A Request for Gottservant

[Old Ned]

So again, what did you hope to accomplish.with the OP?

I stated the answer to that in my OP.
I personally wanted a breakdown of what he knows/thinks.

This provided any who read it of an understanding of what he thinks the basics are and gives us some insight into where his posts come from and what they are based on.

I am not trying to convert him as I've said many times, I am simply attempting to help him understand what Science actually says.

While some give up and think others are blindly trying to help, I guess that would make me the blindly trying to help.

But you know what, it's my time and my effort, I've asked nothing of anyone else other than to correct what I state as true if I am incorrect.

I get the feeling you think by me creating this thread I have opened him up to another volley of abuse, but by the same token I feel that most members here are adult enough not to succumb to that.

Also I like the way you describe his thought processes and I admit to agreeing with you. But until I feel I have exhausted all my possible avenues, I will continue unless he personally asks me to stop. Or it proves to be hurting or upsetting him in some way.

I appreciate your concern for me wasting my time and I understand fully what you are saying.
You speak about him like he's lost in a world truly blocked off to reality, maybe he is, but it is possible if that's the case to break through, all you need is a crack in the dam for the water to flow.
Believe it or not, I actually understand his thought process in his posts, I've spent my entire life coming up with wild ideas about various things and have stuck to my guns, getting frustrated because I can't word it the way I mean it, I think he has the same issue.

But fundamentally, he shows too much interest in Evolution for it to be just a passing phase, I believe he wants to learn what it is but is afraid to do so.
Overcoming fear is mans toughest challenge, unfortunately fear is what holds us back the most.

Thanks for the insight and opinions though

 

[Gottservant]

Well, thanks for defending me.

I read what you wrote, you basically want to describe science as "trial and error" instead of "focus and construction" which is the model I presented to you.

You then translate "trial and error" into "watch and learn" through time, while butchering my opinion of my ancestors, my future and my ability to adapt, all in the name of Evolution. Except that you conveniently leave the issue of conversion up to me, with a clear railroad into Evolution as my only way out. Sorry: fail.

If Evolution is believable at all, it provides a choice. That is what I am looking for. Not to compromise my differences from others is precisely the point, and the fact that you took time to defend me, will mean you see that point precisely.

The problem is, you can easily construct a theory around idiocy, beg the question, broaden the scope of application to all of time and negate people's attempts to imply anything from motive, to volition, to morals and you will have a near impenetrable fortress of denial, from which nothing will ever emerge. I mean really, if I said to you "hey you have cars, but I've invented carness, which you've never heard before, right, so now all your cars belong to me" are you going to say "ok, you know the future of cars better than us, here are the keys to our automobile lives" yet that is precisely the attitude of most Evolutionists towards Creationists.

No, I think Evolution is an attempt to pass the living dead off as thinking and therefore worthy candidates for free authority, which seems popular to the mentally handicapped who would otherwise get nothing, but ultimately reeks of scam, smoke and mirrors.

Take "populations evolve not individuals" what kind of a freak statement is that? Whereever there are populations there are individuals, I might as well say whereever there are arms there are no legs. You don't get that that is patently ridiculous? Yet to whoever thought it, it seems like the best thing ever, because everybody who is somebody to Evolution now repeats it.

You are choosing an embarassing crowd to hang out with.

 

[RealityCheck]

Well, thanks for defending me.

I read what you wrote, you basically want to describe science as "trial and error" instead of "focus and construction" which is the model I presented to you.

You then translate "trial and error" into "watch and learn" through time, while butchering my opinion of my ancestors, my future and my ability to adapt, all in the name of Evolution. Except that you conveniently leave the issue of conversion up to me, with a clear railroad into Evolution as my only way out. Sorry: fail.

If Evolution is believable at all, it provides a choice. That is what I am looking for. Not to compromise my differences from others is precisely the point, and the fact that you took time to defend me, will mean you see that point precisely.

