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A Question Rgarding Embedded Age

Tellastory

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I dare say I have had more experience with radiocarbon dating than anyone at that site, and especially the person who wrote that article. Yeah! A lot more.

How about this article?

ERRORS ARE FEARED IN CARBON DATING - NYTimes.com

Since the rate of depletion has been accurately determined (half of any given amount of carbon 14 decays in 5,730 years), scientists can calculate the time elapsed since something died from its residual carbon 14.

Dating Subject to Error

But scientists have long recognized that carbon dating is subject to error because of a variety of factors, including contamination by outside sources of carbon. Therefore they have sought ways to calibrate and correct the carbon dating method. The best gauge they have found is dendrochronology: the measurement of age by tree rings.

Accurate tree ring records of age are available for a period extending 9,000 years into the past. But the tree ring record goes no further, so scientists have sought other indicators of age against which carbon dates can be compared. One such indicator is the uranium-thorium dating method used by the Lamont-Doherty group.

So like.. they are saying that carbon 14 is unreliable and have to resort to other dating methods to confirm. That is not saying they have improved on carbon 14 dating methods.

Outside of the tree rings, I fail to see how anyone can account for the uranium-thorium dating method either. They expect everyone to accept it at face value as they expected people to accept the carbon 14 dating method.

From this link:

Better bone dates reveal bad news for Neanderthals : Nature News

But carbon-14's half-life is 5,730 years. So any sample older than about 30,000 years will have only 3% of its original carbon-14. For such samples, even tiny amounts of contamination can yield wildly inaccurate results.

Yeah... I would be doubting even the 30,000 year old results as well.
 
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RickG

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Tellastory

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No one would date a living mollusk other than a creationist sending it to a radiocarbon lab misrepresenting what they have sent. This misrepresentation ignores the marine reservoir effect which would account for the 10,000 year date.

What is fallible is your lack of knowledge of radiocarbon dating methods.

Citing my lack of knowledge is not a way to refute something, brother.

And I did recollected wrong. I apologize.

The living mollusks was carbon dated 2,300 years old dead.

Reference from Kofahl, Robert E., Handy Dandy Evolution Refuter, Beta Books, San Diego, 1977, p 119 citing several scientific journals.

So not a creationist did the testing; but did dig it out of scientific journals.

Other errors are:

Mortar from am English castle less than 800 years old - tested at 7,370 years old.

Seal skins ( fresh ) dated at 1,300 years old.

Anyway, if you wish to just deflect again by false accusations without actually sharing anything in rebuttal, feel free to do so. I can't stop you.
 
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Tellastory

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Keep trying.

First article is by a NY Times journalist who is parroting a creationist baseless claim.

I'll quote you.

Choosing what one likes and ignoring the rest is an exercise of conformation bias. In the scientific community it is called intellectual dishonesty.

The NY Times article did not mention any creationist and the media has been favouring the evolution theory.

Second article from the Journal Nature, does not discredit radiocarbon dating in the least. It merely reports updated results giving more accurate results.

Not by radio carbon dating method. So I fail to see how reliable it is when they resort to other tests to confirm.

And sure as shooting, they will ignore that which runs contrary to their report.
 
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RickG

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Citing my lack of knowledge is not a way to refute something, brother.

Nevertheless, everything you have presented thus far demonstrates a lack of knowledge of any of the radiocarbon dating methods and techniques. Furthermore, you are pulling these from non science sites.

And I did recollected wrong. I apologize.

The living mollusks was carbon dated 2,300 years old dead.

Again, no one but a creationist is going to date a living mollusk.

Reference from Kofahl, Robert E., Handy Dandy Evolution Refuter, Beta Books, San Diego, 1977, p 119 citing several scientific journals.

How about the source where you got that source? Remember the Nature Journal did not discredit carbon dating. Creationist articles are well known for giving citation to legitimate sources that do not support what they are claimed to support.

So not a creationist did the testing; but did dig it out of scientific journals.

Again, cite the specific article and let's review it. You and I both know you didn't source the specific cited article yourself, rather from a creationist source.

Other errors are:

Mortar from am English castle less than 800 years old - tested at 7,370 years old.

Seal skins ( fresh ) dated at 1,300 years old.

Anyway, if you wish to just deflect again by false accusations without actually sharing anything in rebuttal, feel free to do so. I can't stop you.

Errors do occur and the only way you know about them is because they were discovered and corrected by legitimate practicing scientists. What you need to do is ask why your sources take these corrections out of context and deliberately misrepresent them.

