A Rapture Causes the Great Tribulation

oikonomia

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One common occurence imo for Christians is to fail to see how God's move on earth in His people
causes prophetic events to happen.

It is not prophecy alone but some of His people wisely cooperating with His will
and effectively praying for God to do what He promised.

An example in the OT is Jeremiah's prophecy that the captured Israelites after 70 years of Babylonian captivity
would return to the promised land. The question I would ask:

What caused the return to the promised land in the books of Ezra, Nehemiah, Haggai, and Zechariah?
Was the cause of the return Jeremiah's prophecy in Jeremiah 25:8-12 or was it the regular prayers of Daniel for God to do so? (Dan. 9:2, 6:10)

I say it was BOTH. God's promise through the prophet Jeremiah was part of the cause.
And Daniel's understanding of the prophecy and his dedicated desperate prayers for the fulfillment was part of the cause.

This thread will show who the great tribulation is not just a calender event. The cause of such an event
is the faithfulness, readiness, and cooperation in living and petitioning of the church, or at least a remnant of the church.
A Rapture will be the cause or the fulfillment of prophecy of the great tribulation.
 
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oikonomia

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What I just showed was the great prophesy of the return of the Israelites from the Babylonian captivity
had two causes of fulfillment;

1.) God's promise to do so (Jeremiah 25:8-12)
2.) The godly Dniel's living and faithful prayers to God TO keep His word (Dan. 9:2; 6:10).

It is perculiar that Christians would miss that the same principle would apply to end time events.
 
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oikonomia

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In the first year of his reign I, Daniel, understood by means of the Scriptures the number of the years, which came as the word of Jehovah to Jeremiah the prophet, for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem, that is, seventy years.

So I set my face toward the Lord God to seek Him in prayer and supplications with fasting and sackcloth and ashes. (Dan. 9:2,3)


Notice this godly man did not simply check the calender. At the risk of his life he prayed for God to fulfill
His word. What follows is the gody Daniel confessing and repenting on behalf of the punished Israelites.


The catalyst for God to act on God's promise certainly was the life and petitioning of this godly man in captivity - Daniel.

He was so serious about not ceasing to petition God three times a day that he did not care for the threat of
being thrown to the lions.

Should it be that different concerning the great promises to the church of end time matters?
I say the principle is the same. Simpy arguing over sequences and calender times without gody living and petitioning is
a trick of the enemy. A corporate Daniel on earth echoing God's promises must be a "dispensational instrument" turning
the age.

We Christians should awake to realize this. Some of us should seek to be such a "dispensation instrument" coordinating
with prophecy. A remnant at least of a collective Daniel should live and petition God concering His promise.

The early rapture of such remnant will be the cause (with God's prophecy) for the great tribulation to commence.
 
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oikonomia

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When Satan is driven down from roaming to heaven to accuse God's people on earth, he knows
that he has little time left. This causes him to desperately do all he can to put off his final destruction.
So he summons Antichrist up and that is the most significant cause for this end of the age great tribulation.

Those just raptured to the throne of God in the third heavens have overcome and rejoice.
Those left upon the earth rather have WOE instead of victorious rejoicing.

Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time. (Rev. 12:12)


But why was the Devil driven down? It was because of the rapture of a remnant of overcoming saints. And the serving angels
on their behalf then drove the Devil down to his new limited environment of only being on the earth.

The universal woman of light representing all God's people brings forth a remnant called a man-child.

And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place there prepared by God so that they might nourish her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days.

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels went to war with the dragon. And the dragon warred and his angels.
And they did not prevail, neither was their place found any longer in heaven.

And the great dragon was cast down, the ancient serpent, he who is called the Devil and Satan, he who deceives the whole inhabited earth; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him. (Rev. 12:5-9)

When the man-child (the stronger part-overcomers) from the woman is raptured, Satan has no more ground or room to appear
before God accusing His people. The angels who are the ministering servants of the human saints led by Michael
drive Satan down. The man-child has been a "dispensational instrument" to change the age.

