A question to Roman Catholics about Purgatory

[Valletta]

I am not the one that said a person who is guilt of mortal sin does not qualify for purgatory.. I am just reading 2 Macc 12 ... noticing "the details" and also noticing what the Catholic Church says about purgatory.

First, there are plenty of Catholics who have committed mortal sins and go on to purgatory. It is summed up nicely:

2 Maccabees 12:46 : “It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins.”

This tradition of praying for the dead is still in practice with many Jews today. It is reiterated in the New Testament:

1 Corinthians 3:10-15
By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames. (NIV)

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I notice that in the Roman Catholic Catechism Matthew 12:32-36 is used as evidence to support forgiveness of sin in the age to come which refers to after this world. Here’s a quote directly from the Catechism.

The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire. [Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.] As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. [St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:32-36.]"

The problem I see is that Jesus didn’t actually say that sins will be forgiven in the age to come He specifically said the opposite. Furthermore in Luke 12:10, one of the parallel verses to this passage Jesus specifically states that sin against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven period.

“And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:10‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So their premise regarding Matthew 12:32-36 being evidence of forgiveness of sin in the afterlife is actually in opposition to the parallel verse of Luke 12:10.

On the Remission of Sins After Death

"

Catechism of the Catholic Church
To Catechism home page

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY


1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.



1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. 606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire: 607



As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. 608


1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin." 609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. 610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:



Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them. 611


Notes:
606 Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547): 1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.
607 Cf. I Cor 3:15; I Pet 1:7.

608 St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:31.

609 2 Macc 12:46.

610 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274): DS 856.

611 St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in 1 Cor. 41, 5: PG 61, 361; cf. Job 1:5.



English Translation of the Cathechism of the Catholic Church for the United States of America © 1997, United States Catholic Conference, Inc.

"

 

[Daniel Marsh]

All Souls Day

Verse by Verse Ministry International

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Informative everyone thanks.

It looks that Catholics are winning this round.

End of Round 1.

 

[concretecamper]

It's not about winning. It's about spreading the Gospel. The Gospel is clear about the need for purification after death. People get hung up on the "word" purgatory. People also have been taught falsehoods about what purgatory is and those falsehoods are pretty hard to breakdown. All that can be done is to spread the truth of the Gospel and let the Holy Spirit inspire those who He wishes to look into the matter further.

 

[BNR32FAN]

On the Remission of Sins After Death

"

Catechism of the Catholic Church
To Catechism home page

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY


1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.



1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. 606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire: 607



As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. 608


1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin." 609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. 610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:



Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them. 611


Notes:
606 Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547): 1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.
607 Cf. I Cor 3:15; I Pet 1:7.

608 St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:31.

609 2 Macc 12:46.

610 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274): DS 856.

611 St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in 1 Cor. 41, 5: PG 61, 361; cf. Job 1:5.



English Translation of the Cathechism of the Catholic Church for the United States of America © 1997, United States Catholic Conference, Inc.

"

As I stated before prayers for the dead do not support purgatory because God is both omniscient and omnipresent so God knew those prayers before creation. I could pray for someone 25 years after they died and God would take that prayer into consideration at the time of their death.

So no since that entire argument is null & void it appears the Roman Catholics are not winning after all.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It's not about winning. It's about spreading the Gospel. The Gospel is clear about the need for purification after death. People get hung up on the "word" purgatory. People also have been taught falsehoods about what purgatory is and those falsehoods are pretty hard to breakdown. All that can be done is to spread the truth of the Gospel and let the Holy Spirit inspire those who He wishes to look into the matter further.

The scriptures are clear about purification before death not after.

“And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:21-23‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

There are no passages that indicate atonement after death. If you are abiding in Christ your sins are already atoned. If you stumble in sin and repent your sins are atoned. If you turn away from Christ and do not repent then your sins are not atoned. Death is the cut off point for repentance and atonement.

 

[BNR32FAN]

First, there are plenty of Catholics who have committed mortal sins and go on to purgatory. It is summed up nicely:

2 Maccabees 12:46 : “It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins.”

This tradition of praying for the dead is still in practice with many Jews today. It is reiterated in the New Testament:

1 Corinthians 3:10-15
By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames. (NIV)

Prayers for the dead are not a valid argument. I keep on saying that and people keep ignoring the FACT that God is both omniscient and omnipresent. He knew every prayer ever prayed before creation so He can take those prayers into consideration at the time of the person’s death even if the person prayed 25 years after the person died it still wouldn’t matter.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 doesn’t say that the builder is purified by fire it says his works are purified by fire. That’s why verse 15 says “as if thru flame”.


“Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,

Paul isn’t talking about sin he’s talking about those who are “building on the foundation of Christ”. You can’t build on the foundation of Christ with sin. What he’s talking about are our attempts to evangelize and whether or not they were of any benefit. That’s what he said in verse 8 right before he began this illustration.

each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work.

Each man’s WORK is tested not the evangelist himself.

If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss;

Again the work is tested by fire. Any work that remains will be rewarded in Heaven. Any work that does not remain will not be rewarded in Heaven. We will receive rewards in Heaven if our efforts are successful. If it is not successful we won’t receive a reward for that effort.

but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.”

Doesn’t say he will be saved thru fire it says “as though thru fire” meaning the fire is metaphorical. It also doesn’t say anything about sin or forgiveness in the entire chapter. The whole message was about how both Paul and Apollos were spreading the gospel. That’s what Paul specifically said right before he went into this illustration in verse 8.

“Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3:8‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

This message has absolutely nothing to do with sin or forgiveness.

 

[concretecamper]

The scriptures are clear about purification before death not after.

actually, it's both during and after. Scripture is clear as is Tradition.

There are no passages that indicate atonement after death.

attornment?

Death is the cut off point for repentance and atonement

Ugh, no one is arguing that point. Thank you for proving my earlier post correct. Your answer reflects an unwillingness to let go of the falsehoods you've been taught.

 

[BNR32FAN]

actually, it's both during and after. Scripture is clear as is Tradition.
attornment?


Ugh, no one is arguing that point. Thank you for proving my earlier post correct. Your answer reflects an unwillingness to let go of the falsehoods you've been taught.

No because according to the catechism purgatory is for the forgiveness of sin. Hence the reason they use Christ’s words “blasphemy of the Spirit will not be forgiven in this world or the next” which they claim indicates that some sins are forgiven in this world and others in the next world which is not what Jesus said at all. As I pointed out in the OP in Luke 12:10 Jesus says “blasphemy of the Spirit will not be forgiven”. He never said that some sins will be forgiven in the next world all He said was that blasphemy of the Spirit will not be forgiven in the next world. That doesn’t imply that anything will be forgiven in the next world.

 

[Valletta]

No because according to the catechism purgatory is for the forgiveness of sin. Hence the reason they use Christ’s words “blasphemy on the Spirit will not be forgiven in this world or the next” which they claim indicates that some sins are forgiven in this world and others in the next world which is not what Jesus said at all. As I pointed out in the OP in Luke 12:10 Jesus says “blasphemy of the Spirit will not be forgiven”. He never said that some sins will be forgiven in the next world all He said was that blasphemy of the Spirit will not be forgiven in the next world. That doesn’t imply that anything will be forgiven in the next world.

Sure it does. Jesus added "forgiven in the next world" although such words would not be needed in your version. ALL Scripture is profitable.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Sure it does. Jesus added "forgiven in the next world" although such words would not be needed in your version. ALL Scripture is profitable.

Did He say that sins will be forgiven in the next world? No He said the exact opposite. He specifically said that sins won’t be forgiven in the next world.

 

[zippy2006]

I notice that in the Roman Catholic Catechism Matthew 12:32-36 is used as evidence to support forgiveness of sin in the age to come which refers to after this world. Here’s a quote directly from the Catechism.

The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire. [Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.] As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. [St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:32-36.]"

The problem I see is that Jesus didn’t actually say that sins will be forgiven in the age to come He specifically said the opposite. Furthermore in Luke 12:10, one of the parallel verses to this passage Jesus specifically states that sin against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven period.

“And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:10‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So their premise regarding Matthew 12:32-36 being evidence of forgiveness of sin in the afterlife is actually in opposition to the parallel verse of Luke 12:10.

The idea is that proposition (1) implies proposition (2):

1. The sin against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven either in this age nor in the age to come.
2. Some sins that are not forgiven in this age will be forgiven in the age to come.

