A response to the "MJ only" thread

[ChavaK]

Because I don't want to invade this "MJ Only" thread:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7754456-post63340199/#poststop

I would like to know who is allowed posting and teaching privileges HERE that DO NOT have a Messianic Icon. (Wouldn't want to step on any 'special' toes...) ... Can anyone aspire to this exception from the general rule about forum memberships? ... This thread is intended for those with a Messianic Icon. I don't really want to hear from the privileged few. Y'know, Messianic Anglicans or whatever. ...

To those committed to Messianic Judaism (not necessarily Messianic Lutheranism or whatever):

What so you think of this situation?
Are you personally aware of these changes?
Were you notified of these changes?
WHO has special privileges and who doesn't?
Are there any other rules that only apply to some?
Are there other rules that have changed that we should know about?
Are these 'secret' rules?
What do you know and when did you know it?

Thanks,

Your sincere and thoughtful feedback is appreciated.

I decided I would put a few comments here.

From our point of view, Jews have never been the issue here. It's Christians and Messisanics going at it most of the time.
I'm sure you've noticed, but almost no Jews post here anymore. Yonah left, so you have lost his vast knowledge of Hebrew and Greek.
TL and one other Jewish gentleman who posts here (sorry, can't remember his name) no longer post. Dena and I seldom post. It has become
a forum that simply isn't attractive anymore.

I've gotten involved with a lot of new things in my life which leaves little time and desire to be here, which is sad because I've
been a member here for forever.

None of us has ever been able to figure out why a faith that thinks it is "a" Judaism gets so upset when a Jew posts things here about Judaism.
You would think you all would be interested in it since you claim to be a part of Judaism. It isn't logical and leaves us scratching our heads.

Anyway, just wanted to say Jews won't be an issue here, and never were. It's Christians fighting Messiancs, and Messianics fighting each other
that generally causes the issue.

So few of us are left here, so if you want to report our posts or ban us outright, it's fine by me. I'm truly saddened by what this place has become.

Let the reporting begin, lol.

 

[ananda]

None of us has ever been able to figure out why a faith that thinks it is "a" Judaism gets so upset when a Jew posts things here about Judaism. You would think you all would be interested in it since you claim to be a part of Judaism. It isn't logical and leaves us scratching our heads.

Personally, I see Messianic Judaism as "the" Judaism, and that the other mainstream Judaisms are offshoots created by the doctrinal protestations and divisions of the Pharisees and Sadducees &c of the first century A.D.

With that said I value everyone's input here myself, and I rarely hit the reporting button. But I can understand talmidim's frustration at seeing non-Messianic Jews clearly teaching in here: I think that's the main problem.

 

[anisavta]

In the years I have been a part of CF, there were a few times when I felt threatened by a few normative Jews who tried to disprove Messianic Judaism and made it very difficult for us here. But most if not all were converts who were either very hurt and angry with Christianity or were anti-missionaries on a mission to discredit Messiah and His followers.
They have all since left.
I agree, Chava, that now it's a hodge podge of Christian vrs Messianic arguments. We have no fellowship threads and those that do spring up from time to time die quickly.
I, for one, having discovered my Jewish DNA later in life want to soak up my culture and the traditions. Because I am not a convert, I have to learn from you and my little Reform congregation.
I do miss Yonah greatly! He was the voice of reason in some of the crazy arguments those who haven't a clue what they are talking about needed to hear.
So, to those who are quick to report our normative Jewish friends - perhaps it would be better for you to head over to GT and duke it out with the other wack-a-doos there and leave us Jews and Jew loving Gentiles alone.

 

[ChavaK]

With that said I value everyone's input here myself, and I rarely hit the reporting button. But I can understand talmidim's frustration at seeing non-Messianic Jews clearly teaching in here: I think that's the main problem.

Sure I understand. But it shouldn't be an issue anymore as there really aren't any of us left here. Also, if what they are teaching is main stream Judaism which many here claim to be a part of, it really makes no sense to be upset by it.

Again, there hasn't been a Jewish presence here for a while, so don't think we are the cause of your problems

I also find it annoying that people who are seldom here come over only to b&moan about how things are here.

I think I'm getting grouchy in my old age.