And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night.

And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death. (vs. 10,11)
 
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keras

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But why was the Devil driven down? It was because of the rapture of a remnant of overcoming saints. And the serving angels
on their behalf then drove the Devil down to his new limited environment of only being on the earth.
An opinionated dream.
Satan will be evicted from heaven because his time is up. And he knows it! Revelation 12:12, Luke 10:18

The idea that people will be taken to heaven at that time, is wrong; proved by how he pursues the 'woman', who represents the faithful Christian peoples, who will be taken to a place of safety on earth for the 1260 days during the great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls.
Those Christians who failed in trusting the Lord for their safety, Daniel 11:32, will remain and face persecution. Revelation 12:17
 
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oikonomia

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So who are the overcomers who mentioned in Revelation 12:10,11 ?

And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night.

And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death.


They are the man-child who was raptured to the throne in verse 5.

And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. (v.5)

1. ) The overcomers could not be the angels. The good angels like Michael never sinned and don't
overcome through the redeeming blood of Christ.
they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb

2.) The angels also do not die - they loved not their soul-life even unto death.

3.) Neither could the overcomers be the women fleeing to the wilderness for 1,260 days in verse 6.
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place there prepared by God so that they might nourish her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days.
This woman is left on earth to be under Satan's persecution.
And when the dragon saw that he was cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who brought forth the man-child. (v.13)
And permission was given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them; (13:7)

So the plural pronouns "they" and "them" and "their" refer to a collective called "man-child" who was caught up by rapture to
the throne of God just before the 1,260 days.

And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. (Rev. 12:5)
 
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oikonomia

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In the OP I mentioned two causes of God to fulfill His promises:

1.) Godly living
2.) Godly intercession.

In Revelation 12 with God's people we see both as the cause of the commencement of the great tribulation.

Let's look at the two causes in reverse order- #2 godly intercession first.
Godly prayers are signified in the crying out of the women who gives birth to the collective man-child.

And she was with child, and she cried out, travailing in birth and being in pain to bring forth. (Rev. 12:2)


Her crying out to bring forth the child represents the travail of generations of God's people for delivery of victory over adversity.
Ie.
Isaiah 26:17-18; Jer. 6:24; 13:21; 30:6; Micah 4:9-10; 5:3; Gal. 4:19.

A most recent example is Gal. 4:19. In order for Christians to overcome in the fight for God's kingdom
the apostle travailed as a mother in birth that Christ would be formed in the saints in the Galatian churches.

My children, with whom I travail again in birth until Christ is formed in you, (Gal. 4:19)

Now look at
#1 - godly living second.

And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night.
And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death. (Rev. 12:10,11)


A remnant of stronger ones from the body of God's saints must have Christ formed in them for godly living.
They have overcome through Christ's redeeming blood and standing and proclaiming the facts of their victory.
And these they did even at the cost of denying their soul-life even unto death.


The Woman of light represents all of God's people. The majority of her is weaker.
Within the Woman though is a stronger component of those who overcome.
For the petitioning of the saints of the entire woman and the overcoming godly living of the remnant man-child, their
rapture to heaven is the catalyst for Satan to be driven down.

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels went to war with the dragon. And the dragon warred and his angels.
And they did not prevail, neither was their place found any longer in heaven.
And the great dragon was cast down, the ancient serpent, he who is called the Devil and Satan, he who deceives the whole inhabited earth; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him. (Rev. 12:7-9)

Remember that Michael and his good angels are ministering spirits to the saints responding to their petitions.

Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth for service for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation? (Hebrews 1:14)
 
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So who are the overcomers who mentioned in Revelation 12:10,11 ?
They are the faithful Christian peoples. We see them in each of the seven Church's of Revelation.
They are the man-child who was raptured to the throne in verse 5.
The 'man chid', singular: Who is Jesus.
And there it is folks: the only time any person is ever 'raptured to heaven'. He had to die first and He also had to come from heaven first. John 3:13
 
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eleos1954

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One common occurence imo for Christians is to fail to see how God's move on earth in His people
causes prophetic events to happen.

