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A Request for Gottservant

Old Ned

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This is true.

Soteriology and technology have nothing to do with each other.

Since you like this thread Av, would you like to offer up your knowledge of the 3 points in the op?

YOUR knowledge of...

1: Scientific Method
2: Scientific Theory
3: The Theory of Evolution.

Just wondering if you would like to share :)
 
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AV1611VET

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Since you like this thread Av, would you like to offer up your knowledge of the 3 points in the op?

YOUR knowledge of...

1: Scientific Method
2: Scientific Theory
3: The Theory of Evolution.

Just wondering if you would like to share :)
Without looking, this is my guess:

Scientific Method:

  1. make an observation
  2. collect as much data as possible
  3. test said data against observation
  4. accept or reject said data

  • if accept, call it a theory and submit for peer review
  • if reject, you're done
Scientific Theory, also called Scientism, is the belief that science is the sole determining factor for truth. If something cannot be subjected to the scientific method, then it should be held in abeyance until it can. Something that truly doesn't exist, such as Santa Claus, will never make it through this process.

The Theory of Evolution is the idea that the sum total of all the alleles of a specific population change [mutate] over time, due to pressures placed on it by the environment. If the mutation is beneficial, the population will survive as a new species; if the mutation is not beneficial, the population will go extinct.
 
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Dizredux

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A few details mostly pedantic and really minor. Look for * for my comments

Without looking, this is my guess:

Scientific Method:

make an observation collect as much data as possible

*Construct an hypothesis*

test said data against observation accept or reject said data *actually you test the hypothesis which might be rejected but not the data.*

if accept, call it a theory and submit for peer review if reject, you're done-*Not always, sometimes, in fact many times, you go back and revise the hypothesis based on the data then repeat the process. Also a theory is usually involved with a number of tests and is the explanation for the data.

Scientific Theory, also called Scientism, is the belief that science is the sole determining factor for truth.

*No this is really not correct. What science uses is what is called methodological naturalism. When doing science only naturalist data is examined. That does not mean that supernatural is not present but just when doing science, it is not considered. That way a devout theist and a convinced atheist can work together and do good science. Might have some interesting conversations in the lunch room though. Scientism (philosophical naturalism) is not usually considered as a part of working science. *

If something cannot be subjected to the scientific method, then it should be held in abeyance until it can.*true* Something that truly doesn't exist, such as Santa Claus, will never make it through this process. *also pretty true*

The Theory of Evolution is the idea that the sum total of all the alleles of a specific population change [mutate] over time, due to pressures placed on it by the environment.

*Again minor details, mutations are not due to pressures from the environment. The random part of mutation is random with respect to needs. They just happen with need not being a part of it.

If the mutation is beneficial, the population will survive as a new species; if the mutation is not beneficial, the population will go extinct.
Pretty close but speciation is not inevitable. It sometimes happens, sometimes not.

You are pretty close with the addition of a few minor details.

Take care,

Dizredux
 
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AV1611VET

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A few details mostly pedantic and really minor. Look for * for my comments

Pretty close but speciation is not inevitable. It sometimes happens, sometimes not.

You are pretty close with the addition of a few minor details.

Take care,

Dizredux
Thank you, sir!
 
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andy b

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the arrogance on here to gotts views is astounding....flat track bullies springs to mind...its strange g0tt gets ridiculed for putting his faith in jesus while some go on an ego trip putting there faith in dawkins or darwin or whoever... i wonder when the clocks ticking down you will be so sure
 
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AV1611VET

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the arrogance on here to gotts views is astounding....flat track bullies springs to mind...its strange g0tt gets ridiculed for putting his faith in jesus while some go on an ego trip putting there faith in dawkins or darwin or whoever... i wonder when the clocks ticking down you will be so sure
Around here, anyone who doesn't fully embrace evolution is a dirt bag.
 
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Old Ned

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Around here, anyone who doesn't fully embrace evolution is a dirt bag.