 

[Avodat]

In the years I have been a part of CF, there were a few times when I felt threatened by a few normative Jews who tried to disprove Messianic Judaism and made it very difficult for us here. But most if not all were converts who were either very hurt and angry with Christianity or were anti-missionaries on a mission to discredit Messiah and His followers.
They have all since left.
I agree, Chava, that now it's a hodge podge of Christian vrs Messianic arguments. We have no fellowship threads and those that do spring up from time to time die quickly.
I, for one, having discovered my Jewish DNA later in life want to soak up my culture and the traditions. Because I am not a convert, I have to learn from you and my little Reform congregation.
I do miss Yonah greatly! He was the voice of reason in some of the crazy arguments those who haven't a clue what they are talking about needed to hear.
So, to those who are quick to report our normative Jewish friends - perhaps it would be better for you to head over to GT and duke it out with the other wack-a-doos there and leave us Jews and Jew loving Gentiles alone.

 

[Avodat]

I was very concerned when Yonah mentioned that he had been reported when he answered one of my posts - I immediately posted to say I had not reported him but that I would like to know why he was reported because I found nothing wrong at all what he said - my post was wiped. It is things like these where our friendly helpful Jews are being reported for nothing that loses us good people.

 

[ChavaK]

I was very concerned when Yonah mentioned that he had been reported when he answered one of my posts - I immediately posted to say I had not reported him but that I would like to know why he was reported because I found nothing wrong at all what he said - my post was wiped. It is things like these where our friendly helpful Jews are being reported for nothing that loses us good people.

He actually posted a thread here a few weeks ago saying he was leaving...and why.
It was deleted so I don't know how many people saw it.

 

[anisavta]

I saw it.
I know I'm getting grouchy in my old age!

 

[visionary]

I was very concerned when Yonah mentioned that he had been reported when he answered one of my posts - I immediately posted to say I had not reported him but that I would like to know why he was reported because I found nothing wrong at all what he said - my post was wiped. It is things like these where our friendly helpful Jews are being reported for nothing that loses us good people.

any lurker could have reported it and it had nothing to do with any MJ. I think maybe we need to have a ruling that it has to be a MJ reporting a post in the MJ forum area in order for it to be considered offensive..etc

 

[ChavaK]

any lurker could have reported it and it had nothing to do with any MJ. I think maybe we need to have a ruling that it has to be a MJ reporting a post in the MJ forum area in order for it to be considered offensive..etc

Good suggestion Vis.

 

[ChavaK]

A long time ago the system was set up so unless one a Magen David icon (back then they no issues with Jews posting) or a Messianic icon you literally could not post in the Messianic area; the computer would block access. Perhaps you should reinstate that then no one could post in this section except Messianics.
Personally I think you'll still have issues, but then you won't anyone to blame but yourselves,lol.
Then you could really get down finding the root of the problem and work at a solution.

So that would be my suggestion-see if the system will allow you to block posters if they don't have the proper icon.
I think it would make the forum a complete drag,but do what you think you need to.

 

[Avodat]

A long time ago the system was set up so unless one a Magen David icon (back then they no issues with Jews posting) or a Messianic icon you literally could not post in the Messianic area; the computer would block access. Perhaps you should reinstate that then no one could post in this section except Messianics.
Personally I think you'll still have issues, but then you won't anyone to blame but yourselves,lol.
Then you could really get down finding the root of the problem and work at a solution.

So that would be my suggestion-see if the system will allow you to block posters if they don't have the proper icon.
I think it would make the forum a complete drag,but do what you think you need to.

In the short time I have been here I think various suggestions have been made to solve the problem but not taken up. However, seeing the number of newbies coming in here with, on average, 140 posts, indicates to me that something odd is going on. Why do so many get to that number and then suddenly turn up here? Those who come in and teach against the SoP seem to soon discover that if they simply change their icon they can carry on doing whatever they want. I said before that 'icons of convenience' should be banned and the users removed from CF for an extended period.

