A question to Roman Catholics about Purgatory

BNR32FAN

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I notice that in the Roman Catholic Catechism Matthew 12:32-36 is used as evidence to support forgiveness of sin in the age to come which refers to after this world. Here’s a quote directly from the Catechism.

The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire. [Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.] As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. [St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:32-36.]"

The problem I see is that Jesus didn’t actually say that sins will be forgiven in the age to come He specifically said the opposite. Furthermore in Luke 12:10, one of the parallel verses to this passage Jesus specifically states that sin against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven period.

“And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:10‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So their premise regarding Matthew 12:32-36 being evidence of forgiveness of sin in the afterlife is actually in opposition to the parallel verse of Luke 12:10.
 

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I gather that the catholic church argues that this belief does not come from the Bible.

Here is an example of that claim about it not being in the Bible from EWTN
SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: Purgatory (Appendix II) (New Advent)

http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage_print.asp?number=348599&language=en

"I answer that, nothing is clearly stated in Scripture about the situation of Purgatory, nor is it possible to offer convincing arguments on this question. It is probable, however, and more in keeping with the statements of holy men and the revelations made to many, that there is a twofold place of Purgatory. One, according to the common law; and thus the place of Purgatory is situated below and in proximity to hell, so that it is the same fire which torments the damned in hell and cleanses the just in Purgatory; although the damned being lower in merit, are to be consigned to a lower place. Another place of Purgatory is according to dispensation: and thus sometimes, as we read, some are punished in various places, either that the living may learn, or that the dead may be succored, seeing that their punishment being made known to the living may be mitigated through the prayers of the Church. ©
... Father Echert"​
 
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pdudgeon

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I notice that in the Roman Catholic Catechism Matthew 12:32-36 is used as evidence to support forgiveness of sin in the age to come which refers to after this world. Here’s a quote directly from the Catechism.

The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire. [Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.] As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. [St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:32-36.]"

The problem I see is that Jesus didn’t actually say that sins will be forgiven in the age to come He specifically said the opposite. Furthermore in Luke 12:10, one of the parallel verses to this passage Jesus specifically states that sin against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven period.

“And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:10‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So their premise regarding Matthew 12:32-36 being evidence of forgiveness of sin in the afterlife is actually in opposition to the parallel verse of Luke 12:10.
No, not really.
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven, period. Catholics know this.
What the scriptures are talking about is that for some sins, a period of penance and purification: ( a two-step process) is necessary in order to restore the believer into a right relationship.
The reason for that is that in the commission of some sins, such damage and destruction is done by the sin itself, that there is spiritual repairs and restoration needed to the soul itself in order to restore the soul into it's original condition as created by God.
And that restoration is necessary in order to refit the soul to it's original being, so that it can enter Heaven in pure, incredible joy, and in in a state of blessed forgiveness, as being totally loved by Our Father.
God is so good and so kind to us, that He gives us His complete forgiveness, AND He restores us as well.
Think of the passage in the Bible where the wayaward younger son was restored to his own father, and his homecoming was celebrated, and you will understand.
 
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BNR32FAN

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No, not really.
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven, period. Catholics know this.
What the scriptures are talking about is that for some sins, a period of penance and purification: ( a two-step process) is necessary in order to restore the believer into a right relationship.
The reason for that is that in the commission of some sins, such damage and destruction is done by the sin itself, that there is spiritual repairs and restoration needed to the soul itself in order to restore the soul into it's original condition as created by God.
And that restoration is necessary in order to refit the soul to it's original being, so that it can enter Heaven in pure, incredible joy, and in in a state of blessed forgiveness, as being totally loved by Our Father.
God is so good and so kind to us, that He gives us His complete forgiveness, AND He restores us as well.
Think of the passage in the Bible where the wayaward younger son was restored to his own father, and his homecoming was celebrated, and you will understand.

My point was that Matthew 12:32-36 is being used in the catechism to imply that Jesus was indicating that some sins can be forgiven in this age and some can be forgiven in the next but that’s not what Jesus was saying at all. What He was saying was that it would not be forgiven period. So there is no indication from that verse that implies that some sins are forgiven in the next age or in the afterlife.

Also in the story of the Prodigal Son his Father embraced him without any punishment or payment when he returned. So I don’t see how that correlates to purgatory. Furthermore Jesus is our mediator not penance. Penance can’t pay for one single sin because the wages of sin is death not penance. That’s why Jesus had to die on the cross. Since the very beginning sin offerings were only paid by the death of an animal until Christ came and paid the ultimate perfect sacrifice that was sufficient to cover all of man’s sins brother. Ask yourself this can an unbeliever go to heaven if he punished himself for all his sins?
 
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concretecamper

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I notice that in the Roman Catholic Catechism Matthew 12:32-36 is used as evidence to support forgiveness of sin in the age to come which refers to after this world. Here’s a quote directly from the Catechism.

The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire. [Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.] As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. [St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:32-36.]"

The problem I see is that Jesus didn’t actually say that sins will be forgiven in the age to come He specifically said the opposite. Furthermore in Luke 12:10, one of the parallel verses to this passage Jesus specifically states that sin against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven period.

