A re-examination of nothing (2)

Phinehas2 · Feb 21, 2008

This thread was split automatically after 1000 replies and this thread has been automatically created.
The old thread automatically closed is here: "A re-examination of nothing"

Floatingaxe · Feb 21, 2008

I'm the first!

Jet_A_Jockey · Feb 21, 2008

blah :x

Phinehas2 · Feb 21, 2008

Dear Tulc and EnemyParty,

The following statement was made..

EnemyPartyII said:
The Bible is not God's word to us. The Bible is the word of men INSPIRED by God... huge difference.

To you maybe the Bible is not the word of God, but to those who believe the Biblical testimony it is (2 Tim 3:16)
But how can one say the Bible is not God’s word when it contains God’s word? Jesus words are God’s word and written down by men. Jesus said His words will never pass away, they are living and active, they are Spirit and truth and give life, His words are still His words who ever has written them down.

PARTS of the Bible, noteably those attributed to Christ, are the words of God.

The rest is the word of men.

Jesus says of OT scriptures ‘have you not read what God said’ and then quoted the OT scriptures, how can the words not be God’s word? What do you mean by ‘attributed’ do you doubt they may not be?
Such statement as ‘the Bible is not God’s word to us’ are statements of disbelief. To us who believe the Bible is the word of God to us.

EnemyPartyII · Feb 21, 2008

Phinehas2 said:
Dear Tulc and EnemyParty,

The following statement was made..
[/COLOR]

To you maybe the Bible is not the word of God, but to those who believe the Biblical testimony it is (2 Tim 3:16)
But how can one say the Bible is not God’s word when it contains God’s word? Jesus words are God’s word and written down by men. Jesus said His words will never pass away, they are living and active, they are Spirit and truth and give life, His words are still His words who ever has written them down.
[/COLOR]
Jesus says of OT scriptures ‘have you not read what God said’ and then quoted the OT scriptures, how can the words not be God’s word? What do you mean by ‘attributed’ do you doubt they may not be?
Such statement as ‘the Bible is not God’s word to us’ are statements of disbelief. To us who believe the Bible is the word of God to us.

Well if you want to believe the Bible is God's word to us, good luck to you.

Sadly there is absolutely no evidence to support this theory.

Jet_A_Jockey · Feb 21, 2008

EnemyPartyII said:
Well if you want to believe the Bible is God's word to us, good luck to you.

Sadly there is absolutely no evidence to support this theory.

you versus mainstream christianity now? Good luck to YOU I say.

Jet_A_Jockey · Feb 21, 2008

me said:
Since you are giving concrete definitions then what do you say about the other definitions for the word 'koitai'? it's not like the dictionary only lists one possible definition. Here are some examples of compound words using koitai and that do not mean beds.
In these examples it is referenced as a term indicating sexual action. There are other examples of a non-sexual nature as well.
POLUKOITOS sleeping with many men or women, ADELFOKOITIA incest of brother or sister,KLEYIKOITHS seeking illicit sex, MHTROKOITHS incestuous person, i.e. with mother.

The 'promiscuous man' argument falls short against 'pornoi' which is mentioned earlier in the verse, and there is no reason to believe paul is being redundant here.

still no one addressing this post.

EnemyPartyII · Feb 21, 2008

Jet_A_Jockey said:
you versus mainstream christianity now? Good luck to YOU I say.

since when does mainstream Christianity consider the Bible "God's word"? The Catholics and Anglicans sure don't... thats pretty mainstream...

Phinehas2 · Feb 21, 2008

Dear EnemyPartyII

Well if you want to believe the Bible is God's word to us, good luck to you.

Sadly there is absolutely no evidence to support this theory.

I don’t have to ‘want’ to believe this I do believe this, my previous post which you haven’t addressed proves it. If the Bible records Jesus quoting the OT scriptures which are also in the Bible, then the Bible contains the word of God, so one can’t say the Bible isnt the word of God without it being a statement of rejection of the Bible and the word of God. Your claim that it isnt to you is just your unbelief.

Phinehas2 · Feb 21, 2008

Dear EnemtPartyII

since when does mainstream Christianity consider the Bible "God's word"? The Catholics and Anglicans sure don't... thats pretty mainstream...