That is not true to any standard and anyone who thinks or says that is just the pot calling the kettle black.

Also Gotts is not being ridiculed, least not by me.

I think the major conflict from non believers side is the obvious and now proven misconceptions.

Such as you Av, you thanked the poster for the knowledge (I'm assuming) , this is exactly what I was trying to achieve with this thread, clear up the misconceptions. As I've stated, if you chose not to believe Evolution then so be it, but don't disbelieve it based on misinformation, that is not only doing Science an injustice, but yourself as well.
 
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AV1611VET

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As I've stated, if you chose not to believe Evolution then so be it, but don't disbelieve it based on misinformation, that is not only doing Science an injustice, but yourself as well.
I can understand your position, as it works the other way around and is frustrating at times.

But this is what the Bible calls straining at gnats while swallowing camels.

I don't believe in evolution, not because of the details, but because evolution is not the way God did it.

The details don't matter ... therefore getting a detail wrong here or there is no big deal.

Let's suppose I don't believe Jesus was baptized.

Someone asks me where the Bible says He was baptized, and I say I'm pretty sure He was baptized in the Nile river.

The person asking me might then make the wrong assumption that I don't believe Jesus was baptized, because I don't believe He was baptized in the Nile river.

This person might think to himself:

"If I can show him that Jesus was baptized in the Jordan, he just might change his mind."

That's not how it works.

I don't believe in evolution ... not because I'm ignorant of it ... but because I believe in evolution's antithesis: creation.
 
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CabVet

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I can understand your position, as it works the other way around and is frustrating at times.

But this is what the Bible calls straining at gnats while swallowing camels.

I don't believe in evolution, not because of the details, but because evolution is not the way God did it.

The details don't matter ... therefore getting a detail wrong here or there is no big deal.

Let's suppose I don't believe Jesus was baptized.

Someone asks me where the Bible says He was baptized, and I say I'm pretty sure He was baptized in the Nile river.

The person asking me might then make the wrong assumption that I don't believe Jesus was baptized, because I don't believe He was baptized in the Nile river.

This person might think to himself:

"If I can show him that Jesus was baptized in the Jordan, he just might change his mind."

That's not how it works.

I don't believe in evolution ... not because I'm ignorant of it ... but because I believe in evolution's antithesis: creation.

Would it bother you if there were entire groups of people saying that they didn't believe in Jesus because he was baptized in the Nile? Would you feel inclined to correct them even if you knew they weren't going to follow Jesus? What if you corrected someone about this every single day here and that person just came back saying "I don't believe in Jesus because he was baptized in the Nile"?

What if it wasn't just the place where Jesus was baptized? What if people started saying that they didn't believe in Jesus because he was born in Miami? What if people started saying that they didn't believe in Jesus because he was never crucified? Would that bother you?

The things that Gottservant (and many others, yourself included) say here about evolution are as wrong as saying that Jesus lived in the 1920s in New Jersey and giving that as a reason to not believe him.

As I said many times before, I am 100% fine with you rejecting evolution based on faith. Just don't try to create an erroneous version of evolution that is easy to reject so that you can convince others about it. If God changes your heart so much to believe him, it would not matter how much evidence you have for evolution, you would still not believe it, so why does it matter if we have evidence for it or not? And more importantly, why the need to create and spread false information about it?
 
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USincognito

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I'll pass, thank you.

You'd like us to leave, wouldn't you?

So those embracing the physical and life sciences can march around unchecked and spout their Antibiblical rhetoric?

I really don't care what you do or where you go or anything about you. I do care about forum rules and if you'd stop breaking them on a daily basis, then perhaps more people would be more welcoming of your presence.

Respect and become familiar with each forum's Statement of Purpose. Start threads that are relevant to that forum's stated purpose; submit replies that are relevant to the topic of discussion. Off Topic posts will be moved or removed.​
 
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bhsmte

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I hope all of you have learned a valuable lesson: don't respond to his threads.

