A re-examination of nothing (2)

Phinehas2 · Feb 22, 2008

The 'promiscuous man' argument falls short against 'pornoi' which is mentioned earlier in the verse, and there is no reason to believe paul is being redundant here.

Exactly. In Matthew 19 and Mark 10 we see Jesus re-affirming God's creation purpose of the union of man and woman Gen 2, and that fornication (pornos) breaks this. Adultery (moichos) is unions with other women and unfaithfulness. The Pharisees found this having to be faithful hard, but Jesus offers them an alternative, celibacy whether born that way, made that way by men or chosen that way for the Kingdom.
So it makes no difference really whether arsenokoites means homosexual practice or not, any sex outside the marriage union is error.. see Matt 15 and Mark 7.
There is no doubt however that when 1 Tim 1 refers to the law, arsen and koites stand out in the Septuagint Leve 18 7 20 and 'male' 'beds' (fam) becomes clear.

It is really difficult for anyone to propose anything better as a translation and meaning either etymologically or in context.
Which just goes to show the depth of disbelief and objection to the Bible the pro-gay thinkers have, they have to disbelieve a lot before they can propose what they think based on no evidence.

Phinehas2 · Feb 22, 2008

since when does mainstream Christianity consider the Bible "God's word"?

No, since when did Christianity itself ever not believe that?

David Brider · Feb 22, 2008

Phinehas2 said:
Yet I think it’s a strong verse and it was only one of several.

But it's a verse that doesn't say the one thing you want us to believe it says - it doesn't say the Bible is The Word of God. So for defending that position, yes, it's a weak verse.

But actually if the Bible records Jesus saying His words are from the Father God and quotes the OT scriptures as what God told them the Bible contains the word of God.

Only if you assume that the words of God are the same as The Word of God.

Therefore it is impossible to say the Bible isnt the word of God.

It's perfectly possible. Indeed, in the absence of any clear Biblical data to support the notion that the Bible is the Word of God, I'd suggest that it's the only sensible course of action.

One can say it contains the word of God and ones can say it is the word of God as in containing the word of God and being inspired by the Holy Spirit.

I think it's certainly valid to say that it contains the Word of God, inasmuch as it contains records of God speaking directly with His people over the ages, and yes, I believe that the Word of God is part of what God says (but by no means all of it).

I'm just not convinced by the notion that something containing written records of God's speech means that the written record equates to the Word of God. After all, the scriptures, Old and New Testament, contain records of many other things than merely God's direct communication with His people - it contains people's communications with God, people's communications with each other, historical records, poetry, symbolism, parables, epistolary.

And yes, Paul says that Scripture is God-breathed, and that's generally taken to mean inspired by God. But does being inspired by God mean the same thing as being the Word of God? Preachers pray for inspiration before they write a sermon, but if those prayers are answered, that doesn't make their sermons "the Word of God", does it? What reason do we have to suppose that the Bible is any different in that respect?

well he would do as his testimony is from the risen Lord not man, don’t you believe the Bible?

As I hope I've made clear by now, yes I do.

But again I was referring to the Bible containing the word of God. My point was based on the Bible contains the direct words of God. There is no point me debating with you of you can be bothered addressing my points.

I have been addressing your points.

Phinehas2 said:
Phinehas2 said:

Jesus said His words will never pass away...

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Phinehas2 said:
davidbrider said:

But not His Word.

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Jesus said His words will never pass away... the Bible says Jesus is the Word.

The words Jesus spoke are not the same thing as Jesus Himself.

Phinehas2 said:
Phinehas2 said:

...they are living and active...

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Phinehas2 said:
David Brider said:

Jesus never said that about His words...

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Yes He did..

Um, no. As I said, "that was the writer of the letter to the Hebrews referring to the Word of God." Specifically,

Hebrews 4:12 said:
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Phinehas2 said:
Phinehas2 said:

...they are Spirit and truth and give life...

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Phinehas2 said:
David Brider said:

When was He ever recorded as saying those things, about either His words or the Word of God?

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John 6:63 “The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.”

Sorry but if your knowledge of the Bible is so lacking you shouldn’t be making claims.

I wasn't making a claim, I was asking a question. Thanks for answering it.

Phinehas2 said:
Phinehas2 said:

Jesus says of OT scriptures ‘have you not read what God said’ and then quoted the OT scriptures, how can the words not be God’s word?

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Phinehas2 said:
David Brider said:

He doesn't quote the Scriptures as such - He quotes God's words recorded in the Scriptures. But that's still not the same thing as equating either God's word or the Scriptures themselves with "the Word of God".

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It says graphe and then quotes OT Scriptures, yes He most definitely quotes the OT scriptures...[/quote]

Jesus quotes God - the precise words being "I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." Whilst those words are recorded in the Scriptures (in Exodus chapter 3), Jesus is quoting God (indeed, He's probably remembering saying those very words Himself). To say that He's "quoting Scripture" would be a bit like saying that if I quoted something that (say) Tony Blair had said, I was in fact quoting a newspaper which reported him saying it.

