "as man is, God once was, as God is , man may become"

kinda throws a new perspective on things dont it?

Of course you can believe what you want, but I find it comforting to consider the possibility that my Heavenly Father may have gone through what I have. I find that kind of God to be much more like something I can relate to and believe in than one who is something we can't even really figure out and who makes people to burn them forever if they don't do what He likes.

Also, I don't see how it makes sense for people to say they have faith in Jesus and then not do what He asks of us or seek to be like Him.

 

[Zechariah]

what so many people dont seem to get is this:
If there were anything that we could do, it would make the Cross unnecessary. If the cross were unnecessary, that would make Jesus a fool, as only a fool wold go thru that if the did not have to. If Jesus were a fool, that would mean either one of two things. a) he is just like us, and not really God, as God is no fool, or b) God is a fool, therefore just like us, and not much of God at all

Since the atonement was and is 100% necessary for our salvation, and since we would be lost without Jesus Christ, LDS don't need to speculate about God being a fool.

but the again, I have heard it said "as man is, God once was, as God is , man may become"

kinda throws a new perspective on things dont it?

Yes, an enlightening one.

 

[Moodshadow]

Since the atonement was and is 100% necessary for our salvation, and since we would be lost without Jesus Christ, LDS don't need to speculate about God being a fool.

C'mon, Zech. You know that's not what Barry meant.

Yes, an enlightening one.

Mormons are the only ones thus "enlightened." The rest of us poor ignoramuses will just have to continue going around knowing that we can never presume to be worthy of being equal to the God Who created us, nor indeed to the Savior Who redeemed us.

 

[Ran77]

Mormons are the only ones thus "enlightened." The rest of us poor ignoramuses will just have to continue going around knowing that we can never presume to be worthy of being equal to the God Who created us, nor indeed to the Savior Who redeemed us.

Since the LDS do not believe they are the equal of God, is there a reason to post this statement? If it doesn't apply to non-LDS Christians and it doesn't apply to LDS, what is the purpose of this?

 

[gort]

what so many people dont seem to get is this:
If there were anything that we could do, it would make the Cross unnecessary.

I'm sure mormons view the cross as necessary as to making the atonement possible. And with the atonement, then progression is possible. Emphasis is placed more on progression than on the forgiveness of sin. This is evidential from so many posts.

For you and I, emphasis is on forgiveness of sin. We depend on Jesus as propitiation for our sin 100%. THey do not have that 100% dependency. This too is evidenced when the saying goes something like, ...and Jesus makes up the rest.

You and I cannot do our best and expect that to be claimed as righteousness and then Jesus makes up the rest. We would know right off that such would be a claim to works to be acceptable before God in addition to what Jesus accomplished at Calvary. Of course, works are termed as commandments and obedience to such commandments give entitlement to the celestial kingdom where God supposedly dwells. But again, membership in the mormon church, temple worthiness, and all the other dressings are simply things that one must do in addition to what Jesus did at Calvary to go to heaven. So you can see that 100% reliance on Jesus is not to be found in mormonism any way you cut it.

 

[gort]

Also, I don't see how it makes sense for people to say they have faith in Jesus and then not do what He asks of us or seek to be like Him.

You should study the greek word pistis which is faith in the english language.

You should also study what it means to be reborn. The scriptures say:

1Jn 3:9 Everyone who has been born of God does not commit sin, because His seed remains in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

If those who are born of God cannot commit sin, don't you think that such do what they are asked and also seek to be like Him?

 

[Moodshadow]

Since the LDS do not believe they are the equal of God, is there a reason to post this statement? If it doesn't apply to non-LDS Christians and it doesn't apply to LDS, what is the purpose of this?

No, Mormons don't believe they are equal to God in this life. But they do believe, as you very well know, that they can, through their obedience to the laws and ordinances to the [LDS] gospel, achieve godhood in the hereafter, just as God did to achieve his own godhood.

 

[Ran77]

No, Mormons don't believe they are equal to God in this life. But they do believe, as you very well know, that they can, through their obedience to the laws and ordinances to the [LDS] gospel, achieve godhood in the hereafter, just as God did to achieve his own godhood.

This is different from your original statement. It has a different meaning than your original statement. The first statement did not reflect LDS belief. And had no relevance to the topic. Once again, I have to ask what was the purpose of making a statement that neither side believes?

 

[BarryK]

Originally Posted by Zechariah

The length of time someone, "has been around the block with Mormonism," is certainly no guarantee they have a correct understanding of LDS theology, doctrine, or scripture.
​

Well Zech, with that being the case, please contribute to the "unanswered recurring questio "thread. as it directly addresses these topics.

I look foward to you providing some clairity to those of us who are seeking clear understanding

Originally Posted by Zechariah

The length of time someone, "has been around the block with Mormonism," is certainly no guarantee they have a correct understanding of LDS theology, doctrine, or scripture.
​

Well Zech, with that being the case, please contribute to the "unanswered recurring questio "thread. as it directly addresses these topics.

I look foward to you providing some clairity to those of us who are seeking clear understanding

and we are still continueing to wait

Since the atonement was and is 100% necessary for our salvation, and since we would be lost without Jesus Christ, LDS don't need to speculate about God being a fool.



Yes, an enlightening one.

and we are still waiting for you to enlighten us on the correct understanding of L.D.S theology, specificaly Official Mormon Doctrine

Are you avoiding this because your are unwilling, or is it because you are unable to priovide us with what you believe your church teaches?

 

[MamaZ]

What qualifier does one need to be saved?

 

[Moodshadow]

This is different from your original statement. It has a different meaning than your original statement. The first statement did not reflect LDS belief. And had no relevance to the topic. Once again, I have to ask what was the purpose of making a statement that neither side believes?

It is my belief that there are others who would agree with what I said. That you might not is, of course, your privilege.

 

[Ran77]

It is my belief that there are others who would agree with what I said. That you might not is, of course, your privilege.

There are many people that agree with Charles Manson. That doesn't make it right. And it doesn't change that your first statement was false. And it doesn't explain why you included a statement that didn't represent the beliefs of anyone involved in this discussion.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Because you have described the orthodox Christians to crisply have defined salvation as being through faith alone - does that mean there is no expectation on the part of Christians to do what God commands? Are those who are converted unto Christ exempt from doing good works?

Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

God is the author and finisher of the Christan's works.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Are there consequences for not obeying the commandments? If God has told us to do something and we don't, what is the result?

Please clarify your question for me. Which commandments are you speaking of?