A question

[JustJack!]

It's not just religious people that are against the idea of so called gay marraige.I am an atheist and the whole idea is just not right.I don't believe a constitutional amendment will ever be passed prohibiting it though.If same sex marraige ever does pass,the only winners will be the divorce lawyers.

Well good. Finally someone might be able to give a clear logical reason why gay marriage shouldn't be allowed.

We're waiting.

 

[Archivist]

Well good. Finally someone might be able to give a clear logical reason why gay marriage shouldn't be allowed.

Of course, the logical thing would be for the government to get out of the business of licensing marriages. Prior to about the 1820's (I can't give an exact date because laws vary from state to state) marriage was not licensed by the state. You either had a church wedding or you simply lived together and held yourselves out to be husband and wife (so-called Common Law marriages). Licenses were not required in either case; the states didn't get involved.

If we want state regulation in this area--and I understand that there are valid reasons for state regulation--it would make sense to have the states simply issue a civil union license to all couples, homosexual or heterosexual. Marriages would return to being matters for the church. Since some denominations have already indicated that they will preform homosexual marriages, gay couples could go to those denominations if they wanted to change their state-licensed civil union to a church-ordained marriage.

Why won't this happen? Well, I already said that this would be the logical solution. I don't expect the government to act in a logical manner.

 

[Ledifni]

seebs, I was going to write a long response, but jayem says it all:

But consider this. No reasonable person condones the views of the Ku Klux Klan, or the Aryan Nations. Most people would think espousing racial or ethnic hostility quite immoral. Yet reasonable persons still allow such groups to express their opinions. If a city gives a permit to a white supremacist group for a peaceful rally, does that mean the government condones their views? Of course not. It only means that government will tolerate something that many would find offensive and immoral in order to uphold a higher prinicple--that of freedom of expression. So if society should ever recognize same sex unions it doesn't necessarily mean that such unions are condoned. It means that society respects the privacy of consenting adults and treats all people equally under the law.

I would like to add that for any society to exist that is not authoritarian, it is unavoidable to allow things that one disagrees with. The very essence of freedom of speech, religion, the press, assembly, and so forth, is in allowing others the freedom to disagree with you, and by extension, to behave in ways that will offend you (after all, the freedom to personallly disagree is a poor concession if one must keep those disagreements silent and hidden at all times).

So the question is, of course, why should we allow African-Americans the right to desegregation, or women the right to vote, or Buddhists the right to pray, or Nazis the right to march, but not allow gay people the right to marry?

 

[Ledifni]

I would argue that, in fact, their perceptions of the power they have lost in US society is somewhat disproportionate to the actual power they have lost; at the same time, it seems their theology has shifted to the point where they feel the US is a new Zion and they have the right -- nay, the obligation -- to maintain this country as a Christian nation. This latter concept intruigues me, I'll do some research to see if I can find sourced to back up this theological outlook (unless others know of any?).

Just a passing comment -- my parents believe that America is the nation destined to shelter the Christians during the Great Tribulation, and that to that end it is essential to keep it true to God's laws.

 

[Ledifni]

While I whole-heartedly agree, you're being about as idealistic as the Christian Right is in believing this is a Christian nation.

This past election, 11 states put up referendums concerning gay marriage. In all 11 states, the referendums proposing a ban on gay marriage all passed with a 3/4ths majority, or more. Some of the referendums even went so far as to ban civil unions.

This may not be a full blown Democracy, but when 75% of the ppl are against something, do you really think it stands a chance in hell of passing?

The gay rights advocates have gone about this completely wrong. By pushing so hard for something that most ppl oppose, they've created a backlash. A backlash that threatens all of the progress made for them in the past 30 years. Societies change with time, but it takes time. If you subject a society to change before it's time, it set a society back generations.

Just imagine if you tried to allow blacks to vote and marry whites...in the 1860s.

As sad as it is, America just isn't ready to let gays get married yet.

With all due respect, Jack, I strongly disagree. The argument that "we are not ready yet" has been used on every major civil rights movement in history, and it has always been wrong. The people who disagree with gay marriage will never be ready, and unless the public's attitude is changed by a changing environment, every generation will carry on the values of their parents. Change does not happen when the people naturally choose unanimously to change; rather, it happens when there is a need for change, and those with the need put their shoulders to it and make society change.

The fact that it is even possible to have this debate, and that there are people who strongly advocate this right even to the extent that they have achieved it in several places, is evidence enough that we are as ready as we will ever be. If you propose to wait until America one and all walks happily to the gay marriage altar, be prepared to wait forever because that simply won't happen. Did the majority want rights for America's blacks in the 50s? No. Did that stop the movement? Not in the least. It's the pattern of every civil rights movement to face majority opposition. If there were not majority opposition, no civil rights movement would be necessary.