Again, provide the "original" articles stating these wrong dates and let's discuss them. I could easily go to sites like talkorigins or Panda's Thumb and find specific rebuttals to each of those claims by other scientists and parrot them, but since I have over 25 years experience as a research chemist with a masters in Earth Science, I can do my own rebutting. Give original sources. :thumbsup:
 
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Kylie

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This site lists several problems with radiocarbon dating.

Happy reading. :)

Stop avoiding the question. You're perfectly happy to believe the dating techniques when they tell you that a rock is a few billion years old.

And anyway, carbon dating is only used with ORGANIC remains, and young ones at that. It would never be used to date a fossil.

Oh, and as for the alleged mistakes in carbon dating, have a look at this site: An Index to Creationist Claims Particularly, section CD.

Or do you really think a creationist site is a good place to get science?
 
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Kylie

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Same reason that a living mollusk has been carbon dated by the C-14 method as 10,000 years old dead. Fallible devices run by fallible men.

Got a source for this specific incident?

Nonetheless, similar things have happened.

Living snails were once dated to be 2,300 years old and also 27,000 years old. However, THIS page explains where the error comes from.

A living seal was dated to be 1,300 years old, but again this was an error, as explained HERE.

Please note that scientists are able to correct for any environmentally caused inaccuracies, and we understand the mechanism that causes the inaccuracies.

So please learn about it and do some research before you just dismiss it, okay?
 
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Kylie

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By the Carbon-14 dating method, a living mollusks has been dated 10,000 years old "dead".

Now you say that they have developed procedures to prevent such errors. Did they retest that living mollusk or not? If not, how can they claim that they have modified their methods to prevent faulty ratings in regards to that living mollusk? Just on their say so? See the problem?

Do you realise that carbon dating doesn't really work on living things, because it uses the decay ratio that occurs after death? The carbon is constantly being replenished during life as the life form takes in nutrients.

And there is also a margin of error. it's not a stop watch. It's like using a sundial to time a marathon. Can give you a fairly reasonable idea of how many hours and minutes, but if you want it down to the second it's not going to give the results you need.
 
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juvenissun

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AV has an idea regarding embedded age, which he uses to explain how the Earth can be billions of years old while only having existed for 6000 years. Apparently it involves age being something that can be put into an object, somehow.

Now, I have a question about how all this works.

Firstly, AV has said that the embedding of age into the universe happened in creation week.

Secondly, AV has said that fossils came AFTER creation week.

However, that means that age could not have been embedded into fossils because they came about after the process of age embedding had finished.

My question is this: if age has not been embedded into fossils (as per the two points above), why do they date to be much older than 6000 years?

You forgot one thing: the fossil we used to get the age is not the first created one. It is the same as I am not Adam even I am a human. So Adam has an embedded age, but I don't.

Logically, that should be the answer to your question.
 
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Tellastory

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Nevertheless, everything you have presented thus far demonstrates a lack of knowledge of any of the radiocarbon dating methods and techniques. Furthermore, you are pulling these from non science sites.

And so far you have yet remain uninformative in proving your point.

Again, no one but a creationist is going to date a living mollusk.

That is a statement not supported by fact and you know that as also below.

How about the source where you got that source? Remember the Nature Journal did not discredit carbon dating. Creationist articles are well known for giving citation to legitimate sources that do not support what they are claimed to support.

Well I am annoyed that it did not cite the specific journals, but at the same time you have not proven your claim by giving an example of a creationist articles being well known for giving citation to legitimate sources that do not support what they are claimed to support. That means you have to refer to an actual source to prove that it does not say that at all. My example is not your example.

Here is a science site:

Scientists Advance New Method of Radiocarbon Dating | Popular Archaeology - exploring the past

Radiocarbon is continuously produced in the upper atmosphere. These roughly constant levels of radiocarbon from the atmosphere are then incorporated into all living organisms. Once the organisms die, the radioactive isotope decays at a known rate, so by measuring the radiocarbon levels remaining in samples today scientists can work out how old things are. However, the complication in the calculation is that the initial amounts of radiocarbon in the environment, which are in turn incorporated into growing organisms, vary slightly from year to year and between different parts of the global carbon cycle.

Now you say they would not test carbon dating on living things, and yet how can one start the process of dating unless they test living mollusks in the area to date the ones that are dead or fossilized? If it is all about how much carbon 14 is absorbed in a given area, then living ones would be tested.

I do not have a degree and yet that is common sense to me.

Again, cite the specific article and let's review it. You and I both know you didn't source the specific cited article yourself, rather from a creationist source.

