A Question to the Creationists

loveiseverywhere

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1) Is believing in Creationism essential to salvation on the cross? If so, how? Please cite Biblical scripture.

2) Why do creationists not cut off their eyes and hands when they sin?

3) Why do you think evolution is a tool of the devil? Where does it say this in scripture?
 

jckstraw72

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1. i dont believe that being an evolutionist will keep you from salvation, but i do think it has dangerous implications that if allowed to play out in the Church would be harmful to Christian theology
2. just bc we read Genesis literally doesn't mean we are bound to read everything literally. As an Orthodox Christian, I look to the wisdom of the Church -- the corporate experience of the faithful -- for how to understand Scriptural passages
3. I think evolution is a tool of the devil because it would necessitate the existence of death before human sin, which would mean God is the author of death, which He then declared to be good along with everything else. This then makes Christ's defeat of phsyical death to be meaningless. It also serves as a common creation myth that people from all religions are coming to accept -- this plays well into the one-world religion that the Anti-Christ will establish.
 
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juvenissun

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1) Is believing in Creationism essential to salvation on the cross? If so, how? Please cite Biblical scripture.

2) Why do creationists not cut off their eyes and hands when they sin?

3) Why do you think evolution is a tool of the devil? Where does it say this in scripture?

The reason that we want to read Genesis "literally" is because by doing that we can understand MUCH MORE about the beauty of God's creation, and MUCH MORE about the structure of Christian doctrine.

You do not have to do that. You may take the whole description of Creation metaphorically. I always think it is an easy (lazy) way out and if you do that, you lose A LOT of rewards from God.

-------

I will not chop my hand off if I committed stealing. Because I can repent and I will not steal again. I don't think I can grow another hand out if I chopped it due to my past sin.

I think your question has more to do with the literal reading of the Bible, but not about Creation.
 
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S

Senix

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loveiseverywhere,

loveiseverywhere said:
1) Is believing in Creationism essential to salvation on the cross? If so, how? Please cite Biblical scripture.

I don't think it has been said any clearer than the words of atheist Richard Bozarth (emphasis mine):

It becomes clear now that the whole justification of Jesus' life and death is predicted on the existence of Adam and the forbidden fruit he and Eve ate. Without the original sin, who needs to be redeemed? Without Adam's fall into a life of constant sin terminated by death, what purpose is there to Christianity? None.

Paul acknowledges this in his letter to the Romans:

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned ... for just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

In the Old Testament, we read countless times where animals were sacrificed as an atonement for people's sins. Why did they do this? In a symbolic sense, this was a way of putting their sins on the animal, which stood in the place of the guilty person. It's blood was shed, that is, it took the punishment of death that we rightly deserve. This ritual was, like much of the Old Testament, a foreshadow of the things that Jesus would do when He came to earth. He became the sacrifice for our sins - the Lamb of God. He took the punishment for our sins that we rightly. He was condemned so the guilty could be declared innocent.

If Adam never existed and mankind never fell, then there is no need for a saviour. If death pre-existed before man's sin, then it cannot be a punishment for sin, and so Jesus' death is meaningless, and, as is his victory over physical death, as previously mentioned by jckstraw72. Either way you look at it, there is no purpose to Christianity if Genesis is not literal.

loveiseverywhere said:
2) Why do creationists not cut off their eyes and hands when they sin?

Being a creationist or a literalist does not mean taking every verse to mean exactly what it says all the time no matter what. I believe the technical term for that is "idiocy." A literal approach to Bible study and reading is that we are to take everything to mean what it says unless the context or expression indicates otherwise. For example, I can't imagine a creationist (or anyone) believing that Jesus was a real "good shepherd." Common sense, if such a notion exists, should tell people what the writer means and how to interpret his or her writings.