It has the same effect as when the media gives their attention to Lindsay Lohan. Rather than just fading into irrelevance the attention others give her thrusts her right back into our consciousness.

Couldn't agree more!!!!!!!
 
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Ana the Ist

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So I'm told. What difference does that make?

Many would say I have mental issues, I frequently agree.

But on the whole, he seems honest, just misinformed :)

@Av ... Av me ol' mukka, I did request this thread avoid religion and deities, since the question I posed was about Science.
I realise you like to debate and argue, much like I do, but you can't come into a thread about what Gotts knows about science and preach... well.. you can, it's just a little rude.

When asked what "The Romans" have done for you, you took it and changed the context to "What Romans did for you" .
I'm pretty sure the poster was suggesting the Romans, as in the Race of people and their technological advancements.
You can deny it all you want, but the fact is even the Cross your saviour was nailed to... AND the nails they used were built around the Scientific method, as were his clothes and sandals.
And once again, bashing science on an internet forum is about the height of contradiction and hypocrisy.

@Gotts... I'm still working on replying to your post, just not sure how yet.
Although since this thread has been hijacked, I think it would likely get lost in the thread like many other explanations, which was the point of this thread in the first place. But I'll work on it anyway.

Well, if his mental issues cause him to fixate upon things in an obsessive manner, and keep him from being unable to express himself coherently...it's not entirely his fault that he does what he does.

When I say mental issues,.I mean he sees a psychiatrist/psychologist and takes medication for them...possibly court ordered. You would berate/criticize a mentally [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] person/infant/stroke victim for not understanding something, would you? He has diminished capacity.
 
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AV1611VET

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@Av ... Av me ol' mukka, I did request this thread avoid religion and deities, since the question I posed was about Science.
I realise you like to debate and argue, much like I do, but you can't come into a thread about what Gotts knows about science and preach... well.. you can, it's just a little rude.
You're right, Ned.

My apologies.
 
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Old Ned

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Well, if his mental issues cause him to fixate upon things in an obsessive manner, and keep him from being unable to express himself coherently...it's not entirely his fault that he does what he does.

When I say mental issues,.I mean he sees a psychiatrist/psychologist and takes medication for them...possibly court ordered. You would berate/criticize a mentally [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] person/infant/stroke victim for not understanding something, would you? He has diminished capacity.

Wow you must have potty mouth lol, would love to know what you said there, I'm guessing not a single word of profanity.

Anyway, how and where have I berated or criticized him?
Maybe it's a case of many here see him as some sort of lost cause when it comes to Science, I personally think everyone has the right to be informed, especially when they seem so incredibly interested in the topic.
I'm not out to "Get Gotts" , I like the guy, his ideas show he thinks about things, my wish is to in some small way help him understand that which he seeks.

Just because someone is under the doctor doesn't mean they should be left out. Would you inform a physically disabled person about the rules o f Football if they seemed interested?
Or simply say "Well you can't play, so whats the point?"

This thread didn't come from being fed up with wild ideas from him, it came from actually trying to help him become more knowledgeable on the subject he wishes to debate so he is berated and ridiculed less.
I understand your point, but I'm pretty stubborn and don't give up on people very easily.

@Av... I appreciate he apology. :thumbsup:
 
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Old Ned

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From the top of my head,

Ok Gotts, a couple of things first.
There is no argument here, you posted "If I want to argue that" , don't be so defensive. I was not and am not attacking you.

Below is an explanation of the 3 questions as I know them.
Bare in mind I am not a scientist, not by any stretch, I've never been taught any of this, this is what I have learned from my own research.

Should any of my points be incorrect or unclear, I would appreciate someone with more knowledge to correct/clarify.

Remember, being corrected when the correction is correct, just means you learned something new.

I , like science am happy when I am wrong because it opens up new questions and the possibility of new information and further learning.