True. I shall alter my sharing since you believe that all creationists are liars even though you have not proven it. Kind of like my citing that the fetuses drawings are fakes as PROVEN by science and so all evolutionists are liars.

Errors do occur and the only way you know about them is because they were discovered and corrected by legitimate practicing scientists. What you need to do is ask why your sources take these corrections out of context and deliberately misrepresent them.

Oh ho. Provocative aren't we now? You just admitted they would be corrected only if they were discovered. See how you just misrepresented the facts?

Again, provide the "original" articles stating these wrong dates and let's discuss them. I could easily go to sites like talkorigins or Panda's Thumb and find specific rebuttals to each of those claims by other scientists and parrot them, but since I have over 25 years experience as a research chemist with a masters in Earth Science, I can do my own rebutting. Give original sources. :thumbsup:

In referring to the link of the article now in this post:

'In most cases the radiocarbon levels deduced from marine and other records have not been too far wrong. However, having a truly terrestrial record gives us better resolution and confidence in radiocarbon dating,' said Professor Ramsey. 'It also allows us to look at the differences between the atmosphere and oceans, and study the implications for our understanding of the marine environment as part of the global carbon cycle.'

They just admitted to wrong dating results. That was a science site.

So what makes up the terrestrial records? Do they carbon date living things like living leafs in the area in how much carbon 14 they absorb in order to ascertain the rate of decay from the fossilized leafs?

You claim you are involved and are experienced in this area, but I am not seeing that at all. No sharing of your results: no willingness to discount that you can get wrong dating results on living things by testing that yourself. And citing that only a creationist would do that is hardly a worthy rebuttal when true scientists would test that anyway.

Like for example: has it not been cited that carbon 14 has increased in later years than in the past? Now how could they determine that, hmm?
 
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AV1611VET

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You're perfectly happy to believe the dating techniques when they tell you that a rock is a few billion years old.
Wrong.

I'm happy to agree with the conclusion, not the process.
Or do you really think a creationist site is a good place to get science?
Science can take a hike.
 
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Tellastory

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Got a source for this specific incident?

And I did recollected wrong. I apologize.

The living mollusks was carbon dated 2,300 years old dead.

Reference from Kofahl, Robert E., Handy Dandy Evolution Refuter, Beta Books, San Diego, 1977, p 119 citing several scientific journals.

But according to Rick G., it doesn't count because it did not cite a specific science journal. So we are moving on.

Nonetheless, similar things have happened.

Living snails were once dated to be 2,300 years old and also 27,000 years old. However, THIS page explains where the error comes from.

I am familiar with the origin of talkorigin as the founders created that cite to refer believers to from Delphi forums back in their early days & they were caught misrepresenting what they declared as facts and they admitted it, but continued to shovel the misrepresentation to other members by which those that had corrected them had caught them and called them out on it.

Now I can be like Rick G. and just be prejudiced towards all evolutionists sites or we can talk about what they are citing. Since the links you have given provides actual quotes from these reports, let us examine them.

The source of the 2,300-year-old radiocarbon date (Keith and Anderson 1963, discussed by Strahler 1987, 156-157), has been abused and misused to discredit radiocarbon dating. The article discussed the potential errors that the presence of "dead carbon" would introduce into the dating of mollusks. For example, carbon dioxide in the water can partially come from Paleozoic limestone, which lacks carbon-14. As a result, the carbon dioxide in the water is deficient in carbon-14 relative to the atmosphere, and mollusks living in the water build shells that give apparent dates older than they really are. This is a type of "reservoir effect."

The 27,000 year old date comes from Riggs (1984, 224), who wrote:
Carbon-14 contents as low as 3.3 +/- 0.2 percent modern (apparent age, 27,000 years) measured from the shells of snails Melanoides tuberculatus living in artesian springs in southern Nevada are attributed to fixation of dissolved HCO3- with which the shells are in carbon isotope equilibrium.​
In other words, the apparent age of 27,000 years for these snail shells is another example of the reservoir effect. The springs, from which the snails came, were fed by carbonate aquifers. As this water percolated through the enclosing carbonates, it dissolved limestone and dolomite hundreds of millions of years old. The dissolution of limestone and dolomite introduced considerable quantities of "dead carbon" into the groundwater. As a result, the groundwater which fed the spring and in which the snails lived was significantly deficient in carbon-14 relative to what is found in the atmosphere. When the snails made their shells, they incorporated an excess amount of "dead carbon," relative to modern atmosphere, into their shells, which resulted in the excessively old apparent date.