For example, there is nothing in Genesis that hints in any way that it is to be taken as anything other than what it says. God made the earth and light on day one. Okay. Day two: He separated the waters. Okay. And so on. There is nothing to suggest that it means anything else, and there is certainly nothing to suggest that one can shove millions of years between the days: in addition to saying "day 1, 2, 3, ..." the author also adds the expression "there was evening, and there was morning" to make it beyond doubt that it was a day. We can speculate as to how God did those things (for example, making the sun appear to be standing still for Joshua), but you can't honestly twist Scripture to make it say something that, to be blunt, just isn't there.

loveiseverywhere said:
3) Why do you think evolution is a tool of the devil? Where does it say this in scripture?

For one, I believe Satan uses a general plan that goes something like this: 1. he will distort what God says or present a different story; 2. he will want people to question God; 3. as a result of 1 and/or 2 he will want people to rebel against or reject God. He's had thousands of years of practice against humanity, but the above are the very strategies that he has used against Eve, the prophets, and Jesus and every human being since. Why? Because it's so effective! Evolution can be used to achieve all three: it claims to explain life without God - that's 1 & 3 right there, and for most of those who were not brought up in the church with sound theology it's a closed deal right there. Many sadly don't question beyond that. It can cause people to question God's truthfulness, his qualities such as love, and his promises. They look at the world around them and when they hear about this "God of love," yeah right they say.

The reason why evolutionism is so dangerous to the mission of Christ is that it undermines and destroys the very foundation for the message that Christians proclaim to be true. What happens when you destroy the foundations of a building? It crashes down and becomes worthless, the Gospel is no different. I find it interesting that even atheists readily understand this, but some Christians cannot, or will not, come to the same logical conclusion.

Why do you think that Paul describes "Christ-crucified" as a stumbling block for the Jews, but foolishness to the Gentiles? What did the Jews have that the Gentiles didn't? They had a proper understanding of the foundation of the Gospel: Genesis - man's fall into sin.

In effect, you're saying that Christ-crucified (which is based on the literal fall of mankind and phsycial death as a punishment) is true, yet at the same time you are saying that Adam and Eve are just a myth, that God created using millions of years of suffering and death, and therefore, man did not fall. People like myself who stand on the outside and listen can see the contradiction and so we stop listening and reject it as truth. That is why it is so dangerous. People see major differences between the Bible and the "fact" of evolution.

Ultimately, the question for many becomes: If God didn't tell the truth from the beginning, then when did He start?
 
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alexross8

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You must believe in creation to be saved.

Jesus's inheritance goes all the way back to king David.
King David goes all the way back to Abraham , and goes all the way back to Adam and Eve.

The whole sin thing comes from many concepts of creation.
If you don't beleive in Adam or Eve , then you don't believe in sin , therefore you don't believe in Jesus or his death.

According to theistic evolutionists , Jesus died in vain , therefore isn't a savior of anything.


If your hand causes you to sin , cut it off.
If inappropriate content causes you to sin , destroy it.
If violent video games cause you to sin , destroy them.

Evolution isn't a tool of the devil.
I believe animals can evolve , but I just don't believe anything evolved from a different species.
Humans didn't evolve from apes.

Kinds produce their own kind.

Sure , wolves may have begat dogs , but wolves didn't come from or have any relation to rodents.

tigers may have begat cats , but they are all intentionally just felines.

Felines begat felines.
Canines begat canines.

Abiogenesis is the works of the devil , not evolution.
Evolution just suggests change , thats all.
Anything that goes against the word of God is the works of demons.
 
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Willtor

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This is simply the implication, and theistic evolutionists are not aware of it.

Presumably, anyone who is aware of his or her own sin -- whether he or she knows its origin or not -- can come to Christ for salvation, right?
 
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Isolated this sentence seems to be correct.

So how was the statement an implication? Mind you, I'm not assuming that you know what alexross8 thinks -- just if you think of that as an implication of something...
 
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Willtor

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The problem is that before one can come to Christ he needs to believe in God. In some (!) cases the whole issue might be an indication of mere disbelief.

Oh, yes, of course. But if someone is a theistic evolutionist, doesn't that -- by definition -- indicate a belief in God?
 
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Willtor

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Basicly believing in an eternal being is not enaugh. Muslims believe in a God but it's a misconception of the eternal living God.

