A response to the "MJ only" thread

Avodat said:

I'm not sure that is necessarily the case. The point is made that Jews should be able to post more freely - however, for all others who come on here, it is a requirement that they must accept that this is as per the SoP he quotes etc. It was clearly in the context that the Jews on here were exempt from the second part of what he said (when read in conjunction with his previous longer post).

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In other words, you do not need to follow your own sop. You are free from it at will?

annier said:

I already did. I was told to go to unorthodox theology. LOL, there is no "messianic" forum for that.
All it would take is a vote by those that do not wish anyone else to be here in this particular forum. It is that simple.

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With respect, and not picking an argument, I do not think they will accept a proposal to change these fora around from someone who is not a member of it. It would be like me asking the local golf course to allow a game of cricket on the green, when I am not even a member of the club. There is, as it happens, a rule that says the name of this forum may not be changed, nor a possible change be debated - that came about from last time we had a debate on these issues; it happens during the summer months, it seems!

annier said:

In other words, you do not need to follow your own sop. You are free from it at will?

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If that is all you can read from what I wrote, so be it - your choice. There are a number of Jews who post here and their presence is accepted by the moderators according to the wishes of the majority of regular posters. I fail to see some of the arguments that that is not the case, whether from them, or any others.

Avodat said:

With respect, and not picking an argument, I do not think they will accept a proposal to change these fora around from someone who is not a member of it. It would be like me asking the local golf course to allow a game of cricket on the green, when I am not even a member of the club. There is, as it happens, a rule that says the name of this forum may not be changed, nor a possible change be debated - that came about from last time we had a debate on these issues; it happens during the summer months, it seems!

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All YOU and those of YOU which have created this forum and it's SOP need to do is VOTE. Call it UNORTHODOX if you must. You and YOUR fellows do not have YOUR hands tied in this.

annier said:

BTW, I editted after this post. The "special priviledge" is not so much to others but themselves really.

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You mean like the special privilage to claim they are following Judaism not Christianity from within a Christian faith group?

Avodat said:

If that is all you read from what I wrote, so be it - your choice.

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Actually I thought it was yours?

annier said:

All YOU and those of YOU which have created this forum and it's SOP need to do is VOTE. Call it UNORTHODOX if you must. You and YOUR fellows do not have YOUR hands tied in this.

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You do not need to shout. I'm not sure what you suggest we should vote on. We cannot have any extra fora to work with, we cannot change the forum name, we already enjoy Jews being able to join us on here, albeit with some restrictions - what do you, as a non-member, think we should do for you, not anyone else?

ChavaK said:

I actually hadn't noticed this, but now that it's been pointed out-it's very true.

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How do you see it as being true?

ChavaK said:

I actually hadn't noticed this, but now that it's been pointed out-it's very true.

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I do not hold anything against you Chavak. This priviledge is not so much to you anyway really. It is to themselves. Why not Just by pass the sop altogether and gather a list of names of who can post here.

Avodat said:

You do not need to shout. I'm not sure what you suggest we should vote on. We cannot have any extra fora to work with, we cannot change the forum name, we already enjoy Jews being able to join us on here, albeit with some restrictions - what do you, as a non-member, think we should do for you, not anyone else?

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I am not suggesting a forum name change. You And yours, need not change the name of this forum. Just allow those you deem as unorthodox Messianics and or unorthodox Judaisms an expression within these fora just like Christianity does. That is all you all have to do. No different than orthodox Judaism is a Judaism, reform Judaism is a Judaism etc. Let it all fall under what it is judaism that is Messianic, but unorthodox messianic by you all's standard. After all there are Messianics here that are a Judaism as you define "a Judaism" But they are unorthodox in their Messianic views in your opinion. It is real simple.

annier said:

I do not hold anything against you Chavak. This priviledge is not so much to you anyway really. It is to themselves. Why not Just by pass the sop altogether and gather a list of names of who can post here.

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Yes, list them in the SOP and be done with it. They can then vote on who to add to the list. SIMPLES...as heber would say Problem solved, closed forum. All the rest of us will be relegated to take refugee status in other forums or reside in UT. That always seems to be the response from this group and staff anyway it seems.

annier said:

I do not hold anything against you Chavak. This priviledge is not so much to you anyway really. It is to themselves. Why not Just by pass the sop altogether and gather a list of names of who can post here.