I would say they absolutely do not just Roman Catholics and Anglicans but all Christians. How can one not believe the Bible is God's word when the Bible testifies to it and the all the major Christian churchs respect the Bible as reliable in matters of faith? If the Bible is a reliable standard in matters of faith in Jesus Christ the how can one dispute it?

EnemyPartyII · Feb 21, 2008

Phinehas2 said:
Dear EnemyPartyII

I don’t have to ‘want’ to believe this I do believe this, my previous post which you haven’t addressed proves it. If the Bible records Jesus quoting the OT scriptures which are also in the Bible, then the Bible contains the word of God, so one can’t say the Bible isnt the word of God without it being a statement of rejection of the Bible and the word of God. Your claim that it isnt to you is just your unbelief.

Does Jesus actually say "These old testament scriptures are the words of my Father, dictated to, and precisely recorded by man" or words to that effect anywhere?

EnemyPartyII · Feb 21, 2008

Phinehas2 said:
Dear EnemtPartyII
I would say they absolutely do not just Roman Catholics and Anglicans but all Christians. How can one not believe the Bible is God's word when the Bible testifies to it and the all the major Christian churchs respect the Bible as reliable in matters of faith? If the Bible is a reliable standard in matters of faith in Jesus Christ the how can one dispute it?

You'd be wrong. The Bible never claims to be inerrant word of God, and mainstream churches have many interesting and deep interpretations of the Bible that are quite varied to what it actually SAYS, because they understand that what it SAYS and what it MEANS are not always the same thing.

For example, the Catholic Church acknowledges evolution and Big Bang cosmology as scientific fact. This is at variance to what the Bible SAYS, but not what it MEANS.

Phinehas2 · Feb 21, 2008

Dear EnemyPartyII

Does Jesus actually say "These old testament scriptures arent the words of my Father, dictated to, and precisely recorded by man" or words to that effect anywhere?
I am not interested in what you think God didnt say.
The fact is if the Bible records Jesus quoting the OT scriptures which are also in the Bible, then the Bible contains the word of God if the Bible is true. Do you agree with this?

You'd be wrong.

No I would be right as I have shown.

The Bible never claims to be inerrant word of God,

Thats a different argument and not what I was saying

EnemyPartyII · Feb 21, 2008

Phinehas2 said:
Dear EnemyPartyII

Does Jesus actually say "These old testament scriptures arent the words of my Father, dictated to, and precisely recorded by man" or words to that effect anywhere?
I am not interested in what you think God didnt say.
The fact is if the Bible records Jesus quoting the OT scriptures which are also in the Bible, then the Bible contains the word of God if the Bible is true. Do you agree with this?

No I would be right as I have shown.
Thats a different argument and not what I was saying

Jesus quoting the Old Testament is NOT the same as Jesus saying the old testament is literally, historically, scientifically, or theologically correct.

Jesus worked within the structure of the time, in a religious society. OF COURSE he would cite the scriptures of that society... that doesn't mean he recognises them as God given.

Also pretty unaware of Jesus citing any old testament scriptures that condemn homosexuality, or abortion, or any of the other stuff you are constantly saying is "God's Word"

Phinehas2 · Feb 21, 2008

Dear EnemyPartyII

Jesus quoting the Old Testament is NOT the same as Jesus saying the old testament is literally, historically, scientifically, or theologically correct.

Which was neither what I said or my point. Your whole argument seems based on what nether Jesus nor I said but what Jesus didn’t say. The fact is if the Bible records Jesus quoting the OT scriptures which are also in the Bible, then the Bible contains the word of God if the Bible is true. Even on this specific topic Jesus says to the Pharisees have you not read what God said, and then quotes the OT scriptures we can see is Genesis 2 which is that in the beginning God made them male and female for this reason that a man a shall be united with his wife. If it wasn’t literally, historically, scientifically, or theologically correct why was God lying to them.

Jesus worked within the structure of the time, in a religious society.

who said,? You how do you know if the Bible isnt literally, historically, scientifically, or theologically correct?

OF COURSE he would cite the scriptures of that society... that doesn't mean he recognises them as God given.

