A riddle

[J. T. Kirk]

Lucifer was thrown from heaven for it
Adam and Eve were thrown from the Garden of Eden for it
The Antichrist will claim it
The New age movement, Eastern religions and Mormonism all teach it
What is it?

Deification of man. But, which Eastern religion teaches that man can be deified or is even the goal of man?

 

[Moodshadow]

Deification of man. But, which Eastern religion teaches that man can be deified or is even the goal of man?

With all due respect, I fail to see why this thread is even here on this LDS forum.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I was also puzzled about the placement of this thread. I do not know of any major Eastern religion that believes in a God, much less that one can become God. Hinduism, for example, teaches as its goal a state of absolute nothingness called Nirvana.

 

[BarryK]

I was also puzzled about the placement of this thread. I do not know of any major Eastern religion that believes in a God, much less that one can become God. Hinduism, for example, teaches as its goal a state of absolute nothingness called Nirvana.

sure but the methodology is the same, all these unchristian religious systems all teach one form or another of eternal progression and self exhaltation bassed on the works that you do while stomping about on this earth

 

[Zechariah]

sure but the methodology is the same, all these unchristian religious systems all teach one form or another of eternal progression and self exhaltation bassed on the works that you do while stomping about on this earth

There is no self exaltation in LDS theology. It is God who exalts man.

 

[Moodshadow]

There is no self exaltation in LDS theology. It is God who exalts man.

"...after all that we can do." 2 Nephi 25:23

 

[Zechariah]

"...after all that we can do." 2 Nephi 25:23

Don't ignore context.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7308425-6/#post49564751





.

 

[Moodshadow]

Don't ignore context.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7308425-6/#post49564751

.

It's kinda hard to ignore "...after all that we can do," and there isn't much in the way of interpretation that could be rendered on it, either. It absolutely qualifies - i.e. puts conditions on (man-made ones, at that) - the Christian teaching that we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[BarryK]

There is no self exaltation in LDS theology. It is God who exalts man.

actually we are called to exalt him

Ex 15:2 -The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.

Ps 34:3 - O magnify the LORD with me, and let us exalt his name together. Ps 99:5Exalt ye the LORD our God, and worship at his footstool; for he is holy.

Ps 99:9 - Exalt the LORD our God, and worship at his holy hill; for the LORD our God is holy.

Ps 107:32 -Let them exalt him also in the congregation of the people, and praise him in the assembly of the elders.

Ps 118:28 -Thou art my God, and I will praise thee: thou art my God, I will exalt thee. Isa 25:1 - O LORD, thou art my God; I will exalt thee, I will praise thy name; for thou hast done wonderful things; thy counsels of old are faithfulness and truth. Ho 11:7 -And my people are bent to backsliding from me: though they called them to the most High, none at all would exalt him.

These are but a few of the many where we are to exalt him, but in all fairness, there is one lone single solitary verse where The Lord will exalt man


1Pe 5:6 -Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:


the two key words here are "Humble" and "may".
be humble, and he may exalt you, not "he WILL exalt you
it is a possibility, not a promise. most certainaly not anything to build a doctrine on, as doing so would not be humble, thus excluding yourself from the possibility of being exalted

 

[BarryK]

It's kinda hard to ignore "...after all that we can do," and there isn't much in the way of interpretation that could be rendered on it, either. It absolutely qualifies - i.e. puts conditions on (man-made ones, at that) - the Christian teaching that we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ.

indeed, how many times have the L.D.S. overlooked this

Ephesians 2:4-10 (KJV)
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[bexcellent]

It's kinda hard to ignore "...after all that we can do," and there isn't much in the way of interpretation that could be rendered on it, either. It absolutely qualifies - i.e. puts conditions on (man-made ones, at that) - the Christian teaching that we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ.

Do you have a problem with or, that is, do you think that followers of Christ should NOT do everything they can to follow Him?

 

[BarryK]

Originally Posted by Moodshadow

It's kinda hard to ignore "...after all that we can do," and there isn't much in the way of interpretation that could be rendered on it, either. It absolutely qualifies - i.e. puts conditions on (man-made ones, at that) - the Christian teaching that we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ
​

Do you have a problem with or, that is, do you think that followers of Christ should NOT do everything they can to follow Him?

the "problem" here is that there is NOTHING we can do. but the L.D.S. continue to insist that there are particular thinhgs that we have to do. the "problem" here is that the L.D.S. are blatently copntradicting the scripture, and have yet to offer any evidence that it is somehow not "correctly translated"

If there were somthing that we could do, the cross would have been totally unnecessary.

again, how many times has this been overlooked...