Re Yonah - that email he posted was the one I responded to, saying his response was not a problem to me and I didn't report him, and it was wiped along with his explanation.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

In the short time I have been here I think various suggestions have been made to solve the problem but not taken up. However, seeing the number of newbies coming in here with, on average, 140 posts, indicates to me that something odd is going on. Why do so many get to that number and then suddenly turn up here? Those who come in and teach against the SoP seem to soon discover that if they simply change their icon they can carry on doing whatever they want. I said before that 'icons of convenience' should be banned and the users removed from CF for an extended period.

Re Yonah - that email he posted was the one I responded to, saying his response was not a problem to me and I didn't report him, and it was wiped along with his explanation.

I would welcome anyone and I have never reported anyone in past forums, but changing an icon is pretty cheezy isn't it?

It becomes very obvious if a person is not a Messianic right away, and if I looked up and saw a MJ icon that I knew wasn't an MJ, it would just be sad.

It must give a bad feeling to the person who gets that cheezy.

 

[Avodat]

Then we have people who refuse to shown anything - we do not know who they are or what they believe. That should not be allowed, but it is happening.

 

[Avodat]

I would welcome anyone and I have never reported anyone in past forums, but changing an icon is pretty cheezy isn't it?

It becomes very obvious if a person is not a Messianic right away, and if I looked up and saw a MJ icon that I knew wasn't an MJ, it would just be sad.

It must give a bad feeling to the person who gets that cheezy.

We try not to judge people by their icon but if they are teaching against the commonly held beliefs of the regular posters here, or the SoP, they will be reported at some point and the Mods will remove them for us.

If they haven't got one of the MJ icons then they may not debate or teach on here - again infringements can be reported. We do have some valued Davidic Star (Jewish) people on here who are accepted by the regular posters and contribute to our threads and are not reported for an infringement because we value their being here, but others without a Messianic icon are limited by the rules. We also have a poster who refuses to have any icon, or anything else to identify him/her and so is regarded as not being a member of this forum - this should not be allowed; anonymity in this way, when posting, should also be banned.

There are rules, of course, that apply to us and our behaviour on here.

 

[ContraMundum]

The thread this thread is a response to was really very hurtful and sad to see. Thanks for opening a response, ChavaK.

I really see all this perpetual fuss over icons as really rather pointless. I just don't have a problem with free speech the way some do, and I don't think there is a need to continually try to cull the herd of posters here due to prejudicial notions of who is kosher and who isn't. Keep culling and you'll only have a few posters and this place will continue to decline on injecting new conversation matter. As it is there's really almost no variety anymore.

I really think it's sad that a few people here care more about stupid icons than post content. I say to the people who are trying to control and cull the herd to open their hearts and minds a little. Rather than jealously guard the forum until there are only three or four posters left (my count three regulars), try letting the Jews (Rabbinic, Messianic and Church going) feel a little more welcomed- you know, like MJism constantly claims to aim for.

Most people who come here and post, new and old, don't cause a lot of trouble. It seems to me that making a scene about "who's in and who's out" has been the cause of most of the trouble since I've been a member- for years. End that and half of the agitation will end. The rules work just fine as they are. Maybe it's time to re-think the role of MJism for this forum in regards Jews and seekers. In the real MJ world (eg. where things actually matter more anyway) MJism is known as being welcoming and warm to Jews of all stripes. Why not here then?

 

[ContraMundum]

Double post....see below.

 

[ContraMundum]

Because I don't want to invade this "MJ Only" thread:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7754456-post63340199/#poststop



I decided I would put a few comments here.

From our point of view, Jews have never been the issue here. It's Christians and Messisanics going at it most of the time.
I'm sure you've noticed, but almost no Jews post here anymore. Yonah left, so you have lost his vast knowledge of Hebrew and Greek.
TL and one other Jewish gentleman who posts here (sorry, can't remember his name) no longer post. Dena and I seldom post. It has become
a forum that simply isn't attractive anymore.

I've gotten involved with a lot of new things in my life which leaves little time and desire to be here, which is sad because I've
been a member here for forever.

None of us has ever been able to figure out why a faith that thinks it is "a" Judaism gets so upset when a Jew posts things here about Judaism.
You would think you all would be interested in it since you claim to be a part of Judaism. It isn't logical and leaves us scratching our heads.

Anyway, just wanted to say Jews won't be an issue here, and never were. It's Christians fighting Messiancs, and Messianics fighting each other
that generally causes the issue.

