A response to the "MJ only" thread

visionary said:

and I thought you handled it rather well.

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Well thanks, something like that just amuses me though.
Especially when it gets personal, the more personal the better.

I had a neighbor once who did really bad things to me, he made up lies, tried to get the home owners association to take my house.

I cut and weedeated his yard every week for over a year before he caught me doing it when he got off early from work one day.

They are just irresistible, that somebody would despise me so much, it's a turn on. They find themselves wooed after that.

Avodat said:

So no one was interested in complaining about the real problem: anti-semitism being posted on our forum. I pointed to it and asked how you guys would deal with it. Nil response as far as I can see! Yet those posts are the ones we should be rooting out!

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There is nobody more tolerant than me and I doubt I will ever hit a report button, but obvious frothing hate should not be allowed against any race of people or a people's religion.

That's why I will always take up for Muslims in here or anywhere.

You don't give a holocaust denier a stage to speak, but if you did give him a place to speak, it shouldn't be the very place and people he speaks against.

Hanging around making friends or debating is one thing, and to come into a forum full of people you don't like with an agenda is another.

Its all about intent.

Anti-Semitism shouldn't be allowed, but for me personally, I still welcome all.

I don't think a person can make it too long around me, when they really hate me.

Things git a little strange cause I'm gonna start flirting.

HannibalFlavius said:

Well thanks, something like that just amuses me though.
Especially when it gets personal, the more personal the better.

I had a neighbor once who did really bad things to me, he made up lies, tried to get the home owners association to take my house.

I cut and weedeated his yard every week for over a year before he caught me doing it when he got off early from work one day.

They are just irresistible, that somebody would despise me so much, it's a turn on. They find themselves wooed after that.

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So if I irritate you really bad, will you come to my house and cut down some overgrown bushes??

I guess if people say something long enough, everyone starts to believe it. People are saying that I am creating a crisis where there isn't one, that I'm attacking other members, that I am doing this or that or the other. The truth is, I am asking questions that certain people don't want me to ask.

You think that my remark about the elephant in the room was about certain people. It's not. It's about equal enforcement of the rules. Or rather, a blind eye being turned when some people with other faith group or denominational icons come here to teach and debate. It's about abusing and stretching the definition of Messianic so that it fits just about any believer in Jesus as Messiah. Call me crazy, but I don't agree. I think it's just wrong on so many levels.

I haven't named names or attacked anyone. But I have had my motives brought into question. And I've had my past disagreements revisited in an effort to discredit me personally and to divert attention from the questions I have been asking.

In response, I have forgiven everything and everyone. So no, I don't want to accuse anyone, name names or point fingers. I don't have to.

There have been some members that are asking similar questions and they aren't making it personal either. But I'm not trying to join a group, start a movement, create a crisis or ride on the coattails of others. I just want answers to one thing. Should we all be accountable to the rules? Should they be enforced equally and fairly? That's a pretty simple question.

Anisavta, do you see anyone addressing this question? Everyone wants to make this something other than what it is: Do non-members get to teach and debate here? If so - why?

Some members have openly admitted some pretty astonishing facts: That they do not have to follow the rules. That they can teach and debate here and are not required to display Messianic icons or adhere to precepts described in the Statement of Purpose.

I started out by asking if this situation exists; if the rules were being bent to accommodate a few individuals; if the Site-wide Rules, Forum Rules and Statement of Purpose were only for those not considered 'special'. I ended up getting attacked for asking if what other members were claiming was true.

Anisavta- why don't you just come out and answer my original question? That way, we don't have to 'aim' at anyone. We can just put this issue to rest. Doesn't that seem like the right thing to do?

anisavta said:

Tal - why don't you just come out and name your "elephants". That way we'll all know who you are taking aim at. Obviously, you have a few people in mind.

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ContraMundum said:

Agreed 110%.

There is no actual crisis. This entire thread is really kind of a ripple effect of one person in crisis who posted their concerns.

This whole thing is very easy to navigate, without rule changes, without new forums etc.

Here's how it works:

a) You want to talk strict(er) Torah observance- we have a sub forum for that. Post those issues there.

b) You want to talk about things from a more Church/Judaism perspective- we have a sub forum for that. Post those issues there.

c) You have something more general to discuss. We have a forum for that too. Post those issues there. In fact, we have a few sub forums for special issues. Post those issues there.

d) Expect people of diverse opinions and from other parts of the religious world to pop in on occassion. Rather than be precious about it and choose to get your feelings hurt for not posting what you would have if you started their post, be gracious. If they blatantly break the rules already in place, hit the report button. If they don't but irritate you, hit the ignore button. Do both if you want. Experience has proven that this process works, and likewise it has proven that people of other opinions posting has never caused the sky to fall down or the collapse of civilization. All it does is give us something to talk about for a few pages.

e) The rules in place work just fine. Use them and abide by them and you will soon realize that.

f) Content is more important than icons, which has been pointed out. React to content.