Also, this is NOT an attempt to "Convert you", this is simply clarifying what the 3 points actually are.
As Cab said earlier in the thread, the things you say Science says are no different to someone saying Jesus was born in Miami. Whether you believe in Jesus or not, no one ever said he was born in Miami.
The same with Science, much of what you believe Science says... Science never said. It's misinformation, and the point of this thread is to arm you with the facts of what science says. This way when you debate or have questions, you can hit it from real angles instead of wild tangents.

Also bare in mind, this is scratching the surface, it's a very brief explanation of the 3 and much much more detail is evident. But for the purpose of this thread I will try and explain the basics.

Anyway, here goes.... and again, if I have something incorrect, someone with more knowledge (of which there are many on this forum) please correct me :)


Scientific Method...You said...

The scientific method, therefore, is to reduce any query to its working components, establish a systemically reliable way of recreating (ultimately arbitrary) interactions between those components, so as to justify the most useful interpretation of those components in their work as relates to the question. If the question is why do apples fall, then, the scientific method must distinguish apple, fall, and plurality of motion, in the implied context of Earth for which the most useful interpretation is gravity, specifically local gravity, since the distances mentioned are not universe wide in expanse.

Well sort of, you seem to complicate your own ideas.
Scientific Method is basically a way of investigating something to gain new knowledge or clarify old knowledge.
The method will take a hypothesis and perform experiments on it. Much of it is merely observation, but in many cases in order to observe , we must create or recreate the circumstances or environment.
In order for something to be tested by Scientific method, it must be testable and measurable. This is why we cannot test for God, there is nothing to test, nothing to measure.
Remember, Science simply shows what happens, it lets the evidence speak for itself.
Observation, Hypothesis, experiment, measure, repeat.

This is evident in the most simple of things, think about the first to cook meat, no one knows how it happened so lets make up a little story... A couple of cavemen, they just got back from hunting and have themselves a nice hunk of meat. As they gnaw on their raw meat, one of them stands up and trips and drops his meat on the fire, everyone freaks out and his wife is whacking him with the family pet, he grabs the meat out of the fire and figures he may as well eat it anyway. Surprised by the much better taste and texture, he passes it around (Observation). He then starts thinking "What would other meat be like if I threw it on the fire?" (hypothesis) so instead of Mammoth meat, he tries a bird (experiment) , he then wonders what happens if he leaves it longer (hypothesis) so he does it (experiment) and he burns it and realises it tastes bad that way (measurement). He continues to try different times and meats (repeat) Eventually he comes to the idea that different meats taste better when cooked for different lengths of time.... and here we are, pretty much all eating cooked meat.
While the caveman did not know he was performing a scientific experiment using the Scientific method.... that is exactly what he did.

As Richard Dawkins said when asked to validate Scientific Method "It works, calculators calculate, computers compute and planes fly"
The Scientific Method cannot be argued because it is evident in EVERYTHING we own or use.

Scientific Theory... You said...

Maintaining that scientific theory is to be objective such that alternatives generated by the theory are all considered balanced the impartiality of such theory being deliberately but admittedly riskily assumed to be impartial, the point of such theory is to provide as many practical configurations to the working of the components in a given question as would provide the correct interpretation for outcomes either specified or unspecified, from among the valid interpretations generated given varying contexts and interpretation.


Again, more complicated and sort of but not really.
A Scientific Theory is a body of Knowledge, it takes all the Experiments and Test results, all the Hypothesis and Observations and All the Data... put it all together and you have a Scientific Theory.
The Scientific Theory is the Highest title anything in Science can achieve.
It houses all the evidence, the proven facts and the still to be proven hypothesis.
The Theory of Evolution, it contains enough data to stack page by page tall enough to reach the moon... seriously... and that's NOT including the physical evidence such as fossils.
Basically, when something in Science reaches the point of becoming a Theory... you can take it as red that it is a scientific Fact.
The most common misconception is the Philosophical Theory , this is different from a Scientific Theory, a Philosophical theory is nothing more than an idea, your Threads are mostly philosophical theories. If they were Scientific Theories, you would have tested you ideas and come up with evidence and would present this evidence to thousands of others , who would then also test it and come back with the same results you did.