It is not prophecy alone but some of His people wisely cooperating with His will
and effectively praying for God to do what He promised.

An example in the OT is Jeremiah's prophecy that the captured Israelites after 70 years of Babylonian captivity
would return to the promised land. The question I would ask:

What caused the return to the promised land in the books of Ezra, Nehemiah, Haggai, and Zechariah?
Was the cause of the return Jeremiah's prophecy in Jeremiah 25:8-12 or was it the regular prayers of Daniel for God to do so? (Dan. 9:2, 6:10)

I say it was BOTH. God's promise through the prophet Jeremiah was part of the cause.
And Daniel's understanding of the prophecy and his dedicated desperate prayers for the fulfillment was part of the cause.

This thread will show who the great tribulation is not just a calender event. The cause of such an event
is the faithfulness, readiness, and cooperation in living and petitioning of the church, or at least a remnant of the church.
A Rapture will be the cause or the fulfillment of prophecy of the great tribulation.
The bible teaches all will go through the great tribulation ... but that it will be cut short ... then Jesus will return and the 1st resurrection happens. It is not a calendar event .... it is the condition of mankind being almost totally evil .... like in the days of Noah ....

Mark 13:20

19For those will be days of tribulation unmatched from the beginning of God’s creation until now, and never to be seen again. 20 If the Lord had not cut short those days, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom He has chosen, He has cut them short.

Genisis 6:5

King James Bible
And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Mankind will return to this same condition .... and then the Lord will return.
 
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oikonomia

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The bible teaches all will go through the great tribulation ... but that it will be cut short
If the corporate man-child is caught up to the throne CAUSING the servant angels to drive Satan down for the 1,260 days, then
the coporate man-child is not on earth for the great tribulation. They CAUSED it to begin.

Those saints raptured to heaven have reason to be GLAD.
Those saints left upon the earth face WOE.

Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time. (Rev.12:12)

I agree that God cuts the time short. However the GLADNESS is that of the overcomers of the previous verses 10 and 11.

And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night.
And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death. (vs. 10,11)


... then Jesus will return and the 1st resurrection happens. It is not a calendar event .... it is the condition of mankind being almost totally evil .... like in the days of Noah ....
You are missing the point. The main driving force causing Jesus to return is the READINESS of a "critical mass" of His saints.
In Revelation 19 the bride has made herself ready. And this preceeds Jesus coming down from heaven with such a ready bride
as His army.

The remnant Bride Raptured to Heaven has made herself ready -
And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty thunders, saying, Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and exult, and let us give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready. (Rev. 19:6,7)

The remnant Bride is the accompanying army coming down with Christ -
And He is clothed with a garment dipped in blood; and His name is called the Word of God.
And the armies which are in heaven followed Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean. (Rev. 19:13,14)


I would have you pay special attention to this. What qualifies these saints to be in the wedding feast is also what qualifies
her to accompany the descending Christ as His army.

Qualaification for the marriage feast -
Let us rejoice and exult, and let us give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.

And it was given to her that she should be clothed in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteousnesses of the saints.
(Rev. 19:7,8)

Qualification for the heavenly army accompanying Christ -
And the armies which are in heaven followed Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean. (v. 14)


You see her wedding garment is also her fighting armor.
she should be clothed in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteousnesses of the saints. (v.8)
armies which are in heaven followed Him . . . dressed in fine linen, white and clean. (v.14)


In both cases this is not the entire universal Church but a remnant like Gideon's small overoing army of a minority - 300.
But you and I have every chance to be in that minority / remnant bride and bridal army.
Mark 13:20

19For those will be days of tribulation unmatched from the beginning of God’s creation until now, and never to be seen again. 20 If the Lord had not cut short those days, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom He has chosen, He has cut them short.