Ephesians 2:4-10 (KJV)
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[Zechariah]

It's kinda hard to ignore "...after all that we can do," and there isn't much in the way of interpretation that could be rendered on it, either. It absolutely qualifies - i.e. puts conditions on (man-made ones, at that) - the Christian teaching that we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ.

Ignoring everything else Nephi is saying, except, "after all we can do," is sorely and grievously ignoring context.

 

[Zechariah]

It's kinda hard to ignore "...after all that we can do," and there isn't much in the way of interpretation that could be rendered on it, either.

That's what happens when you focus in on only one phrase and ignore it's context. Again, from my link:

Nephi is saying that even though they are under the law of Moses, salvation comes only through Christ. He's saying that even after all they can do in being obedient to the commandments of God under the law, they are still saved only in and through the grace of God. Nephi knew it was not the law itself that saved them. It was Christ. But it was because of their faith in Christ that they kept the commandments in obeying the law God had given them.

We are no longer under the Law of Moses, but the same thing applies to us. Can a man be saved without faith in Christ? Without faith in Christ, is any other principle, law, or ordinance of the gospel, past, present, or future, sufficient to save him? Is he who goes through the motions of obeying God going to be saved if he has not faith in Christ? Is going through the, "check list" (as some critics here like to call it), going to save anyone if they are without faith in Christ? The answer is an unequivocal no, because we are saved by grace through faith.

How do we know this? Simple. Besides the scriptures making it very clear, there is no man who was, is, or yet will be, perfect in atoning works, save one. That one was, and is, Jesus Christ, which is why, even after all we can do, only he can save us.

We are saved by grace through our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. This is the doctrine. Yet how is that faith manifested? By doing nothing more than saying we believe? No. Even the devils also believe, and tremble. Our faith is manifested by our obedience to God, and to Christ as our Savior, in doing the works they command.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also ( James 2: 26 ).




So here's the chapter link: 2 Ne. 25 Go for it.



.

 

[Moodshadow]

That's what happens when you focus in on only one phrase and ignore it's context. I beg to differ. It's [sic] context is unchanging, regardless of what the rest of the sentence/scripture says and regardless of what the rest of the sentence/scripture means.

Again, from my link:

Nephi is saying that even though they are under the law of Moses, salvation comes only through Christ. He's saying that even after all they can do in being obedient to the commandments of God under the law, they are still saved only in and through the grace of God. Nephi knew it was not the law itself that saved them. It was Christ. But it was because of their faith in Christ that they kept the commandments in obeying the law God had given them.

We are no longer under the Law of Moses, but the same thing applies to us. Can a man be saved without faith in Christ? Without faith in Christ, is any other principle, law, or ordinance of the gospel, past, present, or future, sufficient to save him? Is he who goes through the motions of obeying God going to be saved if he has not faith in Christ? Is going through the, "check list" (as some critics here like to call it), going to save anyone if they are without faith in Christ? The answer is an unequivocal no, because we are saved by grace through faith.

How do we know this? Simple. Besides the scriptures making it very clear, there is no man who was, is, or yet will be, perfect in atoning works, save one. That one was, and is, Jesus Christ, which is why, even after all we can do, only he can save us.

We are saved by grace through our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. This is the doctrine. Yet how is that faith manifested? By doing nothing more than saying we believe? No. Even the devils also believe, and tremble. Our faith is manifested by our obedience to God, and to Christ as our Savior, in doing the works they command.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also ( James 2: 26 ).

No. And again I say NO. "...after all that we can do" puts conditions on the salvation made possible through Jesus Christ, and it is not a condition that was put there by Jesus Christ Himself. It is for that reason that Christians summarily reject it. None of your explanations change that one tiny bit.

So here's the chapter link: 2 Ne. 25 Go for it. And again I say NO.

 

[Zechariah]

I beg to differ. It's [sic] context is unchanging, regardless of what the rest of the sentence/scripture says and regardless of what the rest of the sentence/scripture means.