 

[Ledifni]

It's not just religious people that are against the idea of so called gay marraige.I am an atheist and the whole idea is just not right.I don't believe a constitutional amendment will ever be passed prohibiting it though.If same sex marraige ever does pass,the only winners will be the divorce lawyers.

What is "not right" about it? I didn't start this thread to ask whether you think it's right, I started it to ask why you don't think it's right.

 

[JustJack!]

With all due respect, Jack, I strongly disagree. The argument that "we are not ready yet" has been used on every major civil rights movement in history, and it has always been wrong. The people who disagree with gay marriage will never be ready, and unless the public's attitude is changed by a changing environment, every generation will carry on the values of their parents. Change does not happen when the people naturally choose unanimously to change; rather, it happens when there is a need for change, and those with the need put their shoulders to it and make society change.

The fact that it is even possible to have this debate, and that there are people who strongly advocate this right even to the extent that they have achieved it in several places, is evidence enough that we are as ready as we will ever be. If you propose to wait until America one and all walks happily to the gay marriage altar, be prepared to wait forever because that simply won't happen. Did the majority want rights for America's blacks in the 50s? No. Did that stop the movement? Not in the least. It's the pattern of every civil rights movement to face majority opposition. If there were not majority opposition, no civil rights movement would be necessary.

You took my arguement too far. I didn't say we should wait until the whole of America is on board with gay marriage. I just said we should wait until less than 75% of the country is against it.

The fight for civil rights is tedious, and it is long. Civil rights don't come in a generation, or even 2. It was 100 years after we ended slavery that we actually provided the same rights to blacks as we do whites.

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but in the 60's, there wasn't a puch for a Constitutional amendment to maintain the status quo, much less an actual vote on it. America's support for equal rights for blacks was in there favor.

Do you really think doing something that 3/4ths of Americans oppose isn't going to have any consequences?

The journey of civil rights is in baby steps. Civil unions are a fair compromise for both sides.

 

[mepalmer3]

There has been much discussion about this issue, but I don't think I've ever really heard people explain why they feel that their beliefs about homosexuality apply to others. It would seem to me that if you feel homosexuality is wrong, you shouldn't do it, and if you don't feel it's wrong, you should do it if you like. Why, then, do so many religious people seem to want to make sure that everyone else follows their personal sexual morals?

Do you think that gay people will give you cooties, or that your children will get cooties if they go to school with the children of a gay couple? What is it, really? Please, help me to understand. Why, for example, would you prevent a gay couple from getting married in their own church, by a pastor who is willing to consecrate such a marriage? Will the wind bring you cooties from that church? Will you get cooties from the courthouse if they issue marriage licenses to gay couples? What is it that frightens you people so?

1. I don't recall who said it, but I think I prefer for the state to somehow get out of the business of marriages at all. If you want to be married, then go to a church. If you want to live together, then live together.

2. Also, the laws I've heard mentioned don't see, to do anything to stop homosexuality. They just say that the federal government will not support it with tax breaks and so forth.

3. Finally, to the question originally asked... Christianity does teach that there is an objective moral law. So in essence to ask why should we want others to follow that law is similar to asking why should we want others to get their math right.

 

[Wolverine502]

You took my arguement too far. I didn't say we should wait until the whole of America is on board with gay marriage. I just said we should wait until less than 75% of the country is against it.

The fight for civil rights is tedious, and it is long. Civil rights don't come in a generation, or even 2. It was 100 years after we ended slavery that we actually provided the same rights to blacks as we do whites.

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but in the 60's, there wasn't a puch for a Constitutional amendment to maintain the status quo, much less an actual vote on it. America's support for equal rights for blacks was in there favor.

Do you really think doing something that 3/4ths of Americans oppose isn't going to have any consequences?

The journey of civil rights is in baby steps. Civil unions are a fair compromise for both sides.

This is not about civil rights you stupid *******.

 

[JustJack!]

The post about me

This what you call "love the sinner"?

 

[Matt Never Existed]

JustJack!, I wouldn't waste your breath on Wolverine502. Just ignore what he says and focus on people that actually matter.

 

[Bevlina]

...

 

[FadingWhispers3]

The journey of civil rights is in baby steps.

A word from King, for whom I have much respect:

"...We have waited for more than 340 years for our constitutional and God-given rights... Perhaps it is easy for those who have never felt the stingging darts fo segregation to say, 'Wait.'... when you have to concoct an answer for a five-year-old son who is asking, 'Daddy, why do white people treat colored people so mean?'... when you are harried by day and haunted by night by the fact that you are a Negro... then you will understand why we find it difficult to wait."

 

[Wolverine502]

This what you call "love the sinner"?

Of course, if did not care about you I would simply let you destroy yourself and others.

 

[JustJack!]

Of course, if did not care about you I would simply let you destroy yourself and others.