Why is this so hard? Why all the drama?

This is not rocket science, folks. This is an exercise in grace, patience and character building. The rules, like the Torah, are not far from you that you can't keep them! Why not just try to enjoy the forum for what it really is- a lovable bunch of contradictions and characters?

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Indeed. The solutions you offered have always worked for those choosing to work them - and utilize what is available to be used and what others (in line with the SoP) have noted to agree with.

It is no more a case of "special priveleges" going on for others than it'd be a case of special priveleges being present for others who are Dual Citizens in the U.S (i.e. a member of the nation like Panama and the U.S because they were either born in the U.S/had a parent from Panama or were born in Panama/chose to have dual citizenship). The entire reason why such is available is because there are others who may qualify for such - and truly WANT such. I could get that alongside my baby sister who was born in the U.S even though my mother was born in another Hispanic nation - and got hers after living in the U.S for medical school/becoming a U.S citizen in addition to a citizen of Panama.

It'd be silly for anyone who is neither Hispanic nor having others BORN outside of the U.S they identify wihh (and thus, family outside the U.S ) to claim "Well, that's just not fair!!! They're being treated SO SPECIAL!!! They think they're so Cute" - for if they were IN the situation/wished to utilize what their government made available to them, they'd be treated the EXACT same as those who did so. If they had NO family in other nations outside of the U.S - or even wished to identify with other nations as well that they valued - then an opportunity made available to them would not be utilized. But their choosing not to utilize in contrast to those who do is not a matter of others being "more special" - and to argue against that would be disingenuous.

Within that comes the issue that others OUTSIDE of the U.S cannot simply do whatever they want in America - as they didn't take time to honor American values or assimilate into culture. And if they wish to do HARM to the U.S, the U.S rightly recognizes those people as Non-U.S citizens to be suspect. But that doesn't mean the U.S is now treating others "more equal" than others when it doesn't assume that all with dual citizenship are like those OUTSIDE the U.S wishing to harm them - nor do they wage war against all other Non-U.S citizens that are guests in the nation/friends of other U.S Citizens in their homes by broad categorization.

The same goes here for the Messianic forum - as it has never been the case that someone who identifies as a Messianic ceased being Messianic because they noted where they loved the Church/Christianity - nor was it the case that anything done by those Messianic Jews/Gentiles choosing to have a non-Messianic icon (in showing something else on their identity) were allowed something that EVERY SINGLE MESSIANIC POSTER HERE IS WAS NOT ALREADY GIVEN!!!!!

And moreover, it's not already the case that others complaining have already shown a willingness to promote the concept when it pertains to others whom they may agree with. I am reminded of another LONG-TIME and OLDER member/Messianic (Gentile, if I'm not mistaken) who shared some things years ago - Brother - in what his own experience was...as said here:
He has shared multiple times before on his value for Messianic culture/experience in the Messianic Jewish world ( #21 #16 #39 ) - yet I noticed zero people (as it concerns complaints given by some) harping on him whenever he shared on the Torah/support for it or Messianic Jewish culture while also identifying with being a Christian....but somehow, it seems examples like this and many others (the individual known as Desert Rose also coming to mind from her EXTENSIVE posting experience) are often forgotten in history when you come to the heat of things and have pre-existing issues with others which may cause others to lean more so toward partiality/inaccurate scales.

I started out by asking if this situation exists; if the rules were being bent to accommodate a few individuals; if the Site-wide Rules, Forum Rules and Statement of Purpose were only for those not considered 'special'. I ended up getting attacked for asking if what other members were claiming was true.

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Here's the rub. Up until this latest bruhaha, those "special privilege" people - the ones who have been posting here for years have not been the issue. No, they don't have that coveted scroll or menorah (which interestingly enough have had a thread about Yeshua not being G~d and how if He is G~d then we can all be gods. Go figure). Several with the golden scroll have it just so they can teach, even though from their teachings we can clearly see they haven't a clue as to what MJ is. Then there are the crosses who come here on a regular basis to save us poor souls and we are quick to point out our SoP. Most leave without a fight, but several continue to teach despite our warnings. Then we have one or two who have played the system and have no icon at all. What do we do with them? BUT the few with stars and crosses who are respectful, and frankly make more sense than many here, are the ones who are under attack.
So. Let me ask you, Tal, since you don't even post here much, why is this such a big deal to you? Are you really concerned that we all toe the line and follow the SoP to the letter or is there something or someone else who you have issue with?