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Lol! A non-Member telling a Member to by-pass the SoP. That just about sums up some of the problems we have on here, you should not even be debating, let alone telling others how to circumvent the rules we have, whilst accusing us of doing that!

annier said:

I am not suggesting a forum name change. You And yours, need not change the name of this forum. Just allow those you deem as unorthodox Messianics and or unorthodox Judaisms an expression within these fora just like Christianity does. That is all you all have to do. No different than orthodox Judaism is a Judaism, reform Judaism is a Judaism etc. Let it all fall under what it is judaism that is Messianic, but unorthodox messianic by you all's standard. After all there are Messianics here that are a Judaism as you define "a Judaism" But they are unorthodox in their Messianic views in your opinion. It is real simple.

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If you remove the 'you' from this it would read a lot better. Your assumptions about 'me' are just that: assumptions

ChavaK said:

Lol, I noticed that too. Someone at the other thread actually said they were not practicing Christianity. If that is an opinion of most posters here, why in the world does a Christian forum allow a non-Christian group to have it's own forum here?

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Because we believe in the SoF in the SoP?

Just an observation -
Does anyone remember last year (was it around this time?) we went through this same battle - name change, icon changes, SoP changes and we almost shut down. Everyone was disgruntled, no one listened to anyone else, everyone had their own ideas on how this forum should be run. Basically, everyone wanted rules, as long as they could play by their own.
Lets face it, we will never agree on how to play nice. We can add forums or remove them till the cows come home and we'll still have the hit and runs who stir the nest, those who's theology changes depending on who will agree with them, those who hate every icon but their own and those who change icons so everyone won't hate them.
We have admins who govern our fora who haven't a clue how we roll.
I'm weary of it all, really.
Quite frankly, I think if we'd tell those who start rocking the boat in the first place to sit down instead of standing up to join the fist fight, we'd be better off. All it takes is one, "who let the Jews out" post and interestingly everyone who we haven't heard from in ages comes out of the woodwork to throw a punch.
Oy!

anisavta said:

Just an observation -
Does anyone remember last year (was it around this time?) we went through this same battle - name change, icon changes, SoP changes and we almost shut down. Everyone was disgruntled, no one listened to anyone else, everyone had their own ideas on how this forum should be run. Basically, everyone wanted rules, as long as they could play by their own.
Lets face it, we will never agree on how to play nice. We can add forums or remove them till the cows come home and we'll still have the hit and runs who stir the nest, those who's theology changes depending on who will agree with them, those who hate every icon but their own and those who change icons so everyone won't hate them.
We have admins who govern our fora who haven't a clue how we roll.
I'm weary of it all, really.
Quite frankly, I think if we'd tell those who start rocking the boat in the first place to sit down instead of standing up to join the fist fight, we'd be better off. All it takes is one, "who let the Jews out" post and interestingly everyone who we haven't heard from in ages comes out of the woodwork to throw a punch.
Oy!

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ContraMundum said:

I think some people want to own the forum and control the conversation, literally unable for some strange reason to handle differing points of view or people not wearing the right "hat". I consider this unrealistic and really strange as MJism is a movement with quite an array of theology and competing doctrines. As such, a denominational icon just isn't enough to reflect the situation on the ground. The boundaries of MJism, especially looking through the lens of its history, are very permeable and the movement gains its energy and thought from the mainstream Church as well as the various doctrines within the movement. It's a crosstalk situation.

A few months ago we had a real problem with a similar post that caused all kinds of strife. It was publically stated that is was in fact a ruse to flush out the heretics, a kind of Spanish Inquisition that had an uncanny similarity to Mao's Hundred Flowers Campaign. I believe that there was forum peace both before and after that mess and now we're back to killing the flock? I don't get it.

It's just not cricket. The OP'er needs to enjoy life a little more and quit stressing about little things like this. That's my two cents.

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Spot on...

Mao's Hundred Flowers Campaign was a good comparison for it - and I remember when the situation as you noted was brought up - as seen in #161 /#165 /#326 /from the thread entitled Messianic Judaism?

Of course, those aware of where the same happened before (and was noted in places outside of CF) were not really surprised whatsoever. It's unfortunate whenever that occurs - but it is what it is. Ultimately, it does seem that those unable to handle differences or living with what they don't like will always be prone to over-react and engage in such things as you've noted. It'd be similar to an African-American community having Caucasians come in who relate to/respect and value the community (and those Caucasians being married to African-Americans themselves) ...and yet having others blacks in the community saying "No - We need to get RID of those Whites because they aren't like us!!!!" - in the assumption that all whites are associated with those for the KKK/other evils....and then taking it further to claim that the African-American woman married to a Caucasian/identifying with his culture (and raising bi-racial children) and black culture isn't "black" because of duality.