Genisis 6:5

King James Bible
And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Mankind will return to this same condition .... and then the Lord will return.
I appreciate these verses. But you don't see how both Enoch and Noah who both walked with God, gavee God
the ground to do something. They were an anti-testimony that it was possible to live godly in that age.
That gave God the basis to both protect them from judgment and judge the rest.

And did not spare the ancient world but guarded Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; (2 Pet. 2:5)

Noah being "a herald of righteousness" furnished the righteouss God with a basis to flood the world.

By faith Noah, having been divinely instructed concerning things not yet seen and being moved by pious fear, prepared an ark for the salvation of his house, through which he condemned the world, (Heb. 11:7)

It is the same in the last days. Some living rightreously furnish God with the basis to condemn the unrighteous world.
The rapture of the "they" - "them" - "brothers" as a collective man-child from the total body of God's people,
cause the final time of calamity and judgment to commence.

Immediately after Satan finds himself expelled perminently from roaming even to heaven to accuse, he summons
up the Antichrist from the sea and the abyss.

And the dragon became angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus.

And he stood on the sand of the sea.

And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns ten diadems, and on his heads names of blasphemy. (Rev. 12:17-13:1)
 
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Douggg

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oikonomia

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I agree with you that at least Antichrist's setting up the idol is a pivotal event, like the final straw of rebellion.

What I am trying tp get across FROM SCRIPTURE . . . that there are causes for there to BE be a misbehving Antichrist
that have to do with the righteous living of God's saints. I wish you would read carefully some of my previous posts.

Rather than repeat I woul ask you to back to my comments on Revelation 12 including Rev. 13:1.

What caused the Devil and his angels to be driven from their heavenly activity of accusing the saints?
It is the rapture of the corporate man-child who triggers to serving angels to fight down their enemy.

And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. (Rev, 12:5)

Because of this rapture -

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels went to war with the dragon. And the dragon warred and his angels.

And they did not prevail, neither was their place found any longer in heaven.
And the great dragon was cast down, the ancient serpent,(cs 7-9a)


In the spiritual warfare the angels are the ministering spirits sent forth to assist the inheritors of salvation.
And that salvation has COME to the remnant man-child collective.

And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night.

And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death. (vs. 9,10)


Everything the Devil does on the earth including summoning up Antichrist and his false prophet is the result
of his expulsion. He pulls out all the stops then because he knows God's saints are close to sending him to the lake of fire.

Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time.

And when the dragon saw that he was cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who brought forth the man-child.


Gladness, kingdom, and salvation is the overomers in heaven.
Woe, persecution, idolatry, great tribulation to those awaiting Christ's victory at Armegeddon.
 
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Douggg

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I agree with you that at least Antichrist's setting up the idol is a pivotal event, like the final straw of rebellion.

What I am trying tp get across FROM SCRIPTURE . . . that there are causes for there to BE be a misbehving Antichrist
that have to do with the righteous living of God's saints. I wish you would read carefully some of my previous posts.

Rather than repeat I woul ask you to back to my comments on Revelation 12 including Rev. 13:1.

What caused the Devil and his angels to be driven from their heavenly activity of accusing the saints?
It is the rapture of the corporate man-child who triggers to serving angels to fight down their enemy.

And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. (Rev, 12:5)

Because of this rapture -

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels went to war with the dragon. And the dragon warred and his angels.

And they did not prevail, neither was their place found any longer in heaven.
And the great dragon was cast down, the ancient serpent,(cs 7-9a)


In the spiritual warfare the angels are the ministering spirits sent forth to assist the inheritors of salvation.
And that salvation has COME to the remnant man-child collective.

And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night.

And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death. (vs. 9,10)


Everything the Devil does on the earth including summoning up Antichrist and his false prophet is the result
of his expulsion. He pulls out all the stops then because he knows God's saints are close to sending him to the lake of fire.

Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time.

And when the dragon saw that he was cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who brought forth the man-child.


Gladness, kingdom, and salvation is the overomers in heaven.
Woe, persecution, idolatry, great tribulation to those awaiting Christ's victory at Armegeddon.
Satan and his angels in Revelation 12:7-9 will be cast down to earth from the second heaven, by Michael and his angels. It will happen after 1260 days of Revelation 12:6 which are the testimony period of the two witnesses.

The last straw, as you put it, is when the beast-king in Revelation 11 kills the two witnesses, once their 1260 days ends. Three and half days later, the two witnesses come back to life and are called up to heaven.

Then after a great earthquake in Jerusalem, the 7th angel sounds his trumpet, which in the days of , the mystery of God will be finished, Revelation 10:7. That mystery is how God will remove Satan from power and kingdoms of this world brought in to subjugation of Christ's rule on this present world - called the millennium rule of Christ. As the Kingdom of Heaven is brought to earth and becomes the Kingdom of God on earth. Which is in the Lord's prayer - "Thy Kingdom come" "Thy will be done on earth, as it is in Heaven."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is not the lives of righteous persons who bring about the great tribulation, but that of wicked. Just as Noah was found righteous was not the cause of the flood, but the acts of the wicked.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Revelation 12:10 is about the Jews finally embracing Jesus as the messiah and the gospel of Salvation.

The basis for Christianity is the teachings of Jesus. The two core doctrines are the gospel of Salvation and the gospel of the Kingdom.
 
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oikonomia

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Satan and his angels in Revelation 12:7-9 will be cast down to earth from the second heaven, by Michael and his angels. It will happen after 1260 days of Revelation 12:6 which are the testimony period of the two witnesses.
My replies will gravitate towards my OP. Whether from the 3rd heaven or 2nd heaven there is no more place
for him because rhe overcomers who are the man-child have been caught up to God's throne.

The connection between what the good angels do and what has happened to the man-child must be realized.
Verse 5 is the catalyst causing verse 7.

Verse 5 - . . . and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

Verse 7 - And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels went to war with the dragon. . . .

The church's battle is a spiritual one and not against flesh and blood.

For our wrestling is not against blood and flesh but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenlies. (Eph. 6:12)

And as Micahel and Gabriel assisted the godly Daniel so the good angels serve the stronger part of the woman - the man-child
in spritual warfare.

Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth for service for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation? (Heb. 1:14)

When the overcomers as the man-child arrive to God's throne they will no doubt give the command upon which the
good angels will then respond. Perhaps the speaking of the overcomers will be like this -

"Satan, we overcame you on earth. Through God's grace we overcame everything you did to stop God's konghdom.
Now we have been resurrecred and raptured up here. What are you doing here. In the name of Jesus the Lord and Victor
we bind you and command you now leave this heavenly realm. Your accusations against God's people have been nullified.
Now the kingdom has come to us and we command you to leave."

We should sometimes speak to Satan this way and let him know that Jesus has overcome for us.
And we overcome in Jesus.

At any rate since "Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom . . . "
the good angels who are ministering spirits "sent forth for service for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation"
do their assigned part to assist the raptired saints.

The last straw, as you put it, is when the beast-king in Revelation 11 kills the two witnesses, once their 1260 days ends. Three and half days later, the two witnesses come back to life and are called up to heaven.
The two witnesses will not be killed if there is no Antichrist to kill them.
There is no Antichrist to kill them if he is not summoned up by Satan.
Satan will not summon him up intil he is cast down from his heavenly activity of accusatio,
And he will be cast down because the good angels drive him out.
And the good angels do so because of the corporate man-child's rapture to the throne of God.

That is what I am attempting to show you.

Also it is at the rapture of the overcomers that the1,260 days commence. And those are the same as the two
witness have their testimonyy.