The problem is, you can easily construct a theory around idiocy, beg the question, broaden the scope of application to all of time and negate people's attempts to imply anything from motive, to volition, to morals and you will have a near impenetrable fortress of denial, from which nothing will ever emerge. I mean really, if I said to you "hey you have cars, but I've invented carness, which you've never heard before, right, so now all your cars belong to me" are you going to say "ok, you know the future of cars better than us, here are the keys to our automobile lives" yet that is precisely the attitude of most Evolutionists towards Creationists.

No, I think Evolution is an attempt to pass the living dead off as thinking and therefore worthy candidates for free authority, which seems popular to the mentally handicapped who would otherwise get nothing, but ultimately reeks of scam, smoke and mirrors.

Take "populations evolve not individuals" what kind of a freak statement is that? Whereever there are populations there are individuals, I might as well say whereever there are arms there are no legs. You don't get that that is patently ridiculous? Yet to whoever thought it, it seems like the best thing ever, because everybody who is somebody to Evolution now repeats it.

You are choosing an embarassing crowd to hang out with.

Im sorry but this is largely incomprehensible. Do you even understand what you wrote??

 

[Gottservant]

Im sorry but this is largely incomprehensible. Do you even understand what you wrote??

My writing is not for those who expect what I say to fall into conventional patterns.

Is there something about understanding people that you think has to be predictable?

 

[PsychoSarah]

My writing is not for those who expect what I say to fall into conventional patterns.

Is there something about understanding people that you think has to be predictable?

If you want answers to your questions, you have to make sure your question is written in a sensible way. People can't answer a question when they can't tell what it is asking.

 

[Old Ned]

Well, thanks for defending me.

No need to thank me. I do not require thanks. But you are more than welcome.

I read what you wrote.

I'm not so sure you read it without changing it in your own mind.
I would recommend you read it again and not take it offensively, as it was not meant offensively or anything other than offering information attempting to describe the definition of the point I chose.
It's not opinion. These are what they are, whether you believe if they actually work or such, the definitions cannot be argued any more than any other word in the English language or any other term in Science.
Red is red, it is not called blue, if you call red, blue, people will think you mean blue... not red.
Scientific Method
Scientific Theory
The Theory of Evolution.

It doesn't matter whether you like or believe what they stand for is true or real or anything else... but those words, put together as written above, mean what they are defined as, which I tried to explain clearly, obviously not very well, for which I apologise.
But the true definitions of them are what they are and are not arguable any more than Red is Red and Blue is Blue.
Tomatoes are not Cars, Birds are not T.V's and Evolution is not what you think it is.

You also said I "Butchered" your "opinion' of your ancestors.
Would you mind explaining this statement? as I do not know what you are referring to and meant no offence and would be more than willing to apologise if you could point out where I did this "Butchering"

"trial and error" into "

This is the only thing you typed that had anything to do with my post.

You are choosing an embarassing crowd to hang out with.

If you are talking about Scientists and "hanging out" metaphorically... then I do not find people who are the very reason you and I are communicating while sitting in our comfy warm homes, having eaten food we enjoy and drinking clean fluids if we so choose and wearing our comfy clothes and feeling all clean from the bath or shower we had, cleaning ourselves with the soap and brushing our teeth with fresh minty goodness after a good nights sleep and some great breakfast pulled out of the fridge and transported to..... see where I'm going with this.... THESE men and women are the hero's of humanity, without them we would still be banging rocks together... WHICH IS STILL SCIENCE!

I'm extremely proud of "My Crowd" and aspire to do half the good they do... they are also the sole reason your bible exists in a physical form.

Which brings me to my last point about your post... it lead me to defend, meaning your post was an attack. A Defensive attack.

Why? All I did was explain the definitions of 3 things.

 

[Gottservant]

A rebuff, is not an attack.

You haven't addressed the difference between "trial and error" and "focus and construction", you still think my ancestors were monkeys and the good that science does is wholly dependent on there being working processes for them to examine, laws that allow those things to interact consistently, and words that reinforce the good that making those things interact brings about. I am stuck on point three of the last remark, because at the moment, all I am actually expected to do is accept Evolution, which is an insult.

