A quick question about the Dragon

[3 Resurrections]

1. Earth was created sinless and perfect - in 7 literal days Gen 1:2-Gen 2:3, Exodus 20:11.
2. There was war in heaven and satan and his angels were cast out.

This idea of Satan being cast out of heaven before Adam and Eve's fall into sin was basically what I was taught in my youth. But there is a problem with the timing of this. Satan still had access to heaven in Job when he presented himself along with the other sons of God, so apparently the "casting out" of Satan and his angels from heaven could not have been before mankind's fall in the Garden of Eden.

If you pay careful attention to the Revelation 12 context, the means by which Satan the Dragon was cast out were revealed by the loud voice which said "NOW is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ...And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb..." Every one of these high-lighted items occurred after the crucifixion of Christ and His first ascension on that morning after His resurrection. The shed blood of the Lamb is a dead give-away that this casting out of Satan and his angels from heaven was a post-crucifixion event.

Didn't Christ in Matt. 28:18 also tell the disciples before His final ascension, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth..."?

Wasn't the ascending Son of Man in Daniel 7:14 brought near before the Ancient of Days and given "dominion, and glory, and a kingdom..."?

Didn't Ephesians 1:19-20 speak of "the working of His mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality and power, and might, and dominion..."?

Didn't Christ Himself predict this SOON "casting out" of Satan to the people of Israel just five days before His crucifixion? In John 12:31, Jesus told them, "NOW is the judgment of this world:" (the judgment of a wrathful Satan being cast out unto the earth and the sea for that "short time" - Rev. 12:12). "NOW shall the prince of this world be CAST OUT." (Satan the "prince of this world" being cast out of heaven with his angels, that is), "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die."

Satan's wrathful "short time" of plaguing the inhabitants of the earth (the land of Israel) and the sea (Gentile lands) may have been a "woeful" period of intense deception and torment, but it was mercifully brief. And John in Rev. 12:12 said that "short time" had already begun while he was writing Revelation. Since Satan knew he did not have much longer to operate in this world during that "short time", he made the most of his opportunity in those first-century days. This is not a threat we need to anticipate in these days.

 

[BobRyan]

This idea of Satan being cast out of heaven before Adam and Eve's fall into sin was basically what I was taught in my youth. But there is a problem with the timing of this. Satan still had access to heaven in Job when he presented himself along with the other sons of God, so apparently the "casting out" of Satan and his angels from heaven could not have been before mankind's fall in the Garden of Eden.

Satan was "the covering Cherub" standing in the presence of God - according to Ezek 28. No sin can exist in the presence of God. The war in heaven and casting Satan and his angels out of heaven happened before the Garden of Eden was created.

But as you point out - this did not mean that at the council of Job 1 and 2 he was not allowed to attend. Satan is his "evil" name. And that is the name he goes by in Job 1. The name of the adversary, the accuser of the brethren and he insults God to his face in Job 1 where he (Satan) claims to represent Earth. Which he can only do because Earth had been turned over to him at the fall of Adam.

You assume that the council of Job 1 must certainly be in the same location of heaven where the throne of God is and where Satan was cast out when he lost that initial battle. But that is an assumption.

Rev 12 is announcing a further development in that war between Christ and Satan that began in heaven. Earth was only "handed over to Satan" (as we see in Luke 4) - because Adam handed it over at his fall. Satan already has it by the time he gets to the Job 1 and 2 incident.

Job 1 is not a point before his name was changed to Satan - but afterwards as the text points out.

The "covering cherub" of Ezek 28 could not be "called Satan" while doing that job still standing in the very presence of God without being totally wiped out. Evil of that intense sort could not exist in the presence of God

If you pay careful attention to the Revelation 12 context, the means by which Satan the Dragon was cast out were revealed by the loud voice which said "NOW is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ...And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb..."

It shows that the Gospel deals another defeat to Satan. (So then after the crucifixion of Christ) - which means that after the cross Satan suffers another loss and can no longer appear in those Job 1 councils.

Didn't Christ in Matt. 28:18 also tell the disciples before His final ascension, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth..."?

Yes but after that in 2Thess 2 Paul predicts that in the future Satan comes with great deception to the people of Earth --

8 Then that lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will eliminate with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not accept the love of the truth so as to be saved.

Satan is still at war against Christ. And while he has lost some battles so far - he is by no means unprepared to fight the next one.

Christ will come and rapture the church 1 Thess 4:13-18, then it is that Christ slays all the wicked as we see in Rev 19 "and the rest were killed" ... and it is only at that point that Satan is bound and has no access to the nations.

