A Question

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A Question

Quote:
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Hey John,

Will Judas Iscariot, Adolf Hitler, Jeffrey Dahmer, Ghengis Khan and Nero be in heaven?
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The Supreme Judge who does not lie says this:

Isaiah 2:1. The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2. And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

Isaiah 25:6. And in this mountain shall the Lord of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined. 7. And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. 8. He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the Lord hath spoken it.

Isaiah 57:16. For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made. 17. For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him: I hid me, and was wroth, and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart. 18. I have seen his ways, and will heal him: I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners. 19. I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the Lord; and I will heal him.

Isaiah 66:18. For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. 21. And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord. 22. For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

Isaiah 53:1. Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? 2. For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3. He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

John 12:32. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

John 5:25. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

John 10:28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Hosea 13:14. I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

Revelation 1:18. I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Revelation 9:6. And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Revelation 6:9. And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the (Heavenly ) altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11. And white robes (Revelation 19:8, Romans 5:15-21) were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 5:9. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10. And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
13. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Romans 14:4. Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 7. For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. 9. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. 10. But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand (not perish) before the judgment seat of Christ. 11. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. 13. Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

What are those scriptures saying to you? I wrote none of those scriptures! God did it through those writers a couple of thousand years ago! Blesses are all those wuth seeing eyes, hearing ears and minds that understand! They shall know the loving kindness of the of our Creator-Father! If you have the mean spirit and mad mind of a bitter "elder son", you will feel like those scriptures are a pot of boiling oil thrown at you from your computer screen!

John,
GOOD NEWS , Inc.

 

[deg]

John,

the problem with this is that the promise is unto 'them that believe on His name.' We are given no promise outside that promise for the heavenly city. Those that are devoted to His fear, who think upon His name, that love Him receive that promise. Doesn't it seem to more encapsulate the message of scripture to admit that those who do believe receive, and those who do not believe are 'damned?'

Mark 16:16

KJV He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

NLT Anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved. But anyone who refuses to believe will be condemned.

The Message: Whoever believes and is baptized is saved; whoever refuses to believe is damned.

Pretty clear. Our understanding of what damnation or condemnation is may be askew, but the weeping and gnashing of teeth, as the other thread put forward, is real too.

'Damned:'

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Strong's Number: 2632[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]kat-ak-ree'-no [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Verb [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]D[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]efinition[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]

1. to give judgment against, to judge worthy of punishment
   1. to condemn
   2. by one's good example to render another's wickedness the more evident and censurable

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]King James Word Usage - Total: 19; [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]condemn 17, damn 2[/FONT][/FONT]

It's interesting to note that the word is far more highly translated 'condemn,' but the translation is not really our concern. What God is saying in this scripture is probably more our concern. I'm not trying to undermine the validity of the other scriptures of 'all nations' etc, just to encapsulate the entirety of scipture to obtain the right view.

Goodnews, I understand a to some degree the desire within to hope that all men, good, evil, believer, unbeliever, will eventually bow the knee perpetually in worship, harmony, adoration, and will not receive judgement. But scripture declares, most authoritatively, most repeatedly, most concisely, that there is severe judgement upon those that reject Christ in their lives as King.

It should be noted also that hope isn't God. God is hope. What I mean is that the guiding light for interpretation of these scriptures shouldn't be the dissemination of hope; it should be Christ's love, His Word of hope, and His principles. And His word of hope was this:

Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.

But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

He that believes shall be saved.

Faith, and God's promise of life are two in one, inseparable. Outside of that, Christ offers no hope. In fact he affirms the punishment due.

 

[deg]

Goodnews,

as a note also, Romans 14:10 doesn't mean not perish. It means to present, to appear, to stand beside or be put near. It doesn't even seem to have a hint of 'to not perish' in it.

And we aren't the ones judging the servant; Christ says that the word that He spoke to whomever will judge. And this is a word that He told us; those who believe will be saved. Those who do not, will bear their punishment. He said it! His word judges.