Now let's consider this for a moment. A point has been raised against AV in the OP that fossils which came after the flood were dated older than the 6,000 years, right?

The above explanation shows why. If the water reservoir has that effect, then what about fossils found as buried in sentiments? Would that not explain why fossils give the results of older dates? I would say yes.

A living seal was dated to be 1,300 years old, but again this was an error, as explained HERE.

Same thing:

This claim derives from Wakefield (1971):
Radiocarbon analysis of specimens obtained from mummified seals in southern Victoria Land has yielded ages ranging from 615 to 4,600 years. However, Antarctica sea water has significantly lower carbon-14 activity than that accepted as the world standard. Therefore, radiocarbon dating of marine organisms yields apparent ages that are older than true ages, but by an unknown and possibly variable amount. Therefore, the several radiocarbon ages determined for the mummified seal carcasses cannot be accepted as correct. For example, the apparent radiocarbon age of the Lake Bonney seal known to have been dead no more than a few weeks was determined to be 615 +/- 100 years. A seal freshly killed at McMurdo had an apparent age of 1,300 years.​
This is the well-known reservoir effect that occurs also with mollusks and other animals that live in the water. It happens when "old" carbon is introduced into the water. In the above case of the seal, old carbon dioxide is present within deep ocean bottom water that has been circulating through the ocean for thousands of years before upwelling along the Antarctic coast.

Now "if" there was a world wide flood, and impact craters were not millions of years apart but happened at the time of the flood, causing the fountains of the deep to rise up, and the impact craters on the moon happened at the time of the flood which sets the moon on its course in moving slowly away from the earth, and since the moon controls the oceans tide, there would be a "swelling" of the ocean, the mist that watered the whole earth would condense from the pulling away of the moon into the upper atmosphere where it would rain for the first time on the earth, and with super volcanoes as well as regular volcanoes erupts and earthquakes forms as a result from impact craters, think science can ascertain the correct age of the earth by all of that debris in the atmosphere and the swelling of the ocean waters?

Please note that scientists are able to correct for any environmentally caused inaccuracies, and we understand the mechanism that causes the inaccuracies.

So please learn about it and do some research before you just dismiss it, okay?

I just don't believe they are accounting for everything just as they fail to realize by their scientific findings why fossils are older than 6,000 years.

Thank you for providing those links. Even though the site started out being disreputable, it does appear they have cleaned up their act, however, in those reports, it goes to answer the OP as to why the fossils are older than 6,000 years.
 
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Tellastory

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Wrong.

I'm happy to agree with the conclusion, not the process.

Science can take a hike.

As per post #53, it does explain why the fossils are older than 6,000 years and thus why they are wrong dating results. They had scientific findings that explains why results have older dating errors, but fail to see how that proves why the fossils are older than 6,000 years.

So kind of like... two ships passing each other in the night for evolutionists' point of view.

It does make one wonder the futility of engaging on thier side of the discussion by delving into science when clearly the Bible validifies the world wide flood as Peter gives a prophetic warning of what is coming.

2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Believers in Jesus Christ really need to stop taking men's words in science above God's words when they are passing each other in the night like that.

1 Timothy 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: 21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.
 
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AV1611VET

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Believers in Jesus Christ really need to stop taking men's words in science above God's words when they are passing each other in the night like that.
Couldn't have said it better, myself. :thumbsup:
 
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RickG

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Couldn't have said it better, myself. :thumbsup:

Scientific knowledge is completely independent. Science does not address God. Perhaps what needs to be addressed more are the examples previously posted deliberate misrepresentations of how radiocarbon dating works. In other words, why do one have to deliberately misrepresent science in order to support their beliefs?
 
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RickG

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Ask Haeckel.

Not intended as a deliberate misrepresentation, and corrected. Again I ask, why the deliberate misrepresentations? And why are they not removed when they are shown to be misrepresentations.? Science corrects errors and points out misconduct of other scientists. Creation Science does not.
 
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AV1611VET

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Again I ask, why the deliberate misrepresentations?
And again, I'll make this clear.

God does things decently and in order.

If that's deception to you, then I submit you have a real problem with decency and order.

In fact, you need a universe that can't be explained totally, or your precisous science will stagnate.

That's why discoveries make you guys tingle inside, and discoveries that pwn previous paradigms ... like Pluto was pwned ... make you guys salivate.

Science is like an iron.

Without wrinkes to iron out, an iron is ... well ... a fancy paperweight.

So you guys need a universe full of wrinkles, so you can iron it all out.
 
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