Those reacting in fear (or having an agenda ) are the ones prone to assume all are the same rather than dealing logically with case-by-case basis...or knowing where variations are and seeing how cultures connect together. Another analogy would be having an athlete with an organization known as "World Class Athletes" for those who love sports globally and are for excellence in training. If they were to also identify with organizations that have similar goals/reflections (even though specific differences) - such as identifying with "Global Athletics" association, it'd be illogical for others from "World Class Athletes" to assume they are not with them.....or demonize them in the claim that many have come from outside their organization that did damage (i.e. bribery, steroids/drugs, cheating, etc.) to the world of sports. It'd also be illogical for them to fuss when it's already been the case that not everyone with their own organization has been flawless - if wanting to be simplistic in going by "titles" alone.

What matters is measuring the athlete - and likewise, what matters in MJish circles is seeing what exactly is shared rather than slothful/hasty generalizations (or guilt-by-association) ideology that assumes the worse of others because they don't solely identify as one thing.

True, there've been many who speak out against God's Torah/Jewish culture who had no Messianic icon - only to switch/get one to keep doing the same..and that has been dealt with before. On the same token, there has been discussion on others who were with the Messianic icon for ages but chose to switch for their own reasons even while they still identified as Messianics. We have to deal honestly with categories.

Personally, I don't do (nor care for ) 'icons of convenience' - although I think they should be banned/users doing so removed from CF for awhile until they prove themselves. I was involved in the Messianic Jewish world long before choosing to have the "Messianic" icon in 2010 - and in switching icons to "Oriential Orthodox" last April, I kept my "About Me" section/Signature the same where it notes me being Messianic as well as OO ..just like it was when I had a "Messianic" icon - so not much has changed for me except that I have an OO Icon to show another aspect of who I am.

For myself, I relate to those Messianics who've been comfortable in dual identity - one of them being who Daughter of Ararat (#5 /#27 /#85 ). She'd be a good example of Dual Identity - as she's Jewish and identifies as Messianic (more here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here) and has been involved in synagogue, but also goes to an Armenian Orthodox (Oriential Orthodox) church... and as shared in some of our conversations, "There is a cultural commonality and similarity of approach in the Orthodox and the Messianic Jewish (or sometimes in the MJ) that I feel like it expresses something important about who I am.... Both aspects reflect part of my faith and understanding of the world." I can relate to where she's at as I've been there for years (as it was when I had a Messianic icon) - for I work with others in OO and feel OO (Oriential Orthodoxy) reflects Jewish culture the best (IMHO) in regards to how it reflects a way of original understanding that had its Jewish roots and its Semitic culture as a basis for understanding the thought, vision, and the teachings of Jesus (or Yeshua as he was called in the Aramic and in His day) , I am glad for it ( #1 , #1 , #1 #3 ) even as I'm thankful for Messianic Jewish culture.

There are plenty of Jews involved in Orthodoxy while also identifying with Messianic culture....seeing the aspects of Temple culture which are present within it as well as other things. There's much more of a focus on that aspect of Messianic life in the part of the forum known as Bridge Builders. And within the Messianic world, there has been much focus in regards to Jewish individuals involved in Liturgical circles of the Church - the entire concept of what Bridge-Builders is about...AND I've shared more elsewhere on the issue before (as seen here , here, here, here and here).

If others who are Jewish wanted to have the same (OR Gentiles who are Messianic), all they had to do was ask and be respectful on boundaries wherever they are. The same goes for others who are Gentiles involved in the Messianic movement - but involved with churches. If they wanted to show identification with something else (should they also post elsewhere), they simply needed to inform others/make that clear.

It's all a matter of working with whatever is available. As has been noted before, there has always existed diversity/several streams within the Messianic Jewish movement and others emphasizing the Jewish lifestyle/perspective and yet promoting involvement in the Church ( #21 / #30 ) - the concept of being Bridge Builders (as the MJ Forum emphasizes), which many have noted throughout the Messianic movement...one example being Mark Kinzer in his own words (when it comes to his work within the Catholic Church and yet being Jewish - just as Gentiles work with other Jewish groups, with them being Gentile not causing them to cease being "Messianic"). There are others besides that, of course (more here and here) who've said the same for ages.

We already have an ENTIRE Thread dedicated to showing others who were Jewish and Messianic - if aware of the thread entitled Messianic History (#220 #238 /#252 ) - which was noteworthy because many referenced in the thread were those who were Jewish and involved in the Church - working with Gentiles who felt parts of the Church were more faithful to a Jewish expression of the faith.

If the option was available of having 2 icons shown simultaneously, it'd be taken - but it's not...although dual membership is available for all and those desiring it do what they can - and respect whatever is the boundaries/rules for the forum they are in. .