Chava,

I think you have missed the point of my post entirely. None of this is aimed at you or any of the Jewish community. After all, I have never known you to teach or debate anything as 'Messianic'.

My question has to do with those that do teach and present their views as representative of the majority membership here, as 'Messianic' and claim the right to do so, even though they do not display the Messianic icon or agree with the SoP.

I have never known you to purposely violate the rules or SoP, so I don't know how you got the impression that I was addressing you or the Jewish community as a whole. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in my OP.

Your input is usually very well considered and on point, even if I don't always agree with your conclusion. In this case however, I think you have gotten the wrong idea. I'm sorry. I should have been more clear.

For those who want a relaxation of the rules, as they apply to non-Messianic visitors, to make us more 'open' - please advise how to proceed with post #57 in http://www.christianforums.com/t7749940/

So no one was interested in complaining about the real problem: anti-semitism being posted on our forum. I pointed to it and asked how you guys would deal with it. Nil response as far as I can see! Yet those posts are the ones we should be rooting out!

I have never seen an anti-semitism poke his head in our door without getting a bop on the nose. Nothing much to discuss. Bop it when you see it and move on.

HannibalFlavius said:

I've seen it since I've been here and that aint long. Seen it in the last couple days.

What he said----
''There are only two old religions in the world that are racist: one is Hinduism of India and another is Judaism. ''

Truthorent{or however you spell it} said that Israel is a racist elitist notion of Racist Zionist..

Something like that....

Sounds like he came with an agenda and that agenda is anti-Semitic.

He comes to Messianic Judaism knowing what he says is against Messianic Judaism.





This is what he tells me when I take Israel's side.


''Because it is convenient for you. British had no authority to grant land to others who had been kicked out by God for their wickedness.

There are about three well known religions in the world which are basically militant in nature, namely, Judaism, Islam and Sikhism.

Are you a Messianic Jew? I doubt that!

You are fixed to this temporal world on a permanent basis!

Your yardstick for your belief appears to be not even Torah because you are quoting America which has practically become immoral!
You appear to make political statements not related to spiritual!
Why only Nile to Euphrates? You may want the entire world under your control with your cunning business practice and hypocrisy!

You are not a born-again believer from this political stand. Your true colors are obvious!Wolf in sheep's covering to gather money from naive Christians!

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Many thanks for covering that - as I thought you handled it as necessary at several points There've been several other threads or postings like that one which nearly all Messianic members have had to contend against - especially the ones beginning from non-Members that seem like questions and then go directly into speaking AGAINST the SoP and Jewish culture - or God's Torah/Law. It's unfortunate - and many times, for those non-members who never did such, they often get viewed with suspicion the moment they ask questions because others can be trained to become trigger-happy in the assumption that all other non-members asking questions or making an initial statement will lead to mess.

Generally, how it's handled is that it gets addressed via debate if a comment is made by a non-member that tries to dominant other Messianics without first seeking to fellowship/learn or seeking to deny the Judaic aspect of the Faith - although it has been encouraged to simply report (as I have before ) when someone is denouncing Jewish people unnecessarily or speaking against Torah as being a beautiful thing. For some people, it can be misunderstanding - but for many, it's an intentional issue...and that'd be no different than how it'd be for any other forum.

ContraMundum said:

I think a very few people want to try to distance themselves from Christianity (as they see it, which is in a perjorative sense) and want others to have that same perspective. But you're absolutely right, if it has Jesus as Messiah and Lord in it, regardless of religious observances, it is essentially Christianity at the core, no matter what name you slap on it.

I think the vast majority of the posters here see the MJ movement as a movement within the Body of Messiah, which quite simply is called the "church" in the NT. They might not be "of" the Church, but they are "in" it.

Some see the MJ movement as a repristination movement, but those tiny few see it as a breakaway. I don't think it's fair for either opinion to force theirs into the normative opinion for the forum, most of all because this is under the general title of Christian Forums, whom we all have a debt of gratitude to.

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A lot of smoke seems to keep being brought up on Messianic members with non-Messianic icons that show the side of Church/Christianity that they agree with - in addition to claiming they violate the rules of the SoP despite where others already have been long consistent in identifying with Messianic culture/make that known up front in various other ways - and as the SoP nor others throughout CF were ever focused on ensuring others could not identify with two camps (as the goal was not speaking AGAINST what an SoP), there've been many claims...but not a lot of examples.