You do have a tendancy to split scriptures up too. There are always balancing scriptures in the bible; yes He draws all men, but few are actually chosen. All men eventually will hear His Voice, but what will He be pronouncing to them? We all like sheep have gone astray, but to those that gather with Him He will cover, and give them their own land; those who don't gather with Him will scatter. He gives life to His own, but his enemies are destroyed before Him. Christ Himself declares these things! But who knows what will happen in the days to come? He will separate the good fish from the bad, make no doubt! There is a judgement!

Read this portion John, and let me know what you think Christ is saying here:
Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

I think it's pretty clear, don't you? I don't mean to support the modern view of Heaven and Hell, only to say this: look at the scripture, and see what it says about the city, who gets in, who doesn't, and why they do. What is Christ saying, and why is He saying it?

 

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John 17:17. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Matthew 4:4. But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Isaiah 55:8. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. 9. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10. For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11. So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Romans 3:3. For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? 4. God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Romans 4:3. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.


John,
GOOD NEWS, Inc.

 

[deg]

John,

I'm not trying to say that God isn't faithful, He is entirely ready to receive all who come to Him, and will cast none out. He never draws a line, and says 'You've sinned too much, I can't take you back.' He remains ready with mercy.

But we know this also: "It is appointed for man once to die, and then comes the judgement." Yes, there is a judgement. If His works are wood hay and stubble, they ain't gonna endure. If he can be hurt by the second death, well, to the degree that fire can burn, it will!

I'm sure there are mysteries, as to why God is God and some people still fail to apprehend the Presence, or at least a positive relationship with God. But it is not mystery that people deny God. Not that this denial is the end of God's favour towards them, but if that last scripture in your row of scriptures never happens, then the man passes by God's salvation. That is what the New Testament teaches. "he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." This principle is repeated hundreds of times, in many ways and degrees.

A great deal of New Testament teaching is taken up with serious consequences of the rejection of God's Grace. If this wasn't an issue, why would he deal with it? Why when I look at Christ's Words do I see such a distance between His teaching and yours? I mean simply put, you are asserting that God is faithful to the saving of everyone regardless of the earthly life, and the choices they make. Christ never, ever, ever makes a statement even close to that. I mean look at it soberly for one second John, seriously. And please don't respond in scripture, I'd like to honestly hear what you have to say on the issue.


Please read this portion John, and let me know what you think Christ is saying here:
Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

What is going on here?

And I have one other question; what does John refer to when he talks about the 'sin unto death?' If what you're saying is true, these scriptures lose their simple meaning, or am I misinterpreting?

Deg

 

[deg]

And please understand John that I'm not trying to undermine the scriptures which you put down, but simply to put them all in the light of the greater message of scripture. There are hundreds of New Testament verses that relate to judgement, sin, punishment, etc. There are other verses in the New Testament that just don't line up with what you're saying, when looked at with a sober eye.

I'm not a supporter of eternal Hell, but I'd have to say that a scriptural view is more important than a hopeful or enjoyable view. You probably hear that all the time, but if you look at a lot of scriptures in the New Testament, we are given no clear teaching that all men, after death, after punishment and the purging of sin and doubt, will bow to Christ, Worship, and remain in His Presence. Yes, we all will make an account to God in the presence of God, but appearing before His throne isn't a promise for good at all. The promise is never made that all will accept His Law and Grace. Not once. "If I may by all means save some." I think Noah's ark is a good example of what the future may be like, although I tend to think more have accepted God's Grace than 8 people.

I mean come on. Even demons believe; they even bow the knee. But the teaching is clear that they get cast out, into everlasting fire. They are God's enemies! Their shuddering should be a portent of the trouble and distress that awaits those who remain under wrath. God's warnings are very real, and ought to be carefully heeded.

Col 1:15
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—

And John, while this is all true, here is the lynch pin that holds the entire scripture together, is the central teaching of the New Testament, and without which, it means nothing at all:

23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

 

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Isaiah 57:16. For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made. 17. For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him: I hid me, and was wroth, and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart. 18. I have seen his ways, and will heal him: I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners. 19. I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the Lord; and I will heal him

Isaiah 44:21. Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou art my servant: I have formed thee; thou art my servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of me. 22. I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.