There's already the example you've set alongside others for years - such as you having an Anglican Icon when he worked with them even though he noted in description/moniker where you were Messianic Jewish ...more shared in #53 / #64/#68/ #76 /#175 - or others noting in their own signatures where they are Messianic even if they have an icon like a Black Cross saying "Christian" or the Dove/Earth & Cross saying "Charismatic" - should they come from Messianic circles that emphasis a Charismatic experience and they want that symbolized).

Even when others raise a false scenario saying "Well, those who identify as Messianic and yet don't have a Messianic icon don't love Torah - they're just privileged" - it is a pity since there have already been multiple discussions over the years when others have shared their own love for God's Word/Torah.

But even then, that was addressed in detail - for the main two threads where votes went down to show where others stood are the following:

• Who believes this to be true: The Torah is not for Gentiles
• Who believes this to be true? -We are saved by Torah, not by faith/grace in Yeshua

More was discussed elsewhere on the matter as well - here in #35, #51 , #64, #74, #77 #162 , #167 . Many don't like it when seeing real Messianic Judaism that says they do not seem themselves in disconnection with Christianity or the Church.

For Christianity is Jewish - and Messianic Judaism is Jewish Chrisitianity (as the early body of believers in Acts - sprung from the Judaism of its day - was a Jewish Christian body). ..with others long seeing it sensible that Messianic Judaism on CF is a subset of Christianity umbrella - and as such, it works well since it lines up with the Site-Wide rules on Christianity.

Those trying to divorce themselves from Christianity at all points are really the ones who'd qualify as being "privileged" on CF since it's not allowed elsewhere.

ChavaK said:

I agree....what should matter is the content of the post and not the silly icons.

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Indeed. If they speak out against Paul (like trying to call him false) or the Torah itself (i.e. "Torah is dead!!!", "Torah is useless!!!", etc.) , that's one thing - but outside of that, it's really not that serious of an issue.

Originally Posted by annier

What this amounted to is a forum that is the only forum to violate their own sop at will
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Shimshon said:

Isn't that amazing! I notice this too.

ChavaK said:

I actually hadn't noticed this, but now that it's been pointed out-it's very true.

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It has been said for years. In example, there have been MULTIPLE times where it was claimed by a few "We only need MESSIANICS here teaching!!!" - and yet they allowed for others who were Non-Messianic to teach ...simply because they were Jewish/happened to agree with something that they liked. Not blasting Yonah, who I appreciated at multiple points, but this got noticed a number of times by outsiders who saw himself alongside other Jews speaking on issues - and assumed "Well, I'm Jewish - but I'm against Christ - so I can speak as well!!

No one here who denounced those Jewish individuals disagreeing with Messianics ever showed a belief in a "hard-fast/"iron-fist" rule of "Only Messianics teaching!!!" when they continued to allow for Jewish NON-Believers to teach...and said nothing when they either corrected others or addressed issues, depending on who the individual was. For it seemed to be more of an issue of favoritism. There are multiple threads on subjects varying from language to Talmud where postings were quoted with "Good Job!!!" or other positive sentiments because of where others were already biased to people. If you are valued as a Jewish person, you're given room to act - but the moment you say something from a Jewish perspective that another Messianic (or a few) disagree with - regardless of the fact that it is Jewish/historical - then it becomes a matter of trying to quote the rules/saying "Well you can't teach - even if you are Jewish!!" ...and it's why multiple Jews have long since left, including those who once supported the forum.

It became evident quickly that there only rule by the Mob/partiality rather than focusing on CONTENT - and whether or not it supported either Messianic Jewish culture at large or Jewish culture in general.

The same thing can be said rather easily of what occurred with Christianity - as the rules don't allow for denouncing of it in general - and yet the same people speaking of the SoP (When it came to advocating their views on Torah) ignored it when it came to not being able to resist denouncing Christians/slander them in claiming that Christians don't value Torah. ....or trying to ignore the fact that other Messianics were ALLOWED to identify with Christians if they so chose. It'd be illogical for someone seeing the SoP where it notes that Messianics support a type of Judaism - and then claim that they support only Judaism rather than Christianity...for if they wanted only Judaism, they could go to other forums - but Christianity is where all faith group allowed to be in - with Messianic Judaism being a TYPE of Judaism, just as Christianity evolved out of Judaism. For people to try divorcing themselves from all things Christianity is to be against the SoP and the site-wide rules at large - but the way many go about talking on it, it seems plain they want special privelages that no one else on CF has.

It can be seen as opportunistic whenever others ignore the rules (if/when it suits their purposes) and then find a reason to bring them up when it comes to others whose views they don't like