Then Rev 20 tells us there will be a 1000 year period of time after which Satan is again given access to the nations of the wicked resurrected in the 2nd resurrection and he leads the armies of the wicked to surround Christ and the saints who at that time are in the New Jerusalem on Earth -- see Rev 20:7-11

7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.​

 

[friend of]

Revelation 12:10

 

[Joined2krist]

If satan is the Father of lies and there is no truth in him, why are believers agreeing with what he said in Luke 4, was this earth really handed over to him?

 

[Joined2krist]

Satan was "the covering Cherub" standing in the presence of God - according to Ezek 28. No sin can exist in the presence of God. The war in heaven and casting Satan and his angels out of heaven happened before the Garden of Eden was created.

But as you point out - this did not mean that at the council of Job 1 and 2 he was not allowed to attend. Satan is his "evil" name. And that is the name he goes by in Job 1. The name of the adversary, the accuser of the brethren and he insults God to his face in Job 1 where he (Satan) claims to represent Earth. Which he can only do because Earth had been turned over to him at the fall of Adam.

You assume that the council of Job 1 must certainly be in the same location of heaven where the throne of God is and where Satan was cast out when he lost that initial battle. But that is an assumption.

Rev 12 is announcing a further development in that war between Christ and Satan that began in heaven. Earth was only "handed over to Satan" (as we see in Luke 4) - because Adam handed it over at his fall. Satan already has it by the time he gets to the Job 1 and 2 incident.

Job 1 is not a point before his name was changed to Satan - but afterwards as the text points out.

The "covering cherub" of Ezek 28 could not be "called Satan" while doing that job still standing in the very presence of God without being totally wiped out. Evil of that intense sort could not exist in the presence of God



It shows that the Gospel deals another defeat to Satan. (So then after the crucifixion of Christ) - which means that after the cross Satan suffers another loss and can no longer appear in those Job 1 councils.



Yes but after that in 2Thess 2 Paul predicts that in the future Satan comes with great deception to the people of Earth --

8 Then that lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will eliminate with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not accept the love of the truth so as to be saved.

Satan is still at war against Christ. And while he has lost some battles so far - he is by no means unprepared to fight the next one.

Christ will come and rapture the church 1 Thess 4:13-18, then it is that Christ slays all the wicked as we see in Rev 19 "and the rest were killed" ... and it is only at that point that Satan is bound and has no access to the nations.

Then Rev 20 tells us there will be a 1000 year period of time after which Satan is again given access to the nations of the wicked resurrected in the 2nd resurrection and he leads the armies of the wicked to surround Christ and the saints who at that time are in the New Jerusalem on Earth -- see Rev 20:7-11

7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.​

He was overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the proclamation of this truth. This means that the event happened after the death of Christ and not before...

 

[TheWhat?]

If satan is the Father of lies and there is no truth in him, why are believers agreeing with what he said in Luke 4, was this earth really handed over to him?

I was thinking the same thing. Then again, at the time this was written, Israel would have been under the control of a pagan empire, which was not really an unusual thing at that point. So there is an element of truth to it, but prior to that we have a psalmist proclaiming "the earth is the Lord's and all its fullness," so apparently it's maybe a half-truth, which we should probably expect.

 

[d taylor]

I've been reading the book of Revelation and meditating on it. My question is on these verses 'Rev 12:9, 12 & 17'
.
The huge dragon was thrown out- that ancient serpent, called the devil or satan, that deceived the whole world. he was thrown down to earth, and all his angels with him'

Why earth?


vs 12 'And so be glad, you heavens and all you that live there! But how terrible for the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, and he is filled with rage, because he knows that he has only a little time left'

again, why does earth and sea have to accommodate him and his demons until his time is over?

vs17 ' The dragon was furious with the woman and went off to fight against the rest of her descendants, all those who obey God's commandments and are faithful to the truth revealed by Jesus'

This makes me think that the earth is a condemned place and a hostile place for believers, am i right or wrong?

Because more than likely you ( along with most of christianity) have believed the science lies over the years that there is the huge universe containing more planets, other worlds, etc... with trillions of light years of space.

But God's creation as given in The Bible is heaven and earth, so there is no where else for satan to go.
Either heaven or earth, or eventually under the earth in the bottomless pit. So The Messiah can rule the earth (1000 year rule) without an interference/influence of satan.

If there were other worlds (trillion of light years away, etc..) or a place God could have sent satan then, like you were wondering why not send satan trillions of light years away. But the truth is there is no outer space with trillions of light year of space where God could send satan.

The Bible is clear on God's creation, it is heaven and earth. It is just short of christian's who actually believe the creation God created in The Bible. Science has polluted the mind, i am sure inspired by satan.

Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished.

Our help is in the name of the Lord,
Who made heaven and earth.

