A Reminder About Abortion

[fiveinjuly]

Well said...

 

[fluffy_rainbow]

It's hard to draw the line when it comes to which abortions should be legal and which ones should not. Do you know how many desperate women would say "I was raped" even if they weren't just to procure and abortion procedure?

One thing that makes me angry is when choicers say "you lifers want to make pregnancy a punishment for having sex!" when it was really the pro-choice side who convinced women that pregnancy was like rape against your body. That you don't have to give up your life for some "blob of cells". That pregnancy is something to be looked upon with disdain. That pregnancy is degrading. I hate it when I say something about the consequences of sex and someone fires back with "Oh that's nice. You want a child to be a consequence?" as if it was me who has devalued human life.

 

[fiveinjuly]

Very true and very well put. I think that people just want to see all of the bad that they forget...

 

[katelyn]

I think you should use the best available scientific knowledge to decide when humanity "happens" (for lack of a better word) and set the point there. Before then a woman can do whatever she wants, afterwords it's illegal- with exceptions for the mothers life, if the child has severe problems, and possibly exceptions in the case of rape/incest.

But, whatever scientific knowledge provides us, it is only a guess, and a guess that obviously not everyone agrees with. So why chance that women "might" be killing a human life for the sake of convenience?

 

[Grunt]

Instead of worring about in which cases abortion might be acceptable, work to stop it from happening in situations that clearly aren't.

Unfortunately most people aren't willing to do that. Choicers fear that placing heavier restrictions on it than already exist gives an opening to completely ban it. Lifers fear that by giving in slightly to their "no abortion, period" stance (even if it's to concentrate on banning the clearly wrong parts) they'll weaken their position and hopes of a complete ban.

On top of that, abortion is an issue where moderate views are few and far between. With the two predominant extremist views of "clearly wrong" being nearly the opposite of each other, it's less likely to succeed.

But, whatever scientific knowledge provides us, it is only a guess, and a guess that obviously not everyone agrees with. So why chance that women "might" be killing a human life for the sake of convenience?

All of life is a calculated risk. I believe that God gave us science for a reason- and all we can do with it is make the best guess with what knowledge we have.

To be honest (boy I'm going to take heat for this), I don't think abortion is all that high on God's Totem Pole of Importance™. If that baby is a human with a soul, then it goes straight into His arms. In a way, I envy it. If the woman deserves some punishment or the like, that's God's perogative, not ours. I think that he would much prefer that this time, energy and passion be devoted to those who are already here. Every second, they're the ones coming closer to being lost forever. Maybe it is on our heads if unborn children are killed when they shouldn't be, but it is also on our heads for ignoring the lost of this world, who should be our first priority.

 

[katelyn]

If that baby is a human with a soul, then it goes straight into His arms. In a way, I envy it. If the woman deserves some punishment or the like, that's God's perogative, not ours.

So, it would be no big deal to you if you or a loved one was murdered? After all, you/they go straight into His arms...

I think that he would much prefer that this time, energy and passion be devoted to those who are already here.

The best place to start is with yourself. What I mean is, you're spending as much time debating this as anyone else here.

Maybe it is on our heads if unborn children are killed when they shouldn't be, but it is also on our heads for ignoring the lost of this world, who should be our first priority.

But wanting to save the unborn and helping the lost of this world can and often does go hand in hand. There are plenty of pro-lifers who give of their time and energy at places like crisis pregnancy centers counseling and providing hope to the lost.

 

[Grunt]

So, it would be no big deal to you if you or a loved one was murdered? After all, you/they go straight into His arms...

Heh, well, if I'm murdered I wouldn't really be capable of caring. Anyway, I'd have already lost that fight, so it would be none of my concern anymore.

A loved one, though, is a different context from abortion
1. As far as "going to His arms," there are only a very few people that I know well enough to feel that I have any basis to make that judgement, and most of my loved ones don't fall into that group.
2. A loved one is an established life, that is already well past the beginning of humanity.

The best place to start is with yourself. What I mean is, you're spending as much time debating this as anyone else here.

Touche! However, what I was referring to primarily was the campaigning, lobbying, ads and other things that are always ongoing, not merely arguing on the internet.

But wanting to save the unborn and helping the lost of this world can and often does go hand in hand. There are plenty of pro-lifers who give of their time and energy at places like crisis pregnancy centers counseling and providing hope to the lost.

And the people who do that aren't the ones I'm referring to. Every results in a trade-off. Which is really the best use of our limited time?

 

[fiveinjuly]

 

[katelyn]

Heh, well, if I'm murdered I wouldn't really be capable of caring. Anyway, I'd have already lost that fight, so it would be none of my concern anymore.

True.

A loved one, though, is a different context from abortion
1. As far as "going to His arms," there are only a very few people that I know well enough to feel that I have any basis to make that judgement, and most of my loved ones don't fall into that group.
2. A loved one is an established life, that is already well past the beginning of humanity.

I maintain that we can't really judge when the beginning of humanity occurs. Also, as far as being able to care about a child in what you maintain as that "gray" area where it may not be a life, going through pregnancy and also knowing women who have suffered miscarriages, I know that even if you think they may not be a life, they are still considered loved ones to many. Also, would you consider, say, a three month old to be a loved one? They aren't far past the beginning of humanity, nor is their brain development complete (so are they not yet "completely" human?). Are they far enough past the "beginning of humanity" to count?

Also, what do you think about double-murder charges when a pregnant woman is killed? It's strange to me that a woman can kill the life growing inside of her and it's "her right," but as soon as someone else does it, it's murder. To me this implicitly says that a woman has the right to murder her unborn child, and goes against the arguments that it's "not a life."

 

[Multi-Elis]

I have some problems with the story you told. How can you say she didn't know any better?