Imediately following the rapture of the man-child:

. . . and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place there
prepared by God so that they might nourish her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days. (Rev. 12:5c,6)

The testimony of the two witnesses during those same days:

And I will cause My two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth. (Rev.11:3)


Then after a great earthquake in Jerusalem, the 7th angel sounds his trumpet, which in the days of , the mystery of God will be finished, Revelation 10:7.
I understand that. But leaning towards my OP the strategic advantage gained by the overcomers is the catalyst of the last days.
We as Christians should graduate now at just considering outward things. It is time we see the inward advancement of Christ
in or beings - saturating, permeating, and causing us to overcome which beings abour this things.

Towards the beginning of this thread I emphasizd the the prophecy of Jeremiah was half the cause of the return from Babylon.
The other essential half was the godly Daniel's living and petitions for God to do what He had promised.
And this Daniel did risking his life.

Now this is a good time for me to say the man-child in Revelation 12 just represents overcomers who have died.
. . . they loved not their soul-life even unto death. (v.11)

The same principle of a rapture of LIVING overcomers will apply around that same time.

At that time two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left.
Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left.
Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes. (Matt. 24:40-42)


So a remnant of deceased overcomers will be raptured pre-tribulation.
And a remnant of living overcomers will also be raptured pre-tribulation around the same time.

Without such raptures, of the deceased overomers and the living overcomers, the great tribulation
will not have a cuase to start. Christ is not waiting for the beast as much as He is waiting for His saints to
preparesd themselves and be ready - overcoming through His sufficuent grace,

It is not the lives of righteous persons who bring about the great tribulation, but that of wicked. Just as Noah was found righteous was not the cause of the flood, but the acts of the wicked.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are not completely correct here.
This herald of righteousness also condemned the world according to Hebrews

By faith Noah, having been divinely instructed concerning things not yet seen and being moved by pious fear, prepared an ark for the salvation of his house, through which he condemned the world, , , , (Heb 11:7)

Yes he did hve God's warning of empending judgment.
But we should not underestimate that Noah's righteousness caused God to act upon His word.
You see the ark saved Noah from the flood.
But the water saved Noah from that evil generation.

The ark saved Noah from the flood of water.
The flood of water saved Noah from that evil hopeless generation.

God could point to Noah and say in essence "You see it is possible or a manto live godly in this age. Therefore judgment
woll; fall upon the rest of you."

I did not ignore your comment after this. But I cut short this post here.
 
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Douggg

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My replies will gravitate towards my OP. Wheather form the 3rd heaven or 2nd heeaven there is no more place
for him because rhe overcomers who are the man=child have been caught up to God's throne.
The man child is Jesus.
 
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Douggg

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When theovercomers asthe man-child arrive to God's throne they will no doubt give the command upon which the
good angels will then respond. Perhaps the speaking of the overcomers will be like this -

"Satan, we overcame you on earth. Through God's grace we overcame everything you did to stop God's konghdom.
Now we have been resurrecred and raptured up here. What are you doing here. In the name of Jesus the Lord and Victor
we bind you and command you now leave this heavenly realm. Your accusations against God's people have been nullified.

Now the kingdom has come to us and we command you to leave."
No, it is not the overcomers who will issue the command for Michael and his angels to cast Satan and his angels down to earth. But God.

Ezekiel 28:
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.


God is the One who will direct Michael and his angels to cast Satan and his angels down to earth.

Satan will then incarnate the statue image of the beast-king making it appear to come to life and speak. When Jesus Returns, by the brightness of His Coming, the outer facade of the statue image will go up in flames, turned to ashes - and there will be Satan exposed on the temple mount - for everyone to behold him, i.e. see him.
 
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oikonomia

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The man child is Jesus.
The man-child is definitely Jesus but Jesus wrought and worked into the beings of the corporate group.
There is no way they or we or anyone can overcome except through the life og Jesus.

there is no ones else in the chapter thatthe plural pronouns "they" and "their" and "them" could refer to
except the man-child.