The Theory of Evolution... You said...

The theory of Evolution was proclaimed by Darwin to be an attempt to answer the question, how is Creation by God not obviously suffering (implied with no point)? In other words, if God was Himself to become a part of Creation how would He not suffer? (this is from a quote concerning Evolution and God, I have lost the reference other than to say it was in "the Selection of Preferred Races") At the level of principle, the mistake here is to think that God would excuse Himself from suffering, as a reasoned understanding of suffering is that it produces greater good than would otherwise have been possible if nothing suffered. That said, the question remains useful in that it highlights that regarding suffering as useful requires a leap of faith that can be explained for practical purposes as an action of physical law. The answer Darwin came up with is that species are disposable, change is inevitable, context is variable and outcomes are unpredictable. He put all this together in the context of a competition and concluded that God would challenge Creation to perfect itself over time, before entering into its hardship. This is not true. However, once again it proves useful, this time as an example of how much we lose sight of when we don't expressly do the will of God, which is treat life as valuable, change as predictable, context as focused, and outcomes as a function of choice. This exists together in the context of Heaven on Earth, where everyone cooperates (imagine that for a second). This context, is what the Bible predicts and is that which every believer anticipates with joy.

Ok... I'm just going to say "No"
It's not easy to explain Evolution without going on and on and on. So I will try my best to do this in short.
Evolution is gradual change over time (lots and lots of time) and is the cause of diversity of life, something that adapts to it's surroundings. A random change in the species will either stay or die out depending on whether or not it benefits. The only thing that is random is the mutation itself, once the mutation has taken place, the rest is driven by environmental issues. For example, lets say a group of animals are happily living away, some get eaten by predators and some don't. Then a random mutation causes slightly longer claws in some of them, giving some of the animals the ability to climb trees and get out of the reach of the predator. Those who do not have the longer claws will get eaten first, those with longer claws will climb the trees much more easily and faster and will get eaten last, if at all. As the generations go on, hundreds if not thousands of generations, the claws gradually get longer to help the climbing of trees more efficient. This means the animal with longer claws will survive better and reproduce, passing on the claw gene. Those who never got the gene will eventually all be eaten until the only ones left are the long clawed animals. Or.... the ones without claws will migrate somewhere away from the predator, and once they get there it may mean a similar change such as colour or thickness of hair.

Another example would be the Dolphin, the Dolphin embryo shows the beginnings of rear legs, this is because an ancestor of it walked on land. These rear legs are discarded during the early stages.
Whales also have this and actually develop small bones at the rear, these bones are useless to them now, but the evolutionary change has not taken full effect yet, in another 100,000 years (hypothetical number) they will likely disappear altogether.
Another would be that humans at around 6 months from conception are covered in hair, this would be a gene from one of our ancestors that we reduce because we do not need that much hair, but it reduces differently per person, this is why some of us are hairier than others.
Another example would be that in early stages, Chickens show the ability to grow teeth, again the gene is dormant, but if activated, we could have chickens that bite.
We also have Yoke sacks at early stages, we do not need or use them, it is a throwback from our ancestors who laid eggs.

Evolution is change and adaptation over time, the easiest example of Evolution would be the Evolution of Language. Latin.
Spanish, Italian, Portuguese and French have all evolved from Latin... Yet Latin is not spoken any more in the mainstream.
The Evolution of the Knife, the first knives were made of stone and flint, it went through to be more pointed, sharper edges, then onto iron, steel etc and now we have a multitude of different knives.... None of which are made from Stone or Flint.