“And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:10‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So their premise regarding Matthew 12:32-36 being evidence of forgiveness of sin in the afterlife is actually in opposition to the parallel verse of Luke 12:10.
does the various versions of the Passion cause you sleepless nights too?
 
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pdudgeon

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My point was that Matthew 12:32-36 is being used in the catechism to imply that Jesus was indicating that some sins can be forgiven in this age and some can be forgiven in the next but that’s not what Jesus was saying at all. What He was saying was that it would not be forgiven period. So there is no indication from that verse that implies that some sins are forgiven in the next age or in the afterlife.

Also in the story of the Prodigal Son his Father embraced him without any punishment or payment when he returned. So I don’t see how that correlates to purgatory. Furthermore Jesus is our mediator not penance. Penance can’t pay for one single sin because the wages of sin is death not penance. That’s why Jesus had to die on the cross. Since the very beginning sin offerings were only paid by the death of an animal until Christ came and paid the ultimate perfect sacrifice that was sufficient to cover all of man’s sins brother. Ask yourself this can an unbeliever go to heaven if he punished himself for all his sins?
Re: the Prodigal Son, don't you think that the son, on his way back to his father, examined his heart, repented, and was sorrowful?
These are the three things that we are all asked to do when we go to confession.
And likewise, don't our good, caring priests give us good advice, and scriptures to study so that we can see where we were headed, and take steps to change our direction?
In the story of the Prodigal Son, the repentant son was given a new coat to wear ( symbolic of the new life) and a new ring to wear ( symbolic of being joined to Christ.) Did you miss the symbolism in your reading?
 
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concretecamper

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Re: the Prodigal Son, don't you think that the son, on his way back to his father, examined his heart, repented, and was sorrowful?
we are not told anything else other than he was starving while the pigs ate. His contrition may have been imperfect contrition.
In the story of the Prodigal Son, the repentant son was given a new coat to wear ( symbolic of the new life) and a new ring to wear ( symbolic of being joined to Christ.) Did you miss the symbolism in your reading?
what a loving Father we have.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Re: the Prodigal Son, don't you think that the son, on his way back to his father, examined his heart, repented, and was sorrowful?
These are the three things that we are all asked to do when we go to confession.
And likewise, don't our good, caring priests give us good advice, and scriptures to study so that we can see where we were headed, and take steps to change our direction?
In the story of the Prodigal Son, the repentant son was given a new coat to wear ( symbolic of the new life) and a new ring to wear ( symbolic of being joined to Christ.) Did you miss the symbolism in your reading?

Bless you brother but where does purgatory or penance fit into that story? That’s what I was getting at. Please forgive me if I misunderstood your position friend it is not my intention to misrepresent you.
 
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I notice that in the Roman Catholic Catechism Matthew 12:32-36 is used as evidence to support forgiveness of sin in the age to come which refers to after this world. Here’s a quote directly from the Catechism.

The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire. [Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.] As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. [St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:32-36.]"

The problem I see is that Jesus didn’t actually say that sins will be forgiven in the age to come He specifically said the opposite. Furthermore in Luke 12:10, one of the parallel verses to this passage Jesus specifically states that sin against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven period.

“And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:10‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So their premise regarding Matthew 12:32-36 being evidence of forgiveness of sin in the afterlife is actually in opposition to the parallel verse of Luke 12:10.
St. Gregory never said Jesus forgave that sin, you missed the point of this Doctor of the Church. For me to say, for example, that I won't forgive you now or in the future implies that I could forgive you now and I could forgive you in the future (but I won't). St. Gregory is letting us know that this
Biblical phrase supports the idea of purgatory understood by previous Jews and Christians as well as those at the time of Gregory.
 
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fhansen

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I notice that in the Roman Catholic Catechism Matthew 12:32-36 is used as evidence to support forgiveness of sin in the age to come which refers to after this world. Here’s a quote directly from the Catechism.

The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire. [Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.] As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. [St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:32-36.]"

The problem I see is that Jesus didn’t actually say that sins will be forgiven in the age to come He specifically said the opposite. Furthermore in Luke 12:10, one of the parallel verses to this passage Jesus specifically states that sin against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven period.

“And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:10‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So their premise regarding Matthew 12:32-36 being evidence of forgiveness of sin in the afterlife is actually in opposition to the parallel verse of Luke 12:10.
Matthew 12:32-36 only says that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit won’t be forgiven in the age to come, at any time IOW, not that others sins won’t be forgiven. But it matters little anyway. Prayers for the dead are part of the Christian legacy in the east and west from the beginning, as it was with the Jews beforehand.
 
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The gospels of Matthew and Luke do not contradict one another.

The early Church offered prayers for the dead. The doctrine of purgatory gradually developed over time. It's a state of purification after death before we enter the beatific vision. St. Paul actually prays for the dead in one of his letters.
 
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The Liturgist

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The gospels of Matthew and Luke do not contradict one another.

The early Church offered prayers for the dead. The doctrine of purgatory gradually developed over time. It's a state of purification after death before we enter the beatific vision. St. Paul actually prays for the dead in one of his letters.