It's true that it isn't enough that one acknowledge an eternal Being. So not all theistic evolutionists know God. But presumably if one comes to Christ and recognizes God as his Father (and, consequently, our Father by adoption)...

What I mean to say, as a whole, is that of the theistic evolutionists one is likely to meet on CF, we aren't talking about people who have denied the efficacy of Jesus' death and resurrection.
 
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alexross8

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It's like saying

"I don't believe God did anything for us , yet I feel that my sins need to be forgiven."

Or , "God tried to make humans , but it was hard for him , because he is not omnicient and not all powerful , but I feel that my sins need to be saved"

Or , "God made humans by abusing billions of years of animals"

Either way you look at it , carnivore nature came from man's sin , which is explained in genesis.
How could there be millions of years of carnivorous animals , when man made the first sin only a few thousand years ago ago ?

Lets say that genesis is false.
So everything written by Moses must also be false too .
Sin has no meaning , because it doesn't exist.
Jesus died on the cross for our sins , which do not exist , therefore Jesus died in vain.

"Ape man was walking through the woods , and went back to his village , and discovered he had a son and a daughter that could sin , and he named them Adam and Eve.
God mystically showed up somewhere in Africa (Not Eden) , and told Eve not to eat of the fruit of the tree.
Eve ate anyway , and convinced her brother to eat.
They were cast out of the Garden of Eden by God , which made nothing happen , because there were no Garden of Eden.
So Adam and Eve had children , who were most likely deformed.
Abel looked so butt ugly that Cain killed him.
Anyway , More children had been born , and eventually led birth to Abraham , the father of the Hebrew people.
Abraham led to David's birth.
And along the line , Jesus was born by birthright , to be the descendant of David , and the messiah of the people.
Jesus was crucified fro the sins of mankind.
The End.
I left Noah out , because the flood didn't happen , and Noah doesn't exist."

^ If that is what God really is , screw this , I am gonna become an atheist.
There is no point in believing a god who mindlessly allows animals to suffer for billions of years .

Believe in the whole thing , or don't believe at all.
Because its sinful to pick and choose what to believe and what not to believe from God's mouth.

Evolution , those fossils in the ground , those dna links ,and the mainstream atheists , they are all works of demons and devils.

God said that he would allow people to be deceived in the end times.
He said that fools would roam the Earth , choosing what or what not to believe from any belief they desire.
 
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WingsOfEagles07

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1) Is believing in Creationism essential to salvation on the cross? If so, how? Please cite Biblical scripture.

2) Why do creationists not cut off their eyes and hands when they sin?

3) Why do you think evolution is a tool of the devil? Where does it say this in scripture?


It is not essential but it plays a part or reference to JESUS on the Cross. If the book of Genesis was not literal then how could we use biblcal scripture to say that GOD created everything and then say that JESUS came from a creation from an undefined source? If it was fiction how do we know GOD created it? You know the story of Cain and Abel, Abel pleased GOD with his sacrifice. But Cain got mad and killed Abel. Well, Abel was innocent and Cain was his "Brother." Well, JESUS came into the world without sin and "innocent" but his own people betrayed him and killed him. If the book of GENESIS was not literal but an allegory story then how do we have a basis of justification of these following things:
a) Clothes
b) Reliability of Senses
c) Communication
d) Death
e) Justification for the Restoration point before the Fall
f) Laws of Logic
g) Uniformity of Nature
h) Absolute Morality
& many more to name.

2) The Cutting off hands and eyes in the book of Matthew for example in Matthew 5:28, lust of the eye upon a woman is adultery (not quote perfect) is an example of how bad hell would be. If you notice it talks about that it is better to cut off your hands and go to heaven than to have hands and go to hell. It is better to cutout your eyes and go to heaven than to have eyes and go to hell. This is showing the contrast of how bad hell was, is and forever will be.

3) Why do I think it is a tool of the devil? Well number 1 is attacks the book of GENESIS. One may ask how. Well I will show you a couple problems with evolution and the Bible.