A new species is formed when you get what is known as ring species, a species of animal that migrates somewhere, and then again, and again and again, each time leaving some of the originals behind. Each time it moves, it changes slightly (over very long periods of time) due to environmental pressures (selection pressures). Eventually it comes to a point where the newest of the species has altered so much, it can no longer successfully breed with the original species and produce fertile offspring. It has then become a new/different species.
The best explanation of this I've ever seen is the colour wheel. Start the colour wheel at Red, move clockwise gradually changing to Blue. You can see the transitions all the way round... but when you get back round to the top... you have Blue and Red. Clearly 2 different colours.

I hope I worded that clear enough to be understood and again, anyone more knowledgeable, please please correct or add :)
 
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Freodin

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When asked what "The Romans" have done for you, you took it and changed the context to "What Romans did for you" .
I'm pretty sure the poster was suggesting the Romans, as in the Race of people and their technological advancements.
This is what I was referring to. And, as with most of Monty Python, it just fits perfectly.

You can deny it all you want, but the fact is even the Cross your saviour was nailed to... AND the nails they used were built around the Scientific method, as were his clothes and sandals.
And once again, bashing science on an internet forum is about the height of contradiction and hypocrisy.
It is one of AV's standard methods - a Christian standard method: everything is just as I say it is, except when I need it to be different.

Debating is so easy when you just know that God backs up everything you say... and fortunately he never turns up to contradict you.
 
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Old Ned

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is what I was referring to. And, as with most of Monty Python, it just fits perfectly.

Oh I knew what you were getting at, as soon as you said "What did the romans do for you" I instantly heard the crew "WHAT did the romans ever do for us?... well they gave us roads..." etc.. lol classic.:thumbsup:
 
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Ana the Ist

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Wow you must have potty mouth lol, would love to know what you said there, I'm guessing not a single word of profanity.

Anyway, how and where have I berated or criticized him?
Maybe it's a case of many here see him as some sort of lost cause when it comes to Science, I personally think everyone has the right to be informed, especially when they seem so incredibly interested in the topic.
I'm not out to "Get Gotts" , I like the guy, his ideas show he thinks about things, my wish is to in some small way help him understand that which he seeks.

Just because someone is under the doctor doesn't mean they should be left out. Would you inform a physically disabled person about the rules o f Football if they seemed interested?
Or simply say "Well you can't play, so whats the point?"

This thread didn't come from being fed up with wild ideas from him, it came from actually trying to help him become more knowledgeable on the subject he wishes to debate so he is berated and ridiculed less.
I understand your point, but I'm pretty stubborn and don't give up on people very easily.

@Av... I appreciate he apology. :thumbsup:

Criticize and berate were the wrong words (speaking of words, no, I didn't swear) you'll have to forgive me, it was late, and my brain was functioning on empty. What you're asking of ole' Gottsy in the OP appears beyond him. I've seen posts from him (when it seemed he must be "better") where about 95% of the post was coherent and understandable...but those are far and few between. What you see on this section pertaining to evolution is what you normally get outta him.

Seeing as how you aren't trying to criticize, what did you hope to accomplish with the OP? Evolution is Gotts' white whale....you aren't going to be able to talk him out of his posts/feelings about evolution. You can't explain things to him and reach some level of understanding. IMO, Gottsy believes he understands evolution on some esoteric level that you, I, and everyone else doesn't understand. When he posts his questions, he thinks he's going to get you to see things his way, when he doesn't...he gets frustrated and tries another question. It's much the same process as the casual poster who stumbles across a Gotts' thread for the first time. They.see the crazy question, read it, respond to it thinking they've explained things about evolution in a way that's helpful to Gotts...then get frustrated when they realize absolutely none of it stuck. Some realize quickly they can't help this person and move on...others think they'll be able to get through to him if they just repeat it enough, say it a little differently, show they care, etc. Gottsy doesn't care about all that though. He just wonders why you don't understand him and he moves on. (Sometimes, I think he does think we understand him and our answers are just avoiding his "truth" to antagonize him)

So again, what did you hope to accomplish.with the OP?
 
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