It's already established - as noted earlier - that all Messianics here value the Law/Torah and promote it, as well as support the Messianic Jewish world as the SoP notes. One would have to either be unable to read basics in what others say - or be committed to outright lying...or, as you have noted, exaggerate anything disagreeing with them as being akin to a matter of not loving the forum/SoP or Torah. The latter is what often seems to happen - and that will always be a matter of lack of facts - as well as lack in reading/knowing how to disagree. But that has often been covered in SEVERAL threads already

What it does, truthfully, whenever such occurs is make a mockery of what the rules - and of what CF has set up. And as said before, that'll always be smoke and mirrors. People love/value the SoP and always have - so the horse of "The SoP needs to be honored!!" is a dead one. If others really meant what they said, they would also honor the SoP in not trying to force their views on others that claim Messianics are not to identify with Christians - for that will always be a false view that the SoP NEVER supports.

"Majority membership" (as a couple of folks have claimed) as a basis for saying that a large number viewing it one way equates to uniform enforcing of their views on others in the name of the forum" is a specious claim whenever it's brought up...for one saying "Well - I and other Messianics don't like your view of Messianic so you cannot share" - as that goes counter the SoP central issue of not allowing judging others to occur, in regards to differences in the concept of Torah Observance and what is experienced in the Messianic world. And there are majority people on BOTH sides of the camp (some present and others not for various reasons) - hence, why the rules were set up to begin with when it comes to diversity. So long as others love Torah/Judaism and promote such - content - that was the focus of who did...or didn't belong.

The people most complaining on it have been often addressed on it when it comes to the fact that a lot is made out of nothing - including the lie repeated that other Messianics are given "special privelages" over other Messianics for being able to identify with Christianity/the Church when they could've long done the same - if they were really having a heart to identify with the Church/Christianity (especially as it concerns supporting the Jewish worldview for those working in it) or didn't believe the false scenario that identifying with the Church/talking on it within a Messianic world is akin to not being Messianic.

It'll always be a lie claiming that those Messianics within Messianic icons are somehow NOT identifying as Messianic - and it'll always be a lie claiming they don't support the SoP when there's more than enough history showing otherwise, including times they came against others speaking against the Jewish people or God's Law. Honesty needs to be presented ...not politics...

So long as people want to spread a falsehood, more attempts at needless strife will continue sadly...

ChavaK said:

I'm leaving tomorrow and won't be back until late Sunday.
Not ducking any issues, just won't be around for a bit.

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Hoping your vacation goes well

So because I have been busy, I now shouldn't care what happens to the Messianic Judaism forum and because I stand up for the rules, I'm now have questionable motives? So because crazy visitors and people that have icons of convenience are less polite than former members when they break the rules, it's OK for the polite ones to break the rules, but not the rude ones? I understand the nature of the 'rub'. Should I decide to disrespect the forum rules in your presence, I'll try to remember to do it politely. Thanks for clearing that up. That was very kind of you.

anisavta said:

Here's the rub. Up until this latest bruhaha, those "special privilege" people - the ones who have been posting here for years have not been the issue. No, they don't have that coveted scroll or menorah (which interestingly enough have had a thread about Yeshua not being G~d and how if He is G~d then we can all be gods. Go figure). Several with the golden scroll have it just so they can teach, even though from their teachings we can clearly see they haven't a clue as to what MJ is. Then there are the crosses who come here on a regular basis to save us poor souls and we are quick to point out our SoP. Most leave without a fight, but several continue to teach despite our warnings. Then we have one or two who have played the system and have no icon at all. What do we do with them? BUT the few with stars and crosses who are respectful, and frankly make more sense than many here, are the ones who are under attack.
So. Let me ask you, Tal, since you don't even post here much, why is this such a big deal to you? Are you really concerned that we all toe the line and follow the SoP to the letter or is there something or someone else who you have issue with?

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Didn't see #109? Oh well.

Been away for a while, ask what's going on and I get it from all sides. It's not my wheels that are spinning dear. I haven't reported anyone for anything. Just wanted some answers. Got what I came for. Good bye.

ChavaK said:

Oh, good, I can see new replles on my Kindle.
Tal,if you are really that upset why don't you contact the mods and administrations ? You're pretty much spinning your wheels here.

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ChavaK said:

First, I started this thread not to ask for "special priviledges" but because someone opened a thread discussing Jews and Christians and other undesirables who seem to bear the mark of Cain. And yet it's made "MJ only" which blocks responses by those who are being discussed. I consider that really tacky.