Who else qualifies in the chapter to be the referent of this passage?

And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death. (Rev. 12:10)

Clearly the "they" in verse 11 refers to the "brothers" [them] who were under Satan's nagging accusation in verse 10.
Am I right Dougg?

. . . for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night. (v.10)
And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb . . . (v.11)
 
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Douggg

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Who else qualifies in the chapter to be the referent of this passage?

And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death. (Rev. 12:10)

Clearly the "they" in verse 11 refers to the "brothers" [them] who were under Satan's nagging accusation in verse 10.
Am I right Dougg?

. . . for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night. (v.10)
And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb . . . (v.11)
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Verse 10 is referring to the en-masse embracing of Jesus and the gospel of Salvation - by the Jews, Israel.

Verse 11 is about by their (the Jews, Israel) embracing Jesus and the gospel of Salvation, by which they over come Satan's long term accusation against them (the Jews, Israel) that they killed Jesus, rejected Jesus as their king, and are thus are unsaved.

The Jews, Israel, will become believers in Jesus in the middle of the seven years, after their thought to be messiah - the Antichrist - betrays them.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Romans 11:
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
 
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oikonomia

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No, it is not the overcomers who will issue the command for Michael and his angels to cast Satan and his angels down to earth. But God.
Do you recall Christ promising that the prevailing church can bind in harmony with God's binding and loosein harmony with God's
loosing?

Truly I say to you, Whatever you bind on the earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on the earth shall have been loosed in heaven. Again, truly I say to you that if two of you are in harmony on earth concerning any matter for which they ask, it will be done for them from My Father who is in the heavens. (Matt. 18:18,19)


Christianity today has lost this sense of authority. That is why this talk seems strange to many.

Have you not read how if we are right with God and with one another we can ASK whatever we will and Christ will
do it for us?

If you abide in Me and My words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you. (John 15:7)

Degraded Christiandom has lost this sense of utter coordination between His will and the church's petitions.

Even in the OT God told the Israelites that if they were faithful they could COMMAND Him concerning His will for His sons.

Thus says Jehovah, The Holy One of Israel and the One who formed him,
Ask Me about the things to come concerning My sons,
And concerning the work of My hands, command Me. (Isa. 45:11)

Pay attention just for a moment more please.
The Lord showed not only how to pray asking prayer but COMMANDING prayer as well.

Truly I say to you that whoever says to this mountain, Be taken up and cast into the sea, and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says happens, he will have it. (Mark 11:23)

This is Jesus teaching His disciples commanding prayer with authority. It is not for trivial things.
It is for great things hindering His economy. It is authoritative prayer to remove obstacles against the will of God.

Pentacostalism may have usurped this verse to apply it to trivialities or things of individual nuisance.
The promise concerns authoritative commanding for the accomplishment of God's kingdom.
Such is the command of the man-child for God to send His angels to drive Satan permenantly from his wondering up to
God to accuse the saints. (See Job 1;6,7)

Then one day, when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah, Satan also came among them.
And Jehovah said to Satan, Where have you come from? And Satan answered Jehovah and said, From roving the earth and going about in it.

I need some time to digest your other comments.
 
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Douggg

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I need some time to digest your other comments.
It is God who takes up His Great Power and decides to give the order for Michael and his angels to cast Satan and his angels down to earth.

Satan, knowing then that his time is short has great wrath. "Woe to the inhabiters of the earth". The third woe.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

There will be rejoicing in heaven over Satan losing his grip over the nations. Revelation 11:14-19 gives the account from the heaven side and them in heaven. They praise God for putting into motion the ending to Satan's involvement over the nations.

Revelation 11.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. [in Revelation 12:12]

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

------------------------------------------

Revelation 12 then describes the follow up description beginning with Satan being cast down to earth, and the fall of his mystical kingdom of his angels and demons called Babylon the Great. Babylon is fallen, is fallen! He will have a time/times/half times left.
 
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