...

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and He also have you not read what God told them/said to them. Of course its God’s words, Jesus is the Son of God, you are denying God.

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As I've said, I fully acknowledge that Jesus was quoting God's words - I just don't see any grounds for arguing that "God's words" is the same as "God's Word".

Phinehas2 said:

Phinehas2 said:

Well yes you believe the Bible not to be true. That’s unbelief of the Bible.

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Phinehas2 said:

David Brider said:

I believe the Bible.

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Well evidently not.

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Nope, I do definitely believe the Bible.

Phinehas2 said:

David Brider said:

I believe the Word of God.

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Phinehas2 said:

Evidently not.

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Nope, again, I do definitely believe the Word of God.

David.

EnemyPartyII · Feb 22, 2008

Floatingaxe said:
The Catholic Church needs to wise up. They are merely religious, not spiritual. Afterall, the Pope thimks Allah is Jehovah! Pretty confused old soul.

Allah is the God of abraham, so who else is it gunna be?

Having carefully studied the Koran, you are aware that it is built on the Old Testament, and reveres Jesus, and thus, the God of the Old Testament and Jesus, aren't you?

EnemyPartyII · Feb 22, 2008

Floatingaxe said:
Muslims who become saved in Jesus Christ abandon the word, "Allah", because they know that who they used to worship is a demonic entity.

You have no evidence of this, as usual, because you are, as usual, making stuff up as you go, with little regard to how offensive it is.

(Reps to OllieFranz for his excelent research)

EnemyPartyII · Feb 22, 2008

tulc said:
Does that mean people in France aren't Christian because they don't believe Jehovah is God they believe He is Dieu?
tulc(seems a little harsh that everyone has to use English in order to be a Christian)

Don't you know the KJV is the True Bible for True Christians?

He spoke English in that!

EnemyPartyII · Feb 22, 2008

Jet_A_Jockey said:
is it really? It doesn't take much imagination to understand figurative and literal passages in scripture. In fact it takes much less imagination to understand a correlation between the two than what is required to justify same-sex sex through scripture.

Huh?

I don't understand what you're saying here.

EnemyPartyII · Feb 22, 2008

Jet_A_Jockey said:
the bible is the inspired word of God. Pick it apart and play word games if you want but you know what I mean.

Its not the inspired word of God, it is the words of men who were inspired by God. Not word game, rather a HUGE difference

Should we be turning over rocks looking for God-infos?

Yes. This is called "science"

Phinehas2 · Feb 22, 2008

This is outside reality. If the Bible contains the words of Jesus Christ, one can say the Bible is the word of God, one cant say it isn't without it being denial and disbelief.

Phinehas2 · Feb 22, 2008

Allah is the God of abraham, so who else is it gunna be?

Not really , Yahweh is the God of Abraham, Allah is only the God of Abraham when He is Father and Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, the Islamic god allah cant be.

David Brider · Feb 22, 2008

Phinehas2 said:
This is outside reality. If the Bible contains the words of Jesus Christ, one can say the Bible is the word of God, one cant say it isn't without it being denial and disbelief.

One can, because there's a difference between someone's words and someone's word.

If I talk to you, that's using words.

If I give you my word, that's something else. It might (almost certainly will) involve the use of words, but when I give my word about something, it's much more than mere words. It may be a promise, a pledge, a commitment, a covenant. But it's not just words.

I believe the Bible is true. I don't believe it itself is the Word of God, although it certainly contains enough information within its pages for us to be pretty certain of what the Word of God is - His promise, His pledge, His commitment, His covenant with us. But the Word of God is so much more than a mere book, even if that book is the Bible.

And no, that's not denial, it's not disbelief. It's just trusting God and going forward with Him. Every day.

And you know what? I'm really tired of you accusing those who disagree with you of disbelief. I for one never make that sort of accusation against you, and I'd appreciate it if you'd refrain from making that sort of accusation against me.

Thanks.

David.

Phinehas2 · Feb 22, 2008

Dear David Brider

The bottom line is that if the Bible contains the words of God one cant say it isnt the Word of God. Sure it may contain poetry, history, prophecy, but all inspired by God, but one cant say it isn’t the word.

The words Jesus spoke are not the same thing as Jesus Himself.

Sorry that doesn’t make sense, neither am I my words, but you made the claim that Jesus idnt say what I have shown you He said.

Um, no. As I said, "that was the writer of the letter to the Hebrews referring to the Word of God." Specifically,

Ok well I wasn’t, I was referring to what I have shown you,

I wasn't making a claim, I was asking a question. Thanks for answering it.

Its a pleasure, thanks for asking now you know.

Jesus quotes God - the precise words being "I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob."

