A riddle

[BarryK]

The length of time someone, "has been around the block with Mormonism," is certainly no guarantee they have a correct understanding of LDS theology, doctrine, or scripture.
.

Well Zech, with that being the case, please contribute to the "unanswered recurring questio "thread. as it directly addresses these topics.

I look foward to you providing some clairity to those of us who are seeking clear understanding

 

[Moodshadow]

Do you have a problem with or, that is, do you think that followers of Christ should NOT do everything they can to follow Him?

Of course I have no problem with following Christ. But "...after all that we can do" connotes a lot more than that, and we both know it. The "all" that it refers to would include keeping commandments and participating in ordinances that are peculiar to Mormonism - i.e., the Word of Wisdom, "eternal" marriage, sealings and other priesthood ordinances. As you well know, Mormonism teaches that without these things there is no exaltation. It's the difference of night and day, if you're honest.

 

[Moodshadow]

The length of time someone, "has been around the block with Mormonism," is certainly no guarantee they have a correct understanding of LDS theology, doctrine, or scripture. Of course you are correct about that. But, if you want to use that criteria to gauge such things, then I guess I should inform you that Ol' Zech was baptized into the Church nearly 50 years ago.

Good. Then you should have the maturity and experience and insight and wisdom to know that the simple phrase "...after all that we can do," which was added by Joseph Smith to the concept introduced in the New Testament, not only contradicts that concept but in fact almost blasphemously presumes that there could possibly BE anything we could do to assist Jesus Christ in effecting our salvation! He doesn't need our help; all he requires is our repentance and faith and trust in Him. He does the rest. It's the most beautiful thing EVER!

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. Ephesians 2:8

 

[Ran77]

The length of time someone, "has been around the block with Mormonism," is certainly no guarantee they have a correct understanding of LDS theology, doctrine, or scripture. But, if you want to use that criteria to gauge such things, then I guess I should inform you that Ol' Zech was baptized into the Church nearly 50 years ago.

Gee, you don't sound that old.

 

[Zechariah]

Good. Then you should have the maturity and experience and insight and wisdom to know that the simple phrase "...after all that we can do," which was added by Joseph Smith to the concept introduced in the New Testament, not only contradicts that concept but in fact almost blasphemously presumes that there could possibly BE anything we could do to assist Jesus Christ in effecting our salvation! He doesn't need our help; all he requires is our repentance and faith and trust in Him. He does the rest. It's the most beautiful thing EVER!

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. Ephesians 2:8

I don't need you to tell me what I should have or what I should know. I trust in Christ for that. What I do know is that it is only in and through the grace of God that we are saved, and it is that saving grace that only comes through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Faith is not a passive feel good belief, but, as a real and living trust in Christ, it's manifest by obedience and service to Christ in all things. It is that faith which brings salvation in the kingdom of God, the greatest of all the gifts of God, there being none greater. A gift that only comes in and through the atoning blood of Christ.

 

[Zechariah]

Gee, you don't sound that old.

I know, but what can I say? Just blame my youthful sound on my lack of maturity, experience, insight and wisdom.

 

[Moodshadow]

I don't need you to tell me what I should have or what I should know. I trust in Christ for that. What I do know is that it is only in and through the grace of God that we are saved, and it is that saving grace that only comes through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Faith is not a passive feel good belief, but, as a real and living trust in Christ, it's manifest by obedience and service to Christ in all things. It is that faith which brings salvation in the kingdom of God, the greatest of all the gifts of God, there being none greater. A gift that only comes in and through the atoning blood of Christ.

Yes, you have spoken truth. But (as you know) in Mormonism it's only part of the truth. What you left out was that all-important qualifier "...after all that we can do." Therein, Zech, lies the real issue at hand. It is so often oh-so-conveniently omitted in discussions like these between a Mormon and a non-Mormon, in the hope that the non will somehow think "Hey, they believe the same thing we do!" But it just isn't so, no matter how much you say it is. Those six little words change everything about it.

 

[Zechariah]

Yes, you have spoken truth.

Yes, I have spoken truth. The truth which comes from holy scripture.

But (as you know) in Mormonism it's only part of the truth. What you left out was that all-important qualifier "...after all that we can do." Therein, Zech, lies the real issue at hand. It is so often oh-so-conveniently omitted in discussions like these between a Mormon and a non-Mormon, in the hope that the non will somehow think "Hey, they believe the same thing we do!" But it just isn't so, no matter how much you say it is. Those six little words change everything about it.

Actually, the real issue at hand, is what you left out, which is everything except those six little words. Ignore context Mood, and you forsake understanding.

 

[Moodshadow]

Actually, the real issue at hand, is what you left out, which is everything except those six little words. Ignore context Mood, and you forsake understanding.

You still don't get it, do you? REGARDLESS of the context of the rest of it, those six little words totally change it by making salvation partially dependent upon the works of the individual. In Mormonism ONLY "...after all that we can do" can salvation be achieved. You know this is the truth, Zech, and no amount of hedging will change it. And it's not like the words of Brigham Young or Joseph Smith that don't appear in the scriptures - the ones you've been told don't matter any more because they were "speaking as a man." Since it's in your quad, you are bound by it and cannot disavow it. There's no out this time.

 

[Ran77]

You still don't get it, do you? REGARDLESS of the context of the rest of it, those six little words totally change it by making salvation partially dependent upon the works of the individual. In Mormonism ONLY "...after all that we can do" can salvation be achieved. You know this is the truth, Zech, and no amount of hedging will change it. And it's not like the words of Brigham Young or Joseph Smith that don't appear in the scriptures - the ones you've been told don't matter any more because they were "speaking as a man." Since it's in your quad, you are bound by it and cannot disavow it. There's no out this time.