Malachi 3:6. For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. 17. And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.


And here is Jesus testifying in his own words

Luke 15:20. And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. 21. And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son. 22. But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: 23. And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: 24. For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

John 10:27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 5:25. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

John 12:32. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The direct testimonies from the mouths of the Father and the Son is all that we need. We can live by them and not bread alone! there are no strings attached and no pre-conditions required.

John,
GOOD NEWS, Inc.

 

[verses]

Luke 16:18-28
18"Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
The Rich Man and Lazarus
19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[a] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
Footnotes:
Luke 16:23 Greek Hades

 

[deg]

John, why don't you respond!? You are aggrevating to write to, 'cause you don't even respond to my question. You already put those scriptures down. I get them. I understand what you're saying. I'm wondering, now, in light of what you are putting forward, how these other scriptures are supposed to be interpreted, if what you're saying is true.

I just see scriptures that simply don't jive with your scriptural meanderings. So what do you do with them? How do you interpret these places of torment, that are past the line of death? Are they purgatory? And what is the smoke that rises forever and ever? What is the second death? What is this place of torment that is apart from the Bosom of Abraham? What is the fire that never dies, and the worm that never dies? And why does Jesus warn about them so much? What is the place of weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth? Where is the outer darkness? What are these things, why are these things, and why would God be so particular to put them in His Bible?

Well, that do you think? I'm no enemy to universalism. I'm not an enemy to the thought that Christ's work was universal and that all men will be saved. FineLinen is one of my favourite theologians.
But I've begun to see that the scripture itself has things that are not consistent with this view, and rather than force scripture to my view, I thought I'd better let what I believed all scripture to be saying take precedent. Do I harbour hope that Christ is universal Maker and Redeemer regardless of human work? Partly. Some part of me rejoices that hope and life are assured. But another part says no, not because it's bitter or self deserving, but because God deserves and wants something from man, something that man can choose not to give. It's not that it's crucial to salvation. God does all of that. But God made man for a level of fellowship that the universalism seems to sap, it makes it a closed loop that is somewhat devoid of what I'd call real life. It becomes all Matrix-like. And what's more, is that the scriptures have some pretty straightforward things in it that seem to be openly denied by someone who professes universalism.

Deg

 

[deg]

CS Lewis wrote the book on what I'm trying to say about the problem with universalism:
"The happiness which God designs for His higher creatures is the happiness of being freely, voluntarily united to Him and to each other in an ecstasy of love and delight compared with which the most rapturous love between a man and a woman on this earth is mere milk and water. And for that they must be free."

And this quote is hilarious to me, but totally unrelated:
"Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn."

 

[cesty]

Indeed, Jesus died for all; but not all are crucified with Christ, so to speak. Gal. 2:20

Only those who do the will of God will enter into heaven. Jn. 3:16; Matt. 7:21-23

Those who live in defiance to God will not enter into heaven. 1Cor. 6:9-10

 

[deg]

Wow Cesty, that's a great point, that only those who do the will of the Father will enter Heaven. That's a reaaally powerful point.

 

[goodnewsinc]

Romans 9:16. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20. Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21. Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22. What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

The "prodigal son" before and after death


Before death

Luke 15:12. And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living. 13. And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living. 14. And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want. 15. And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. 16. And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him. 17. And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!

Conclusion: He lived his liftetime on earth as a "sinner" in church lingo!

After dying


Luke 15:20. And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. 21. And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son. 22. But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: 23. And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: 24. For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.conclusion:Romans 14:7. For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. 9. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. 10. But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. 13. Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

The "elder son" mind REFUSES to rejoice about the salvation of sinning children who die because of unending anger. This anger is contrary to the nature of our Father ... and it is a character flaw in the "elder son"!

Isaiah 57:16. For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made. 17. For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him: I hid me, and was wroth, and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart. 18. I have seen his ways, and will heal him: I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners. 19. I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the Lord; and I will heal him.


Forgiving the sins of ALL MEN is a requirement!