So really you are lucky all you got was a rebuff.

Try to be friendly now, tell me why you like making mistakes so much, but never admit you sin... how do you actually do that?

 

[Old Ned]

You haven't addressed the difference between "trial and error" and "focus and construction"

Well, trial and error would be where you try something, note the results and try it again with changes based on those results. Keep repeating until you either exhaust all possibilities and declare it currently impossible, or discover a successful result.

Focus and Construction would be concentrating on something and building it.

, you still think my ancestors were monkeys

I take great offence to that.
I have never ONCE stated humans evolve from monkeys. In fact I have stated a number of times that is most definitely NOT the case.

I have also stated that is one of the things Creationists are misinformed about so much it frustrates me. Evolution has never stated "We come from monkeys"
Because we don't. We share a common ancestor, there is a huge difference.

and the good that science does is wholly dependent on there being working processes for them to examine, laws that allow those things to interact consistently, and words that reinforce the good that making those things interact brings about.

EVERYTHING you see, use and consume that is man made is the direct result of the Scientific method.
This includes making a fire to boiling water to knives, computers, cars, shoes, glasses, make up.... everything!

You seem to be saying that science doesn't work... then explain the above statement.

Oh yeah... ALL the medicine you receive and your family and me and everyone who ever got medical treatment... owes their relief/cure/help ... to science.

I am stuck on point three of the last remark, because at the moment, all I am actually expected to do is accept Evolution, which is an insult.

Once again proves you did not read my post properly or fully.
I stated that you do not have to "Accept" evolution, but I was tring to explain to you what it is.
You can explain to me all day long about how cinnamon grows and how good for you it is and you could teach me everything there is to know about cinnamon... but I still wont like it.

You don't have to accept or believe anything, except the definition of what it is and the explanation of how it works.
Once you can demonstrate your grasp of it, THEN you can proudly go into a debate against it, not only because you will know more about your enemy, but you wont constantly get corrected in the claims, you claim science makes.

Try to be friendly now, tell me why you like making mistakes so much, but never admit you sin... how do you actually do that?

I make mistakes everyday, I'm human, I'm far from perfect and I most certainly wasn't intelligently designed since I have too many flaws.

Sin as written by the bible? am I willing to admit I sin according to the bible?... absolutely. Everyday. I curse and swear and take the lords name in vain and have Poseidon tattooed on my arm, so I definitely have another god before him.... and likely come under some of the others too in some way.
I live with my good lady, we are not married and I look at her lustfully frequently.
Does that make me bad?... well most people like to poke fun at me because I'm "too nice for my own good" and that I have "White Knight syndrome" and such like.
As a lifeguard, I saved 19 lives.

Back to you my friend

 

[Gottservant]

A lifeguard? Well, if you've saved a life Heaven is definitely waiting for you, though naturally you would just want to trash the place if you didn't feel that you deserved to be there.

As to what you are saying, look, what God saves changes over time ok? Going to believe in God now? Because I said so in an Evolutionary way? No? So you see my point then? No? Because you want me to understand what? I just said that God saves different people in different ways, is that not enough?

The problem is actually, that you think this goes on forever, that we just abandon what we've become and we never think twice about how much Hell this would create if it were actually true. The reality is, the differences in what God saves from one generation to the next, do not vary that much, nor will they ever vary that much. It is therefore completely not beyond God's reasoning to know when people are sinning and when they are being innocent.

You try to learn from that.

Not to insult you, but there are limitations enforced by physical law that cannot be overcome by invoking Evolution. Trees never grow beyond a certain physical height because its physically impossible, if you say to a tree, "Ah! But you're evolved" who looks like a moron, not the tree! The tree couldn't give a whit how evolved it is, it is not going to grow another inch.

Perhaps now you see what kind of faith (like the tree) I actually have.

 

[RealityCheck]

A lifeguard? Well, if you've saved a life Heaven is definitely waiting for you, though naturally you would just want to trash the place if you didn't feel that you deserved to be there.