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You'd not be the only one noticing that - although of course, anyone who was Messianic Jew/Gentile and who has long been with MJudaism could've shared at any time - including those who don't have use a Messianic icon since it's content that matters. Many people chose to leave it alone since it seemed rather apparent that an issue was being made out of nothing...and people don't have time to play those kind of games.

Second, I am not interested in seeking "special priviledges". It doesn't kill me if I can't post. I used to spend hours a week on this forum, now I'm lucky if I make it a hour a month. I just wanted to point out that people who are pointing fingers at Jews, Christians and other are chasing a red herring. Most of the conflict is between Messianics themselves, and secondarily Messianics and Christians. I see a lot of over reaction here.

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Over reaction is an understatement - but indeed, it does happen - and the bottom line is that the battle has largely been between Messianics (all of whom are Christian by DEFAULT if claiming Christ and Christian by way of choosing to use this forum at CF as their host).

It's largely a battle between Messianics who understand the rules/what's made available to all and other Messianics who often don't do well with disagreement - or tend to think only their view of what Messianic is (which is one amongst many) represents what the SoP is about when it comes to loving Judaism from a Messianic perspective/God's Torah. That will never change so long as others continue to not know how to discuss/enjoy mutual learning and instead want really fellowship.

So I wanted to know why Jews posting is a problem. I haven't seen any Jew in a long time come in and challenge your faith. The last few who have been here (and now seem to be gone) were Messianic positive in how they reacted here-polite and non-combative. They were interested in discussing Torah and Jewish law. Again, we don't understand why people get all huffy when they claim to be a part of the Jewish people or Israel and to be accepted by the Jewish community. We would think you would be happy to discuss Judaism, but it appears not.

Oh, you should know that several people here have PM'd me to ask questions about Judaism and Jewish culture. They didn't even want to ask the questions here, presumably because someone would report our answers, or they didn't want to start a big debate about everything.

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A lot of people have noted that there is ZERO way to try selectivly asking if non-members should post (when focusing on other Messianics they disagree with/deem "non-Messianic" for not only identifying with Messianic culture) - and then trying to go above/beyond to make special priveleges for Jewish people who they say they enjoy. If others who are Jewish are Messianic-positive, the same applies to those who are non-Jewish but have done the same - and often times, over-reaction causes many to confuse groups.

And I know you've shared before how you saw things elsewhere outside of CF on other forums where it seemed plain that others seemed to always be in flux on whether they were invited/valued or not - not surprising when dealing with the history of the forum ( #27 #28 #30 #38 )..as far back as the thread entitled List of approved posters in MJ, The list.

There is much internal strife in this forum. Personally I think it IS because of the posting limits. I've been to a lot of other forums, speaking with Christians, Muslims, Jews, Messianics and people of other faith. And I've never seem the conflicts that go on here.

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In many other places, there's FREEDOM to discuss with others - and there's understanding on how to deal with others who disagree without being dramatic on it and making mountains out of molehills.

I'm not asking for special priviledges, and I don't really want them.

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Nor do any others who've been following the discussion - including those Messianics identifying with the Church/Christianity as well as MJism and being faithful to both. For it was never a matter of "special privileges" so much as it was a matter of walking honorably to what the SoP of the forum is about - and the same thing goes for you as a Jewish member who seeks to fellowship/be able to share with others who have a heart for the Jewish world

Sadly, that has been maligned several times - and in many respects, when confronted on the basis of the SoP for juding/not being respectful to others, it seems a lot of excuses have been made on it ....while simultaneously trying to harp on "What about the rules and SoP?!!!" as if there was consistent concern for it. It's shameful, really - as you've noted earlier.

I've pretty much decided this is not a place to come for true learning and sharing of ideas.


I'll pop in once in awhile to say, hey how are ya? But to be honest I've go so many new positive productive things going on,there isn't a lot of desire to be here.

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I am sorry to hear that you feel that way - especially in light of keeping up with things and knowing that is not how it was all the time...and knowing that many other Jewish believers/non-Messianic Jews have noted the same for some time when feeling like it's never really about dialogue in enjoyment of the Jewish worldview as much as it's about in-fighting/politics.

Praying the best for ya wherever life takes you...

muffler dragon said:

I recall simchat's Einstein quote:

Originally Posted by Einstein

He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice
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​

When critical thought/evaluation is squashed, then the rest borders on bopkess for bopkess sake. :shrug:

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Good quote to remember/live by, IMHO. Thanks for that...