I myself believe prayer for the dead is extremely important, but my view on this is based on the ancient faith before the doctrine of Purgatory was developed. I think the idea of purgatory was motivated by a desire to explain a mystery of the faith when some other explanations, for example the concept of “aerial tollhouses” found in the mystical theology of the Eastern Orthodox church, can be very frightening.
 
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I myself believe prayer for the dead is extremely important, but my view on this is based on the ancient faith before the doctrine of Purgatory was developed. I think the idea of purgatory was motivated by a desire to explain a mystery of the faith when some other explanations, for example the concept of “aerial tollhouses” found in the mystical theology of the Eastern Orthodox church, can be very frightening.
AFAIK, most Orthodox do not believe in the aerial tollhouses, they do believe in a intermediate state after death. The ROC and ROOC often taught the aerial tollhouses, see Father Rose Seraphim. They reject purgatory because it is described as "fire." That is my basic understanding. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

I am not saying purgatory is "fire," rather it's a state after death where the righteous in Christ are purified before seeing the beatific vision. To put too much emphasis on it makes things too literal. IMO.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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I notice that in the Roman Catholic Catechism Matthew 12:32-36 is used as evidence to support forgiveness of sin in the age to come which refers to after this world. Here’s a quote directly from the Catechism.

The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire. [Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.] As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence, we understand that certain offences can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. [St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:32-36.]"

The problem I see is that Jesus didn’t actually say that sins will be forgiven in the age to come He specifically said the opposite. Furthermore, in Luke 12:10, one of the parallel verses to this passage Jesus specifically states that sin against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven period.

“And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:10‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So their premise regarding Matthew 12:32-36 being evidence of forgiveness of sin in the afterlife is actually in opposition to the parallel verse of Luke 12:10.
The reasoning in this post is faulty because it ignores what the passage explicitly states, namely that some sins will not be forgiven in this age nor in the age to come. Catholics teach that sins can be forgiven in this age. Protestants and Orthodox Christians also teach that sins can be forgiven in this age. This being so the passage does appear to imply that some sins can be forgiven in the age to come.
Matthew 12:32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. 33 "Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad, for the tree is known by its fruit. 34 You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 The good person out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure brings forth evil. 36 I tell you, on the day of judgement people will give account for every careless word they speak, 37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
 
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The reasoning in this post is faulty because it ignores what the passage explicitly states, namely that some sins will not be forgiven in this age nor in the age to come.

No that’s not what He said at all. He specifically said that EVERY SIN can be forgiven except sin against the Holy Spirit which will never be forgiven. He never said that sins will be forgiven in the age or world to come.

Start with the beginning of that message in verse 31


““Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭12:31‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Matthew 12:32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
No that’s not what He said at all. He specifically said that EVERY SIN can be forgiven except sin against the Holy Spirit which will never be forgiven. He never said that sins will be forgiven in the age or world to come.

Start with the beginning of that message in verse 31


““Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭12:31‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
Verse 31 says nothing about "the age to come" and isn't the age to come the main topic under discussion here? A discussion about purgatory?

Have you checked what Catholics teach about purgatory? Maybe starting with a definition of the word?

Purgatory (Lat., purgare, to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God‘s grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.​
 
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concretecamper

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The reasoning in this post is faulty because it ignores what the passage explicitly states, namely that some sins will not be forgiven in this age nor in the age to come. Catholics teach that sins can be forgiven in this age. Protestants and Orthodox Christians also teach that sins can be forgiven in this age. This being so the passage does appear to imply that some sins can be forgiven in the age to come.
Matthew 12:32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. 33 "Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad, for the tree is known by its fruit. 34 You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 The good person out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure brings forth evil. 36 I tell you, on the day of judgement people will give account for every careless word they speak, 37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
I've read commentary on this passage and the consensus is that Jesus is speaking about those who reject the Trinity will not be forgiven in the next age
 
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Verse 31 says nothing about "the age to come" and isn't the age to come the main topic under discussion here? A discussion about purgatory?

That’s the whole point, Jesus wasn’t saying that sins will be forgiven in the age to come. He was saying that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven not in this age or the age to come. He never said that any sins will forgiven in the age to come. What He was saying was that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, not now, not later, not ever.

Have you checked what Catholics teach about purgatory? Maybe starting with a definition of the word?

I directly quoted the Catechism in the OP.
 
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Purgatory (Lat., purgare, to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God‘s grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.

Where does the Bible say that we can pay for sins thru suffering? That’s the problem with purgatory it’s claiming that we pay for our sins instead of Christ. Christ already paid the price in full. The only one requiring any payment is the Roman Church. A person dies the Roman church tells their family they are suffering in purgatory but if and only if the family will pay the church money then the priests will pray for that person and they will be allowed to enter Heaven. So it’s not God who’s requiring a payment here it’s the Roman Church who concocted this doctrine in the 15th century when the solicitations of indulgences were so bad it led to the Reformation. Purgatory is nothing more than another means of soliciting indulgences.
 
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