1) If evolution were true that "Mankind" has evolved into what we are now then how did death enter the world by man as stated in Genesis 3 and 1 Corinthians 15:21-23? Evolution shows over the course of Billions of years of death, disease, and struggle man appeared. Well if this was so, how is it that living things died before mankind was around? This produces a contradiction in the Bible, in which the Bible has no contradictions. And people say well God used evolution, well no he did not. If it took GOD billions of years to create our bodies through Evolution, how can GOD create our NEW INCORRUPTIBLE BODIES IN THE TWINKLING OF EYE? If GOD used Evolution or the Big Bang then over billions of years the earth formed, then when GOD destroys this earth and makes a new one how long will this process take? What will be doing while he creates it for billions of years? How can there be a Lion laying with a Lamb in the New earth without Evolution with Death and Disease and struggle?

May GOD Bless You!
Matthew
 
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mark kennedy

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Oh, yes, of course. But if someone is a theistic evolutionist, doesn't that -- by definition -- indicate a belief in God?

Dispite their incredulity even atheists are aware of God's divine nature and eternal godhead:

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (Rom 1:17-20)​

There is no special merit in believing that God exists:

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. (James 2:19)​

Is it? Even for the TEs I've encountered that don't believe Genesis, this seems like a gross misrepresentation.

Don't believe what exactly? Jesus Christ's work in creation is wittnessed to in the New Testament as fundamental to belief in the Gospel. John makes this link from the Old to the New Testament in no uncertain terms:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it...The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1-5, 14)​

You don't really get to decide to accept the Gospel and not believe Genesis. Most of Genesis is focused on the lineage from Adam to Noah in the early chapters. This is followed by nearly 40 chapters narrating redemptive history from Abraham, Issac, Jacob (Israel) and the 12 patriarchs that became the 12 tribes of Israel. Everywhere in the New Testament the credibility of Christ is his lineage and the fullfillment of prophecy regarding him as the Messiah.

To catagorically reject the book of Genesis because of a supernatural element is to reject the Gospel. That's not to say that a more figurative reading of Genesis is nessacarily symtomatic of unbelief.

The thing is, believing in God is normal even for a child of perdition. This has to be followed by a willingness to diligently seek him:

Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for. By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible...And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. (Heb 11:1-3, 6)​

Just as there are different kinds of knowledge and different kinds of love, there are different kinds of belief, faith being trust in the ultimate sense.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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Dispite their incredulity even atheists are aware of God's divine nature and eternal godhead:

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (Rom 1:17-20)​

There is no special merit in believing that God exists:

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. (James 2:19)​

You've quoted my text in your comment, but I'm not clear on how they relate. Could you tell me what you think I was saying?

Don't believe what exactly? Jesus Christ's work in creation is wittnessed to in the New Testament as fundamental to belief in the Gospel. John makes this link from the Old to the New Testament in no uncertain terms:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it...The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1-5, 14)​

You don't really get to decide to accept the Gospel and not believe Genesis. Most of Genesis is focused on the lineage from Adam to Noah in the early chapters. This is followed by nearly 40 chapters narrating redemptive history from Abraham, Issac, Jacob (Israel) and the 12 patriarchs that became the 12 tribes of Israel. Everywhere in the New Testament the credibility of Christ is his lineage and the fullfillment of prophecy regarding him as the Messiah.

To catagorically reject the book of Genesis because of a supernatural element is to reject the Gospel. That's not to say that a more figurative reading of Genesis is nessacarily symtomatic of unbelief.

The thing is, believing in God is normal even for a child of perdition. This has to be followed by a willingness to diligently seek him:

Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for. By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible...And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. (Heb 11:1-3, 6)​

Just as there are different kinds of knowledge and different kinds of love, there are different kinds of belief, faith being trust in the ultimate sense.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Indeed, I think the gospels flow very naturally from Genesis. However, if you talk to some TEs (not so many in my experience, but some), they actually do not have an interpretation for Genesis because they think it is irrelevant. They are mistaken on that last bit. But I don't think it has anything to do with whether God is able to act supernaturally (or any of the other things you mention in your post).
 
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