If (2) were false then Jesus would have had no reason to distinguish between the current age and the age to come.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The idea is that proposition (1) implies proposition (2):

1. The sin against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven either in this age nor in the age to come.
2. Some sins that are not forgiven in this age will be forgiven in the age to come.

If (2) were false then Jesus would have had no reason to distinguish between the current age and the age to come.

He had a perfectly good reason for mentioning this age or the age to come since He was saying that it will never be forgiven. Have you never heard the expression “not now, not later, not ever”?

Choice number 2 is merely an assumption that is not supported anywhere in the scriptures.

 

[zippy2006]

He had a perfectly good reason for mentioning this age or the age to come since He was saying that it will never be forgiven. Have you never heard the expression “not now, not later, not ever”?

Lol, sure. Jesus was just making use of a bit of empty rhetoric.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Lol, sure. Jesus was just making use of a bit of empty rhetoric.

Yes and there’s also the fact that nowhere in the Bible does it state that sins are forgiven after death.

 

[Valletta]

Where does the Bible say that we can pay for sins thru suffering? That’s the problem with purgatory it’s claiming that we pay for our sins instead of Christ. Christ already paid the price in full. The only one requiring any payment is the Roman Church. A person dies the Roman church tells their family they are suffering in purgatory but if and only if the family will pay the church money then the priests will pray for that person and they will be allowed to enter Heaven. So it’s not God who’s requiring a payment here it’s the Roman Church who concocted this doctrine in the 15th century when the solicitations of indulgences were so bad it led to the Reformation. Purgatory is nothing more than another means of soliciting indulgences.

False, that is a fabrication against the Catholic Church. And please have the courtesy not to call the Catholic Church the "Roman Church." The doctrine of purgatory was not "concocted" in the 15th century as you claim, here is what Clement of Alexandria had to say close to 202 A.D.:

"Accordingly the believer, through great discipline, divesting himself of the passions, passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, viz., to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance from the sins he has committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more--not yet or not quite attaining what he sees others to have acquired. Besides, he is also ashamed of his transgressions. The greatest torments, indeed, are assigned to the believer. For God's righteousness is good, and His goodness is righteous. And though the punishments cease in the course of the completion of the expiation and purification of each one, yet those have very great and permanent grief who are found worthy of the other fold, on account of not being along with those that have been glorified through righteousness."
Stromata,6:14 in ANF,II:504

 

[Valletta]

Yes and there’s also the fact that nowhere in the Bible does it state that sins are forgiven after death.

"For it is better to suffer for doing right, if that should be God's will, than for doing wrong. For Christ also died for sins once for all. The righteous for the unrighteous, that He might bring us to God. Being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit in which He went and preached to the spirits in prison." 1 Peter 3:17
What about these "spirits in prison?"

 

[BNR32FAN]

False, that is a fabrication against the Catholic Church. And please have the courtesy not to call the Catholic Church the "Roman Church." The doctrine of purgatory was not "concocted" in the 15th century as you claim, here is what Clement of Alexandria had to say close to 202 A.D.:

Only the Roman Church believes in purgatory that’s why I specify exactly which Catholic Church teaches it. The eastern churches reject the doctrine of purgatory and both the councils of Florence and Trent where the Roman Catechism itself specifically states that the doctrine of purgatory was formulated. Here’s the quote directly from the Catechism.

The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent.

Doctrines are not decided by an individual within the church. How many early church fathers do we have that held to heretical doctrines? That’s precisely why doctrines are decided by ecumenical council not individuals within the church.

 

[Valletta]

Only the Roman Church believes in purgatory that’s why I specify exactly which Catholic Church teaches it. The eastern churches reject the doctrine of purgatory and both the councils of Florence and Trent where the Roman Catechism itself specifically states that the doctrine of purgatory was formulated. Here’s the quote directly from the Catechism.

The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent.

Doctrines are not decided by an individual within the church. How many early church fathers do we have that held to heretical doctrines? That’s precisely why doctrines are decided by ecumenical council not individuals within the church.

Ok, I understand your point, but councils do not "concoct" Catholic Church doctrine. A lot of times issues are addressed because various heresies arise, and exactly what we know (and maybe what we don't know) is defined at Church Councils or re-emphasized at Church Councils. Just because it may not have come up at a Council for many centuries, let's take as an example One God, Three Persons, does in no way mean it is invented or concocted, nor does it mean the reason it was decided upon was for some scheme or nefarious purpose.