Matthew 6:14. For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15. But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

"Elder sons are in JEOPARDY


Matthew 18:25. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 27. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. 28. But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. 29. And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 30. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. 31. So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. 32. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33. Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34. And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Are YOU an "elder son" who refuses "to forgive all men their trespasses"? Your ARROGANT SELF-RIGHTEOUS attitude has deceived you! You are a candidate for the "tormentors" (demons).


John,
GOOD NEWS, Inc.

 

[cesty]

Are YOU an "elder son" who refuses "to forgive all men their trespasses"? Your ARROGANT SELF-RIGHTEOUS attitude has deceived you! You are a candidate for the "tormentors" (demons).

From the looks of this comment it appears that you are the one who is holding on to something that you need to let go of!

By the way, it isn't an issue of us not forgiving; it is a matter of taking God at His word.

Are you suggesting that all men will be saved and thus enter into the kingdom of God?

If so, you do not agree with what the Bible says, because in Matt. 7:21-23 Jesus makes it very clear that there will be a group of people who will not enter into the kingdom of God, which means they won't be saved.

The Bible also speaks of a lake of fire, which is where these people will go. Rev. 20:13-15

To reject these truths is to call God a liar, because He inspired men to teach these ideas. 2Tim. 3:16

Do you think it makes me happy that these people will be cast into the lake of fire, and thus be cut off from God? It does not. However, it is necessary, because these people hate God, and would never learn to love Him. If they were to be given entrance into the kingdom of God they would make it look just like this sinful world!

 

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2 Timothy 3:16
16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,


How niave is that to assume that because something is in the bible, God-breathed for instruction, that it should be taken at face value

 

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edit dble post

 

[cesty]

2 Timothy 3:16
16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,


How niave is that to assume that because something is in the bible, God-breathed for instruction, should be taken at face value

That is not what I had said.

 

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To reject these truths is to call God a liar, because He inspired men to teach these ideas. 2Tim. 3:16

2 Timothy 3:16
16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,


How niave is that to assume that because something is in the bible, God-breathed for instruction, that it should be taken at face value

That is not what I had said.

Your post says that God inspires men to teach those truths, yet my interpretation of scrpture is that no man shall teach a believer because IF your born again God will be the only Teacher. "call no man father, teacher, master"
Therefore there is no man appointed as teacher in the bible but ALL is there for instruction, the good, the bad and the ugly.

 

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Are you suggesting that all men will be saved and thus enter into the kingdom of God?

And ....YES! But it is not "ME" suggesting that! The Word states that exactly! What do these Words state quite clearly ... and mind who is saying it?

Isaiah 2:2. And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. 4. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.


Isaiah 25:6. And in this mountain shall the Lord of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined. 7. And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. 8. He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the Lord hath spoken it. 9. And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the Lord; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

Isaiah 57:16. For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made. 17. For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him: I hid me, and was wroth, and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart. 18. I have seen his ways, and will heal him: I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners. 19. I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the Lord; and I will heal him.

Isaiah 66:18. For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. 21. And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord. 22. For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

A message for all blind "elder sons" (and daughters)

Isaiah 55:8. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. 9. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10. For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11. So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

So do not say, "John, YOU are saying that all men are saved"! That misses the point! The Father, Supreme Judge and Savior is speaking with His own voice and these Words did proceed from His own lips. He is telling YOU that He is saving all men in all nations forever! Perhaps YOU do not recognize His voice!? Perhaps YOU do not know your own Father!

Matthew 11:25. At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

I am one of His sheep! I heard His voice and I follow Him! Praise our Almighty Father and Mother Wisdom!

John,
GOOD NEWS, Inc.

 

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otoh, the prophets of the old testement couldn't see the valley between the two mountains that is Christianity and for that reason didn't recognize that they needed two interpretaions. One that dealt with the old creation and one that dealt with the new creation. Christianity fails to recognize what is in place for leading to Christ, set for patterns of things to follow for the overcomers who are born into the family of God. The valley between the age of grace and the age of eternity is the valley of the millinium that can't be given the same interpretaion as the old creation or that of etenity.iow, not everything is written in black and white. What is written in stone deosn't apply to hearts of flesh for God and visversa