So instead, you insult me, flame me, and call me something that, by Christian standards, is unacceptable?

 

[JustJack!]

The journey of civil rights is in baby steps.

A word from King, for whom I have much respect:

"...We have waited for more than 340 years for our constitutional and God-given rights... Perhaps it is easy for those who have never felt the stingging darts fo segregation to say, 'Wait.'... when you have to concoct an answer for a five-year-old son who is asking, 'Daddy, why do white people treat colored people so mean?'... when you are harried by day and haunted by night by the fact that you are a Negro... then you will understand why we find it difficult to wait."

I say what I say as a bisexual who can never come put to a vasy majority of the ppl he loves because I know where they stand on it.

 

[Wolverine502]

The journey of civil rights is in baby steps.

A word from King, for whom I have much respect:

"...We have waited for more than 340 years for our constitutional and God-given rights... Perhaps it is easy for those who have never felt the stingging darts fo segregation to say, 'Wait.'... when you have to concoct an answer for a five-year-old son who is asking, 'Daddy, why do white people treat colored people so mean?'... when you are harried by day and haunted by night by the fact that you are a Negro... then you will understand why we find it difficult to wait."

This will never be about civil rights, the gays have their rights. This is about taking a perverted, unclean, lifestyle that has been classified as an abomination and trying to normalize it. You want the country to accept it and embrace it and teach our kids that it is normal and acceptable in society. Let me tell you something. Hell will freeze over before that happens. There will always be some of us that holds our ground has our backs against the wall and will fight till the bitter end. Do you know why we do it? Allow me to tell you. We do it because though Lord and Savior has commanded that we serve him, go by his rules, and life a christian lifestyle. If you want a fight then bring it on I will accomodate you.

 

[Matt Never Existed]

We do it because though Lord and Savior has commanded that we serve him, go by his rules, and life a christian lifestyle.

Then by all means, do so. But don't expect anyone to just sit back and allow you to walk over OUR rights.

Regardless of anyone's personal beliefs, this nation is secular, and should not be forced to follow any religion. There's that whole "Seperation of Church and State" thing ya know. If you don't want to accept the fact that homosexuals are people, and are just as normal as you, then don't. But don't attack me and my own, because I won't stand for it. You have been reported for your comments, and I hope your punishment is just.

And I hope that when you stand before your god, he is swift in his punishment for your hatred of other humans.

God bless.

(Sorry for the off topic post. I just think that this has to be said, even though I know it won't mean anything. Some people are so blinded by their own 'holy' hatred for something, that they are lost to reason and will never change. These are the people that others should pray for.)

 

[Wolverine502]

Then by all means, do so. But don't expect anyone to just sit back and allow you to walk over OUR rights.

Regardless of anyone's personal beliefs, this nation is secular, and should not be forced to follow any religion. There's that whole "Seperation of Church and State" thing ya know. If you don't want to accept the fact that homosexuals are people, and are just as normal as you, then don't. But don't attack me and my own, because I won't stand for it. You have been reported for your comments, and I hope your punishment is just.

And I hope that when you stand before your god, he is swift in his punishment for your hatred of other humans.

God bless.

(Sorry for the off topic post. I just think that this has to be said, even though I know it won't mean anything. Some people are so blinded by their own 'holy' hatred for something, that they are lost to reason and will never change. These are the people that others should pray for.)

Better leave politics to the big boys. If you want to rot in the gutter then so be it, but you had better have the nerve not to take others down with you. When you start trying to take others down with you, that is when I step in.

 

[FadingWhispers3]

This will never be about civil rights, the gays have their rights.

My topic is whether or not civil rights should work slowly or as fast as possible. I think that it should work fast even if people all around say it should go slowly. Not whether gays should have marriage. But, thank you for putting your words in my mouth. Try and find where I have posted in this thread that gay marriage is moral and/or that gays have the right to marriage. You can't. Why? Because I haven't said one thing about what my opinion is of homosexuality, but only of civil rights.

It may not be my place to say so, but I think you are a little stressed out if you start believing that people are saying stuff they haven't. Luckily for you, I take no offense.

You want the country to accept it and embrace it and teach our kids that it is normal and acceptable in society.

Again, where have I said that I want everyone to embrace homosexuality as normal? What I personally believe is besides the point. And, indeed, nowhere in this thread have I actually said what I thought of homosexuality. Please. If you wish to have conductive relationships, don't tell people what they believe. It's much nicer to ask them first. Then, if you still disagree, be my guest.

If you want a fight then bring it on I will accomodate you.

Who said I was fighting you? I just quoted Martin Luther King. Martin Luther was a christian. So was King. Why do you object? Do you agree with segregation? I don't think so. Or is it that you believe civil rights should proceed slowly?

Perhaps you should take a break and come back when you are calm enough to not second-guess what other people say.