So few of us are left here, so if you want to report our posts or ban us outright, it's fine by me. I'm truly saddened by what this place has become.

Let the reporting begin, lol.

The OP on the other thread was really about what that person deemed was a kind of dual citizenship. Why are Jews who can't/don't attend a "Messianic" fellowship allowed to post is really what he is getting at.

If you look for the motive of the post, it seems to me that there is a lot of personal opinion in there.

Here's the way I see it- many, perhaps most of the Messianics here actually don't attend MJ fellowships. They are church goers, who identify with the theology or perhaps the shtick of the MJ movement. In doing so, they choose the MJ icon, but in fact they attend church. They are de facto "dual citizens" as well. I consider this a little fake but I don't mind, because I can handle the free exchange of ideas. Then you get the other kind who are Jews who identify with Messianic theology and praxis but attend church and are honest about it. These people put up Church icons. Either way, it looks to me like the same thing. Not everyone who thinks like an MJ can attend an MJ congregation, but some will just be more up front about where they fellowship.

Why is this even a problem? Well, I think some people want to own the forum and control the conversation, literally unable for some strange reason to handle differing points of view or people not wearing the right "hat". I consider this unrealistic and really strange as MJism is a movement with quite an array of theology and competing doctrines. As such, a denominational icon just isn't enough to reflect the situation on the ground. The boundaries of MJism, especially looking through the lens of its history, are very permeable and the movement gains its energy and thought from the mainstream Church as well as the various doctrines within the movement. It's a crosstalk situation.

A few months ago we had a real problem with a similar post that caused all kinds of strife. It was publically stated that is was in fact a ruse to flush out the heretics, a kind of Spanish Inquisition that had an uncanny similarity to Mao's Hundred Flowers Campaign. I believe that there was forum peace both before and after that mess and now we're back to killing the flock? I don't get it.

It's just not cricket. The OP'er needs to enjoy life a little more and quit stressing about little things like this. That's my two cents.

 

[muffler dragon]

Kudos to CM for two great posts IMO!

Back in the early to mid 00's, the MJ forum was a time of great conversations, insights, and discussions (amongst other things). Personally, I credit this forum (or at least, it's past self) with helping me get to the point where I am today spiritually/theologically/metaphysically.

I recall simchat's Einstein quote:

He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice.

When critical thought/evaluation is squashed, then the rest borders on bopkess for bopkess sake. :shrug:

 

[Yahudim]

Hi All,

For those that don't recall, I have publically stated that I would like Jewish members to have more liberal posting privileges in this forum. But for me and the majority of the Messianic membership that has voted on this issue ad nausium, Messianic Judaism is a valid form of Torah Observant Judaism. We should not have members that do not agree with that statement, answering visitors posts, teaching and debating - period.

I am a Messianic that attends Christian and Jewish houses of worship for fellowship. Some of them are Messianic. But I do not represent myself as anything other than an adherent to Messianic Judaism. So no, I'm not really trying to 'get at' anything different.

A Jewish convert to Christianity is still a practicing Christian. A Christian with leanings toward the Hebrew context of Christianity is still a practicing Christian. A Jew that accepts Messiah Y'shua, but believes that Gentiles are not responsible to Torah; well I don't know what they are, but their views do not line up with the SoP upon which the membership forum voted and agreed. Out there is out there and in here is in here. I am only addressing what is going on in here.

The purpose of my thread is to find out what has been going on in secret and is currently being revealed: That members of other Faith Groups and Christian Denominations are allowed special privileges to teach mainstream Christian dogma in the Messianic Judaism forum. In short, this forum, under these circumstances, no longer represents a Torah Observant Faith Group called Messianic Judaism.

This is not a personal attack as some might believe. This forum is, by our SoP, a Torah Observant group, Jew and Gentile alike. To allow individuals that profess beliefs different from that SoP to have teaching privileges here, is beyond the Statement of Purpose, beyond the Forum Rules, beyond the Site Wide Rules, beyond the express majority opinion of the Messianic membership and beyond comprehension. That is my position. But it is not an attack on any person or group. It is a position taken in defense of this Faith Group. Nothing more.

Thanks for listening.