This is untrue.

You previously posted the following verse and put it at odds with our Article of Faith:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. Ephesians 2:8


In LDS doctrine, these two scriptures work together. They are not mutually exclusive to the LDS. What "after all we can do" basically means is that God expects us to do the best we can and then He will make up the rest. It's a very simple message.

1. God expects us to try our best.

2. God will make up for what we cannot do ourselves.

If this article of faith is wrong in any way it will need to be shown that one of these two elements is false. Does non-LDS Christianity believe that we do not need to do our best? Or do the believe that God will not do for us what we cannot do for ourselves?

 

[Moodshadow]

This is untrue.

You previously posted the following verse and put it at odds with our Article of Faith: Would you please post the number of my post which refers to that Article of Faith?
What "after all we can do" basically means is that God expects us to do the best we can and then He will make up the rest. But it means much more than that in Mormonism. It also means that you are expected to keep the uniquely Mormon commandments (Word of Wisdom, temple marriage, etc., among them) and participate in the uniquely Mormon ordinances (endowments, priesthood ordinations, sealings, proxy baptisms, etc.). (I've mentioned this before, in case you hadn't noticed.) And if you fail to do these things, you are in fact not doing all that you can do, and so you will pretty much lose your chance at exaltation. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Ran77]

This is untrue.

You previously posted the following verse and put it at odds with our Article of Faith: Would you please post the number of my post which refers to that Article of Faith?
What "after all we can do" basically means is that God expects us to do the best we can and then He will make up the rest. But it means much more than that in Mormonism. It also means that you are expected to keep the uniquely Mormon commandments (Word of Wisdom, temple marriage, etc., among them) and participate in the uniquely Mormon ordinances (endowments, priesthood ordinations, sealings, proxy baptisms, etc.). (I've mentioned this before, in case you hadn't noticed.) And if you fail to do these things, you are in fact not doing all that you can do, and so you will pretty much lose your chance at exaltation. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

There is nothing here that refutes the two points I made. If those points cannot be addressed then there is no case against this doctrine. Do non-LDS Christians believe in doing the best they can - or do they not?



You also posted:

"I've mentioned this before, in case you hadn't noticed."


Once again, I am not the topic here. There is no need to make things personal. There is no need to attack my ability to observe and notice what has been posted. Why not stick to the topic and leave any comment about me out of it?

 

[gort]

I don't think anyone has better described a works based system of salvation than the lds members here.

 

[Moodshadow]

There is nothing here that refutes the two points I made. Nor did you even come anywhere near answering the question I posed. If those points cannot be addressed then there is no case against this doctrine. Do non-LDS Christians believe in doing the best they can - or do they not? Christians believe in the words of Jesus Christ and those who taught His gospel as recorded in the Holy Bible. Plain and precious, if you will - with no need for any latter-day amplification/revision by self-appointed "prophets."

You also posted:

"I've mentioned this before, in case you hadn't noticed."

Once again, I am not the topic here. There is no need to make things personal. There is no need to attack my ability to observe and notice what has been posted. Why not stick to the topic and leave any comment about me out of it?

My comment was not so much about you personally as it was to mention an omission on your part. You likewise mentioned my failure to answer your question, which I did in this post. Now it would be greatly appreciated if you would return the courtesy and answer mine, and thanks in advance for doing it.

 

[Ran77]

My comment was not so much about you personally as it was to mention an omission on your part.

Which is unimportant to the topic. So much, or not so much, why not stick to the topic and leave comments about people out of the discussion.

 

[BarryK]

I don't think anyone has better described a works based system of salvation than the lds members here.

indeed

 

[Moodshadow]

Which is unimportant to the topic. So much, or not so much, why not stick to the topic and leave comments about people out of the discussion.

My comment was not so much about you personally as it was to mention an omission on your part. You likewise mentioned my failure to answer your question, which I did in [that] post. Now it would be greatly appreciated if you would return the courtesy and answer mine, and thanks in advance for doing it.

 

[Ran77]

My comment was not so much about you personally as it was to mention an omission on your part. You likewise mentioned my failure to answer your question, which I did in [that] post. Now it would be greatly appreciated if you would return the courtesy and answer mine, and thanks in advance for doing it.

Once again, I am not the topic here. My actions are not the topic here. If you cannot post something about the topic itself I will kindly ask you to not post anything at all to me.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The topic, for those of us who have become mired in other side discussions, relates to the necessity of works in Mormonism for salvation (which has been defined in a number of ways). The problem that seems to have developed is that orthodox Christians crisply define salvation in terms used in the Bible itself as being by God's grace through faith alone, where as the Mormon definition is fuzzy, at best, in its attempts to justify works in some manner as necessary,

 

[BarryK]

The topic, for those of us who have become mired in other side discussions, relates to the necessity of works in Mormonism for salvation (which has been defined in a number of ways). The problem that seems to have developed is that orthodox Christians crisply define salvation in terms used in the Bible itself as being by God's grace through faith alone, where as the Mormon definition is fuzzy, at best, in its attempts to justify works in some manner as necessary,

I agree, and this brings us back to the question of "OMD", which is elusive at best.

how about some clear, consice, L.D.S. definitons of "grace", "faith" and "salvation", and Biblical examples ( in the proper context) to back them up?