Because based on many clues including her writing, style and expression of regret, and confusion, I am quite certain that though she's a christian she was quite confused and weak before having sex. If you like, she could have used counseling before, long before, but so could half the teens. When I was a teenager I needed psychological treatment, but I was so scared of what I'd have to reveal to a psychologist, that I just clamped down.

Also her mother may have been pressuring her to, but did she force her?

She doesn't want to have an abortion but at her age and with her confusion, pressure is a lot more than what you can imagine untill you've lived through it.

if her mother has kicked her out of the house, she could go to her friends or other relatives, she could go into temporary foster care.

Apparently, her mother had her outside marriage too, so she doesn't feel she can trust her foster father's side of the family, and she might not have contact with her other relatives, and is not in any psychological state to make the bold step of making contacts with them. She doesn't really have any trust-worthy friends. (I had none to whom I could run to in situations like that, all last year). As for foster homes, she probably doesn't know anything about it and how to get to one. Part of the budget I propose would go to advertisement campanes to allow girls to know that they have an alternative. Even I wouldn't know where to look for a foster home where I live and I'm no longer a teenager.

At least in Canada we have child help lines that any kid can call and talk about there problems, and get advice.

This is nice but how many people know about it? And what will they advise her to do? Will they help her get into a foster home? but they are distant and impersonnal. I think that there is a lot of room here for her school psychologist to help, I don't know why he/she is not helping. In my old highschool there was not much they did.

killing her child because of the decisions that she made is no solution.

Abortion is the easy way out, the lazy way out, and the one that avoids the most amount of pain in the beginning (but ends up giving more pain in the end) Why can't we make it easier for people to make the right choice, the one that demands putting up with 9 months of legitimate pain, the one that takes the most amount of effort on the part of all of us, and the only one that will bring peace of mind in the end?

The solution I propose though, would need an enormous advertising budget, and a reform in the counseling services, because for example in France, where the Day-After pill exists, doctors at my university (and we HAVE to have an appointment every year) HAVE to tell all girls about this pill and how it's free, and how they should take it so that they don't "have to have to have an abortion". Implying that that is the only solution. What i'm proposing is that all counselors would HAVE to talk about other options in practical terms so that if a girl wants to keep her baby she can do so with the least amount of pressure from those who would like to make the choices for her. This, ladies and gentlemen, is the only effective fight I can see against abortion, where illigal abortions will just take the place of legal ones once outlawed.

 

[Kirley]

I am stil unsure myself about the 'after morning pill' or wateva its called... i dont know weather it should b used or not either for that 'is it abortion' issue.. but i figure, (for taking that pill or having an abortion) that if u were careless to go and get pregnant without expecting that to happen then you should rewrite how you think, act and ur priorities... Pregnancy is supposed to be a gift after having sexual intercourse... and it is an act of love to become pregnant. Even out of the worst of situations (ie rape) ppl are disposing of that gift, wen it can bring benefits to the parents life.. they are only causing themselves grief in the long run. Ppl think of pregnancy as a consequence of sex nowadays cuz the have sex outside of marriage becuz they want they want their life to be good now and dont expect to become pregnant, becuz this baby was not planned its going to ruin their life and they have to do sumthing about it quick.. Yes altho i am against abortion i think it would help if they have more places {that are known about} for girls once they get pregnant to help them and then it may may reduce the amount of abortions becuz girls know that there is an alternative.

 

[Word of Peace]

[size=-1]"It is a poverty to decide that a child must die so that you may live as you wish." -- Mother Teresa[/size]

 

[Grunt]

I maintain that we can't really judge when the beginning of humanity occurs.

No, we can't. But it's a circumstance where we have to try and do the best we can.

Also, as far as being able to care about a child in what you maintain as that "gray" area where it may not be a life, going through pregnancy and also knowing women who have suffered miscarriages, I know that even if you think they may not be a life, they are still considered loved ones to many.

Yes, and if it were my child I would view it as a loved one from the moment I knew it existed. Love, however, is a relative idea. I know some people who love their dog more than their kids. Laws can't be based on something like that. It's really a moot point, since I don't think anyone who views it that way would be wanting an abortion except under extreme circumstances.

Also, would you consider, say, a three month old to be a loved one? They aren't far past the beginning of humanity, nor is their brain development complete (so are they not yet "completely" human?). Are they far enough past the "beginning of humanity" to count?

Being past it is all that matters. It's not possible to be halfway human.

Also, what do you think about double-murder charges when a pregnant woman is killed? It's strange to me that a woman can kill the life growing inside of her and it's "her right," but as soon as someone else does it, it's murder. To me this implicitly says that a woman has the right to murder her unborn child, and goes against the arguments that it's "not a life."

If it's past the "life" point, it's murder (probably second or third degree murder in most cases). If before, then it's not. There should be some charge for it, IMO, but that's really getting out of my area of knowledge.

 

[katelyn]

Being past it is all that matters. It's not possible to be halfway human.

Right, but when we're somewhat arbitrarily setting the point where we regard it as "life," it seems like it would be fairly easy for someone to come along and change what that point is. It worries me that what happens to be convenient for people at the time could influence their decision in setting that point.

Granted, you could say that my pro-life "agenda" is what causes me to regard life as starting at fertilization, but again, when it's a life and death situation, I prefer to err on the side of caution.

 

[Grunt]

Right, but when we're somewhat arbitrarily setting the point where we regard it as "life," it seems like it would be fairly easy for someone to come along and change what that point is. It worries me that what happens to be convenient for people at the time could influence their decision in setting that point.

If it's decided scientifically, then it should only change when there is sufficient scientific evidence to support such a change.

Of course, this is also why things will never happen that way.