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A Reasoned Case Against Impeachment

civilwarbuff

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There is an abundance of evidence, which people have already mentioned.
Unfortunately you take a quick look and "That doesn't look like anything to me" goes through your mind and then you keep asking for evidence.
And everyone who has responded to me about this request says almost the exact same thing you are saying. The fact is, there is no substantiated evidence there is only 2nd and 3rd hand allegations where witnesses contradict each other and even themselves.
But maybe with enough hoping and wishing upon a star (and some fairies and pixie dust and maybe even a cricket or 2) the dream of Schiff & Co. will come true.
 
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stevil

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And everyone who has responded to me about this request says almost the exact same thing you are saying. The fact is, there is no substantiated evidence there is only 2nd and 3rd hand allegations where witnesses contradict each other and even themselves.
There was one contradiction..
But after the testimonies came out Sondland changed his story and now agrees with all other witnesses that there was a Quid Pro Quo. A condition on the aid release for personal gain.
 
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civilwarbuff

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essentialsaltes

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So, it comes down to was he lying then or is he lying now?

Sondland didn't lie then. He didn't recall the phone conversation. After hearing other people's testimony, his memory improved.
 
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stevil

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This conversation that Sondland had with Trump was after Trump and his co-conspirators got caught with their hands in the cookie jar.

Trump's statement that there was no quid pro quo and that he wanted nothing is his coverup attempt.
He was hoping that Sondland would then testify that this was Trump's stance all along on this.

But it is too late to do that. Too late to say that there were no conditions (after you are already caught), when all the pressure was being put on Ukraine (before they got caught), everyone was coming to the conclusion that the release of aid was contingent on a public announcement of an investigation into the Bidens. All the testimonies are consistent, from all the people that were allowed to testify, and were directly involved in USA/Ukraine affairs.

No-one has testified otherwise. No-one has testified in Trump's defense. No plausible defence has been presented.
 
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civilwarbuff

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If only Trump could personally appoint people with better memories.
Must be all those hotels he has to remember....crowding out the more mundane things like the president said he wanted a quid pro quo.....understandable.
 
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civilwarbuff

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This conversation that Sondland had with Trump was after Trump and his co-conspirators got caught with their hands in the cookie jar.

Trump's statement that there was no quid pro quo and that he wanted nothing is his coverup attempt.
He was hoping that Sondland would then testify that this was Trump's stance all along on this.

But it is too late to do that. Too late to say that there were no conditions (after you are already caught), when all the pressure was being put on Ukraine (before they got caught), everyone was coming to the conclusion that the release of aid was contingent on a public announcement of an investigation into the Bidens. All the testimonies are consistent, from all the people that were allowed to testify, and were directly involved in USA/Ukraine affairs.

No-one has testified otherwise. No-one has testified in Trump's defense. No plausible defence has been presented.
How do you defend yourself against something that never happened? Obviously just people saying it didn't happen is not good enough.
Sondland still vehemently agrees no quid pro quo
 
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stevil

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How do you defend yourself against something that never happened? Obviously just people saying it didn't happen is not good enough.
Sondland still vehemently agrees no quid pro quo
Where do you get your information from?

Sondland testified that there was a quid pro quo.
He testified that everyone knew there was a quid pro quo.
 
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stevil

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How do you defend yourself against something that never happened?
You follow the trail.
Many people have testified that Trump told them to talk to Guliani, Many people have testified that Guliani stated that the aid release is contingent on a public announcement of investigation into Bidens.

So have Guliani testify.
Also have Mulvaney testify and Pompeo and Bolton.
 
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civilwarbuff

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Where do you get your information from?

Sondland testified that there was a quid pro quo.
He testified that everyone knew there was a quid pro quo.
But he never testified that he heard Trump say so.....he only presumed that is what was wanted.....
 
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civilwarbuff

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Many people have testified that Guliani stated that the aid release is contingent on a public announcement of investigation into Bidens.
Do you have citations for that cuz I have not seen any testimony to that effect.
 
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civilwarbuff

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more from Turley's statement.....pg 24
At the outset, however, two threshold issuesare worth noting.First, this hearing is being held before any specific articles have been proposed. During the Clinton impeachment hearing, we were given a clear idea of the expected articles of impeachment and far greater time to prepare analysis of those allegations. The House leadership has repeatedly indicated that they are proceeding on the Ukrainian controversy and not the various alleged violations or crimes alleged during the Russian investigation. Recently, however, Chairman Schiff indicated that there might be additional allegations raised while continuing to reference the end of December as the working date for an impeachment vote. Thus, we are being asked to offer a sincereanalysis on the grounds for impeachment while being left in the dark. My testimony is based on the public statements regarding the Ukrainian matter, which contain references to four alleged crimes and, most recently, a possible compromise proposal for censure.Second, the crimes discussed below were recently raised as part of the House Intelligence Committee hearings as alternatives to the initial framework as an abuse of power. There may be a desireto refashion these facts into crimes with higher resonance with voters,such as bribery. In any case, Chairman Schiff and committee members began to specifically ask witnesses about elements that were pulled from criminal cases. When some of us noted that courts have rejected these broader interpretations or that there are missing elements for these crimes, advocates immediately shiftedto apositionthat it really does not matter because “this is an impeachment.” This allows members to claim criminal acts while dismissing the need to actually support such allegations. If that were the case, members could simply claim any crime from treason to genocide.Whileimpeachment does encompass non-crimes, including abuse of power, past impeachments have largely been structured around criminal definitions. The reason is simple and obvious. The impeachment standard was designed to be a high bar and felonies often were treated as inherently grave and serious. Legal definitions and case law also offeran objective and reliable point of reference for judging the conductof judicial and executive officers. It is unfair to claim there isa clear case of a crime like bribery and simultaneously dismiss any need to substantiate such a claim under the controlling definitions and meaning of that crime. After all, the common mantra that “no one is above the law” is a reference to the law applied to all citizens, even presidents.If the House does not have the evidence to support a claim of a criminal act, it should either develop such evidence or abandon the claim. As noted below, abandoning such claims would still leave abuse of powerasa viable ground for impeachment. It justmustbe proven.
 
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civilwarbuff

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As I stated earlier, that statement by Trump to Sondland was after he was already caught. It was part of his coverup.
and he stated there was no quid pro quo....simple as that. You can believe him or not.
 
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essentialsaltes

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But he never testified that he heard Trump say so.....he only presumed that is what was wanted.....

We could hear from Mulvaney at OMB who blocked the funds, and takes his orders from Trump, if only Trump wasn't preventing him from testifying.

and he stated there was no quid pro quo....simple as that.

As people have already pointed out, he stated there WAS a quid pro quo. Now feel free to go back to #52, but really you should stop making this false statement.
 
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stevil

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and he stated there was no quid pro quo....simple as that. You can believe him or not.
If the police capture a murderer and take him back to the police station and ask him if he murdered someone, then the murder says "no, I didn't murder anyone".
Are the police to let him go? Simple as that?
 
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civilwarbuff

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As people have already pointed out, he stated there WAS a quid pro quo. Now feel free to go back to #52, but really you should stop making this false statement.
Enough with the false statement crap.....
Now if you don't understand this video then there is nothing I can do to help you......
From 11/20
 
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