So if He didn’t recognise them as God given why did He lie to the Pharisees and tell them what God said to them?
Sorry but barely anything you write bears any logic to me.

Also pretty unaware of Jesus citing any old testament scriptures that condemn homosexuality, or abortion, or any of the other stuff you are constantly saying is "God's Word"

That’s because you don’t believe God’s word.

Phinehas2 · Feb 21, 2008

As I have said before, non of these debates result in an aggrement to disagree. my gay and lesbian friends dont claim to be Christians or believers really but they dont claim the Bible doesn't say what it says when the topic comes up, nor do they all think same-sex unions are the same as marriage. Here we cant agree to disagree over the issue because the battle is over the Bible and the word of God.

tulc · Feb 21, 2008

First page!
tulc(thinks Jesus is the Word of God)

David Brider · Feb 21, 2008

Phinehas2 said:
To you maybe the Bible is not the word of God, but to those who believe the Biblical testimony it is (2 Tim 3:16)

Trouble is, as I've pointed out before, that's actually a pretty weak verse for demonstrating that the Bible is, or might be, the Word of God.

"The Word of God" is a very specific Biblical phrase. It (and "God's Word") appear 45 times across the Old and New Testaments ("The Word of the Lord" and "The Lord's Word" appear a further 233 times). On none of those occasions are they used to refer clearly and unambiguously to anything written, least of all the Scriptures. Paul himself used the phrase "the Word of God" nine times in his letters...and yet in 2 Timothy 3:16, he doesn't use it. Here he has a perfect opportunity to make his doctrine and understanding of scripture perfectly clear, to say once and for all, "all Scripture is the Word of God," if that were what he believed...and yet, he doesn't. Instead, he says it's "God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." Not "the Word of God". Nor indeed many of the other words so often applied to the Bible - inerrant, infallible, perfect. No, he says it's God-breathed (theopneustoV), which may be many things but isn't necessarily the same as "the Word of God".

But how can one say the Bible is not God’s word when it contains God’s word?

The Bible contains the words of many people - including God. But that doesn't make it The Word of any of those people.

Jesus words are God’s word and written down by men.

No - they're certainly God's words (for those of us with trinitarian theology), but there's nowhere in scripture where they're described as "the Word of God" per se. The closest the scriptural record comes to that is Luke 5:1, but that's an occasion where Jesus is preaching to a crowd, and that seems to be quite a common use of the phrase, particularly in the NT, to refer to people preaching God's message - it certainly isn't unique to Jesus.

Jesus said His words will never pass away...

But not His Word.

...they are living and active...

Jesus never said that about His words - that was the writer of the letter to the Hebrews referring to the Word of God.

...they are Spirit and truth and give life...

When was He ever recorded as saying those things, about either His words or the Word of God?

His words are still His words who ever has written them down.

Sure - but not "The Word of God".

Jesus says of OT scriptures ‘have you not read what God said’ and then quoted the OT scriptures, how can the words not be God’s word?

He doesn't quote the Scriptures as such - He quotes God's words recorded in the Scriptures. But that's still not the same thing as equating either God's word or the Scriptures themselves with "the Word of God".

Such statement as ‘the Bible is not God’s word to us’ are statements of disbelief.

It's a statement of different belief to your own. I believe the Bible. I believe the Word of God. I just don't believe the two things are one and the same, because despite it being a widely held belief that they are, I find the Scriptural evidence for that belief to be lacking.

David.

Floatingaxe · Feb 21, 2008

EnemyPartyII said:
since when does mainstream Christianity consider the Bible "God's word"? The Catholics and Anglicans sure don't... thats pretty mainstream...

Never mind groups! Born again Christians--people who know Jesus Christ--they know the bible is God's Word. That is mainstream.

That is the Church.

tulc · Feb 21, 2008

Floatingaxe said:
Never mind groups! Born again Christians--people who know Jesus Christ--they know the bible is God's Word. That is mainstream.
That is the Church.

Uhmmm no, actually that isn't the Church. The Church are those who follow Jesus. Believing "the Bible is Gods Word" is a doctrine some people in the Church believe, however the Church is much bigger then that.
tulc(just finishing one cup of coffee, getting ready to have another)

A re-examination of nothing (2)

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