But again that isnt the passage I was referring to. Jesus is of course God, he quotes the Father. But to the Pharisees what He quotes is scripture.

To say that He's "quoting Scripture" would be a bit like saying that if I quoted something that (say) Tony Blair had said, I was in fact quoting a newspaper which reported him saying it.

Actually that’s a good analogy of what you are saying

As I've said, I fully acknowledge that Jesus was quoting God's words - I just don't see any grounds for arguing that "God's words" is the same as "God's Word".

What is the difference then?

One can, because there's a difference between someone's words and someone's word.

what difference apart form one being singular and the other plural?

If I talk to you, that's using words.

If I give you my word, that's something else.

But I am not referring to that, and indeed If you were to give me you word what would you give me your word on without describing it in words… no I don’t think so.

I believe the Bible is true. I don't believe it itself is the Word of God,

Ok but that’s not what I claimed anyway and besides the issue came about because a claim was made that someone didn’t believe the Bible is the word of God, so ok I agree with you but lets get back to the issue or better still the topic.

And you know what? I'm really tired of you accusing those who disagree with you of disbelief.

Well that is hard luck because I am comparing what you say with the Bible whether you agree with me or not is not my problem. If I was getting fed up with you and others trying to claim something that is evidently not the case by demonstration would you stop?

EnemyPartyII · Feb 22, 2008

Phinehas2 said:
This is outside reality. If the Bible contains the words of Jesus Christ, one can say the Bible is the word of God, one cant say it isn't without it being denial and disbelief.

I already told you... SOME parts of the Bible are the words of God, those parts by Christ (assuming we allow that those recording his words never added their own spin)

The rest of it is the word of men.

EnemyPartyII · Feb 22, 2008

Phinehas2 said:
Not really , Yahweh is the God of Abraham, Allah is only the God of Abraham when He is Father and Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, the Islamic god allah cant be.

wha...?

What are you gibbering about?

Allah is two different Gods at the same time?

David Brider · Feb 23, 2008

Phinehas2 said:
Ok well I wasn’t, I was referring to what I have shown you.

So where exactly did Jesus ever say that his words were living and active? You've made the claim, but the only comparable phrase I can find anywhere in the Bible is in the letter to the Hebrews, where the writer describes the Word of God as living and active. If there's something else I'm missing, could you point it out to me?

What difference apart form one being singular and the other plural?

I explained the difference quite clearly in the post to which you were replying. Go back and read it again.

David.

David Brider · Feb 23, 2008

The bottom line is that if the Bible contains the words of God one cant say it isnt the Word of God. Sure it may contain poetry, history, prophecy, but all inspired by God, but one cant say it isn’t the word.

As I've pointed out before - the phrase "the Word of God" (and "the Word of the Lord", which as far as I can tell means the same thing) is a very specific scriptural phrase. It is never, that I can tell, used in scripture to refer to something written. So to use it to refer to the Bible is almost certainly to use it in a context which the writers of the Bible didn't intend.

David.

David Brider · Feb 23, 2008

Phinehas2 said:
But again that isnt the passage I was referring to.

What passage were you referring to, then? You said:

Phinehas2 said:
Jesus says of OT scriptures ‘have you not read what God said’ and then quoted the OT scriptures, how can the words not be God’s word?

The only passage I can find where Jesus is recorded as saying those words is in Matthew 22, where he goes on to quote what God is recorded as saying in Exodus 3 - "I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob". If you had in mind a different passage, could you point it out to me?

David.

Phinehas2 · Feb 25, 2008

Dear David Brider,

What passage were you referring to, then? You said:

the one I cited.

The only passage I can find where Jesus is recorded as saying those words is in Matthew 22, where he goes on to quote what God is recorded as saying in Exodus 3 - "I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob". If you had in mind a different passage, could you point it out to me?

I now don’t need to as you have just affirmed the point I was making, the question remains to you how can the words not be God’s word? Jesus (according to the Biblical account) who is the Word (according to the Biblical account), tells the Pharisees what God said according to the Biblical account (according to the Biblical account)

David Brider · Feb 25, 2008

Phinehas2 said:
David Brider said:

What passage were you referring to, then?

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Phinehas2 said:
the one I cited.

Which is? Chapter and verse, please, as I'm getting somewhat tired of this.

I now dont need to as you have just affirmed the point I was making, the question remains to you how can the words not be Gods word?

No, the question remains, given that the writers of the Bible never used the phrase "the Word of God" to refer to something written, why do you use it in that context, and expect others to do the same?

David.

Phinehas2 · Feb 25, 2008

Dear David Brider,
Sorry but I have already given chapter reference after chapter reference, I am still waiting for one from you that countenances same-sex sex. And its now irrelevant as the example you gave makes my point equally well.

But here is a question for you, if Jesus who is God speaks the words of God how can it not be the ‘word of God’? If you say the words of God are not the word of God, whose words are they?

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