As to what you are saying, look, what God saves changes over time ok? Going to believe in God now? Because I said so in an Evolutionary way? No? So you see my point then? No? Because you want me to understand what? I just said that God saves different people in different ways, is that not enough?

The problem is actually, that you think this goes on forever, that we just abandon what we've become and we never think twice about how much Hell this would create if it were actually true. The reality is, the differences in what God saves from one generation to the next, do not vary that much, nor will they ever vary that much. It is therefore completely not beyond God's reasoning to know when people are sinning and when they are being innocent.

You try to learn from that.

Not to insult you, but there are limitations enforced by physical law that cannot be overcome by invoking Evolution. Trees never grow beyond a certain physical height because its physically impossible, if you say to a tree, "Ah! But you're evolved" who looks like a moron, not the tree! The tree couldn't give a whit how evolved it is, it is not going to grow another inch.

Perhaps now you see what kind of faith (like the tree) I actually have.

Trees have faith?

Or are you saying your faith can't grow beyond what it already is?

 

[Old Ned]

A lifeguard? Well, if you've saved a life Heaven is definitely waiting for you, though naturally you would just want to trash the place if you didn't feel that you deserved to be there.

Ok firstly, saving lives gets me into heaven? I had no idea, I did it and in several of those cases when off duty since I lived by the beach and was often there... I did it because I had the strength, knowledge and fitness to do it... but more so because I would risk my life to save another human in many situations, as would many of the non believers on here.
And not one of us did it or would do it in the hope we get into heaven.

Now tell me Atheists are immoral.

Secondly, why on Earth would I trash heaven?
I don't think I'd feel like I didn't deserve to be there, but lets say that was true... why would I trash it?... I have respect for things Gotts, why do you suspect I do not?
That's a little insulting once again.

As to what you are saying, look, what God saves changes over time ok? Going to believe in God now? Because I said so in an Evolutionary way? No? So you see my point then? No? Because you want me to understand what? I just said that God saves different people in different ways, is that not enough?

That's what I used to believe Gotts, that God made it all happen.
Then I stopped being afraid to look for other answers and possibilities... ones that make infinitely more sense, and I don't have to fear burning in hell forever for looking at the love of my life lustfully.

The reality is, the differences in what God saves from one generation to the next, do not vary that much, nor will they ever vary that much.

finally!! You're getting it!! I made a crack
You just described part of Evolution, the fact you put God into it makes no difference, but you just described how evolution basic process works... Change over Time, not really noticeable in individual generations but keeps going.
The end bit is off though, eventually they will vary considerably.

You and a Cousin share a great x 100 grandfather... do you look like your cousins?... do you think either of you look like a relative from 4000 years ago?

It is therefore completely not beyond God's reasoning to know when people are sinning and when they are being innocent.

You try to learn from that.

There's nothing to learn except that some dude is watching me in case I make a mistake and then will send me to eternal hell and damnation.

Not to insult you, but there are limitations enforced by physical law that cannot be overcome by invoking Evolution.

Invoking Evolution?

Trees never grow beyond a certain physical height because its physically impossible, if you say to a tree, "Ah! But you're evolved" who looks like a moron, not the tree! The tree couldn't give a whit how evolved it is, it is not going to grow another inch.

It doesn't matter what you say to a tree, the very fact you are talking to a tree would make you look like a moron.

And of course the tree doesn't care it evolved, tree's don't think!
Animals don't care they evolved, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Do you remember caring about your first lock of hair you grew?... no??... so therefore it didn't happen?

Perhaps now you see what kind of faith (like the tree) I actually have.

Gotts... please read this carefully.
I do not need or want you to "Accept" evolution.
I would just like to see you understand what it is, this would actually benefit YOU because as I said... the more you know about it, the easier you can debate it and the less you would be ridiculed.

The greatest fighter, knows his enemy well.

 

[Gottservant]

Trees have faith?

Or are you saying your faith can't grow beyond what it already is?

That's correct, my faith is I have encountered the inevitable, it now therefore makes no difference whether you tell me more is possible or not.