“O Lord of hosts, God of Israel, the One who dwells between the cherubim, You are God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth.

 

[d taylor]

If satan is the Father of lies and there is no truth in him, why are believers agreeing with what he said in Luke 4, was this earth really handed over to him?

The kingdoms were, and he is ruling them to this day. And when the time comes satan will offer them (kingdoms of the earth) again to another person (Jesus rejected his offer).

This person will accept satans offer (the king of the north, man of sin, beast out of the earth all the same person) he will make war and no one will be able to go against him.

So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”

So satan will eventually trade his kingdoms of the earth for the worship he will receive from the man of sin and the antichrist.

 

[Ligurian]

I've been reading the book of Revelation and meditating on it. My question is on these verses 'Rev 12:9, 12 & 17'
.
The huge dragon was thrown out- that ancient serpent, called the devil or satan, that deceived the whole world. he was thrown down to earth, and all his angels with him'

Why earth?


vs 12 'And so be glad, you heavens and all you that live there! But how terrible for the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, and he is filled with rage, because he knows that he has only a little time left'

again, why does earth and sea have to accommodate him and his demons until his time is over?

vs17 ' The dragon was furious with the woman and went off to fight against the rest of her descendants, all those who obey God's commandments and are faithful to the truth revealed by Jesus'

This makes me think that the earth is a condemned place and a hostile place for believers, am i right or wrong?

Depends on what you believe.
Purple = the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven.

12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
12:12 Therefore rejoice, heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the Commandments of God, and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ.

8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He hath declared to His servants the prophets.
11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The Kingdoms of this world are become of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.
12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the Kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Matthew 13:10-11 And the Disciples came, and said unto Him, Why speakest Thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, but to them it is not given.
(the mystery of God: Psalms 145:13, 2 Samuel 7:12, 1 Chronicles 22:10, Psalms 45:6-8, Isaiah 9:6-7, etc.)

 

[BobRyan]

He was overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the proclamation of this truth. This means that the event happened after the death of Christ and not before...

Rev 12:
5 And she (nation church of Israel) gave birth to a Son (Christ), a male, who is going to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her Child was caught up to God and to His throne (Christ's bodily resurrection and ascension). 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness (Christian church persecuted) where she *had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for 1,260 days (1260 years - as in Dan 7 seventy weeks is 490 years - the dark ages)

The Angel, Michael
7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, 8 and they did not prevail, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old (he was already Satan in the garden of Eden) who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. (Satan further defeated at the cross and lost his hold on Job 1 realms above)

10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,
“Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers and sisters has been thrown down, the one who accuses them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.

While it is true that the book of Revelation is not a sequential presentation of history all in sequence - it has short segments that are in sequence. For example in Rev12
1. The Jewish nation church awaiting the Messiah
2. The dragon waiting to destroy Chris from his birth onward
3. At Christ's ascension into heaven - Satan loses another big battle in the war over control of Earth and the salvation of mankind. He knows that as a result "he has but a short time" - where no world except Earth has joined him
4. Persecution of the saints for 1260 years in the dark ages at some point after Christ's return to heaven

 

[covid-19v1]

Revelation 12 reveals an important time line about Satan. The repeated mention of the dragon and the woman tells us the events mentioned here is in chronological order.

When the only begotten Son of God left heaven to be conceived inside the womb of a virgin, Satan thought that was the best opportunity for him to conduct a mutiny in heaven.

Satan was able to trick a third of the angels (Revelation 12:4). I don't know exactly how Satan did it, but he may have said something like this to the angels...
You have never transgressed any of God's commandments and been serving Him for a long time. And never did He throw you a party for your faithfulness. But He sent His only begotten Son to redeem the seed of the transgressors, and everybody is preparing a big celebration to welcome them back. God will be making them equals with all of us. We were here first, but God is making us last. Let us all rebel against God and demand the same treatment He is giving the sons of men!

After taking a third of the angels with him, Satan's pride and overconfidence swallowed him. Satan thought he discovered a weakness in God while His only begotten Son seems to be "trapped" in a weak human body. Maybe he can tempt His Son into joining and serving him? (Luke 4)

Satan found out he can't tempt the Son of God. But he still thought he had the chance against the remaining angels of God. Satan probably thought...
If there is any chance to fight God, the best opportunity is probably now, while His Son is away.

And Satan took his angels with him to war against the angels of heaven....And that was the last time Satan had set his foot in the heavenly realm, because he and his angels suffered a great defeat. (Revelation 12:7-9)

The Son of God was watching how Satan fell like lightning from heaven. Satan's minions even tried to possess some people and animals (out of frustration?). But they were driven away by the disciples of Jesus Christ the Son of God. (Luke 10:17-18)