What???

Its context is unchanging, regardless of what the rest of the sentence/scripture says and regardless of what the rest of the sentence/scripture means???



A little FYI here for ya:

context:

the parts of a written or spoken statement that precede or follow a specific word or passage, usually influencing its meaning or effect

context:

discourse that surrounds a language unit and helps to determine its interpretation

context:

the text in which a word or passage appears and which helps ascertain its meaning; the surroundings, circumstances, environment, background or settings which determine, specify, or clarify the meaning of an event

 

[intrepid]

We are saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone. Why is that a particularly difficult concept? You can't out-love God no matter what you do.

Peace and Love

 

[Moodshadow]

It's almost amusing that you think I didn't know the meaning of the word "context." Should I thank you for all your trouble, all that cutting and pasting in order to educate me?

Ol' Moodshadow has been around the block with Mormonism, maybe even a tad longer than you have. At any rate, I know what "...after all that we can do" means to Mormons. And (are you sitting down?) I even know what it means to non-Mormons. And (brace yourself, now) I even know what the rest of the passage of scripture you quoted means, and I understand it in its intended context. There is just no other way to interpret it that would be halfway credible to anyone familiar with Christian doctrine. It's just not a good idea to put qualifiers on real (meaning Biblical) scripture. When it says in Ephesians (2:8), "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God," it means exactly that and only that. Nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't NEED qualifiers. No "...after all that we can do," which is 100% man-made stuff. Why would you WANT man-made qualifiers added to it?

 

[Zechariah]

It's almost amusing that you think I didn't know the meaning of the word "context."

They're your own words:

I beg to differ. It's [sic] context is unchanging, regardless of what the rest of the sentence/scripture says and regardless of what the rest of the sentence/scripture means.

Should I thank you for all your trouble, all that cutting and pasting in order to educate me?

No need.

Ol' Moodshadow has been around the block with Mormonism, maybe even a tad longer than you have. At any rate, I know what "...after all that we can do" means to Mormons. And (are you sitting down?) I even know what it means to non-Mormons. And (brace yourself, now) I even know what the rest of the passage of scripture you quoted means, and I understand it in its intended context. There is just no other way to interpret it that would be halfway credible to anyone familiar with Christian doctrine. It's just not a good idea to put qualifiers on real (meaning Biblical) scripture. When it says in Ephesians (2:8), "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God," it means exactly that and only that. Nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't NEED qualifiers. No "...after all that we can do," which is 100% man-made stuff. Why would you WANT man-made qualifiers added to it?

The length of time someone, "has been around the block with Mormonism," is certainly no guarantee they have a correct understanding of LDS theology, doctrine, or scripture. But, if you want to use that criteria to gauge such things, then I guess I should inform you that Ol' Zech was baptized into the Church nearly 50 years ago.

 

[BarryK]

indeed, how many times have the L.D.S. overlooked this

Ephesians 2:4-10 (KJV)
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

the "problem" here is that there is NOTHING we can do. but the L.D.S. continue to insist that there are particular thinhgs that we have to do. the "problem" here is that the L.D.S. are blatently copntradicting the scripture, and have yet to offer any evidence that it is somehow not "correctly translated"

If there were somthing that we could do, the cross would have been totally unnecessary.

again, how many times has this been overlooked...


Ephesians 2:4-10 (KJV)
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

It's almost amusing that you think I didn't know the meaning of the word "context." Should I thank you for all your trouble, all that cutting and pasting in order to educate me?

Ol' Moodshadow has been around the block with Mormonism, maybe even a tad longer than you have. At any rate, I know what "...after all that we can do" means to Mormons. And (are you sitting down?) I even know what it means to non-Mormons. And (brace yourself, now) I even know what the rest of the passage of scripture you quoted means, and I understand it in its intended context. There is just no other way to interpret it that would be halfway credible to anyone familiar with Christian doctrine. It's just not a good idea to put qualifiers on real (meaning Biblical) scripture. When it says in Ephesians (2:8), "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God," it means exactly that and only that. Nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't NEED qualifiers. No "...after all that we can do," which is 100% man-made stuff. Why would you WANT man-made qualifiers added to it?

What part of this dont the L.D.S. understand?