A question regarding EO view on the Fall of Adam and Eve

[Hedvig]

Hello, this is my first post on Christian Forums, so forgive me for any faux pas. I have a question that I would like an East Orthodox perspective on.

I have been listening to Search the Scriptures through the Genesis episodes on AFR and I was left with an unanswered question.

What would have occured to the human race had Adam and Eve not disobeyed? Would it endlessly consist of only two people? Would people have been born to live in a sinless world? If so, would there even be any trials and growth?

In a way I supposed this is pure speculation but I believe it helps in understanding the nature of the Fall and our purpose here on Earth. I come from a tradition that teaches that without the Fall there would be no other humans than Adam and Eve, so really we ought to be grateful for it, and I know that East Orthodoxy considers that view to be heretical.

Thank you for helping me to understand.

 

[friend of]

What would have occured to the human race had Adam and Eve not disobeyed?

I believe it was inevitable and only a matter of time until they broke that one law.

 

[prodromos]

I believe it was inevitable and only a matter of time until they broke that one law.

Please be aware that this question was posted in the Eastern Orthodox forum.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

It's perhaps helpful to ask the question, will our bodies in the resurrection be able to fall away again? That is, once we are risen to glory, is it possible to lose that glory? By all accounts it would appear that is not the case. If then we can see a difference in the resurrection body versus the unfallen bodies of Adam and Eve then we can see one was greater than the other. The only thing they have in common is that they were/will not be tainted with sin.

That's just my own thoughts on the issue. Were Adam and Eve not to fall they would not have been prevented from developing, but we can't really say how or what that would have entailed.

 

[St_Worm2]

I come from a tradition that teaches that without the Fall there would be no other humans than Adam and Eve, so really we ought to be grateful for it...

Hello Hedvig, and welcome to CF I'm not EO, but I'd like to ask you this question, what does the Fall have to do with our being able to be fruitful and multiply? (it was, after all, a commandment that was given to us by God before the Fall happened .. Genesis 1:28)

This is what Mormons teach/believe, is it not? (though I don't know why they do)

Thanks!

--David
p.s. - to our EO members, if my asking the above question was completely out-of-bounds for this board, please let me know and I'll remove it immediately. Thanks again!!

 

[ArmyMatt]

Adam and Eve would have produced children in an unfallen way (virginally, however that works) since the command to be fruitful and multiply came before the Fall.

and then the Son would have become Incarnate.

 

[prodromos]

The incarnation of Christ was always the plan, regardless of whether Adam and Eve had fallen.

 

[St_Worm2]

Adam and Eve would have produced children in an unfallen way (virginally, however that works) since the command to be fruitful and multiply came before the Fall.

and then the Son would have become Incarnate.

Hello ArmyMatt, I do not mean to be indelicate in any way by this question, but what do you mean by "producing children in an unfallen way/virginally"?

Thanks!

--David

 

[St_Worm2]

The incarnation of Christ was always the plan, regardless of whether Adam and Eve had fallen.

Hello Prodromos, if our first parents had not sinned, what need would they, or any of us, their progeny, have for a Savior, since sin and death would have never entered into our realm?

Thanks!

--David

 

[ArmyMatt]

Hello ArmyMatt, I do not mean to be indelicate in any way by this question, but what do you mean by "producing children in an unfallen way/virginally"?

Thanks!

--David

like Mary did

 

[St_Worm2]

like Mary did

That's interesting. Does the EOC teach that sex of any kind, including marital sex, is sinful somehow?

Thanks again

--David

 

[prodromos]

Hello Prodromos, if our first parents had not sinned, what need would they, or any of us, their progeny, have for a Savior, since sin and death would have never entered into our realm?

Thanks!

--David

It was always God's plan for us to be in communion with Him. Jesus death and resurrection was necessary to free us from death but if Adam had not sinned we would not have required salvation from death.

 

[prodromos]

That's interesting. Does the EOC teach that sex of any kind, including marital sex, is sinful somehow?

Sex of any kind? That’s a bit too open ended to be able to give a reasonable answer.
Marital sex is the only acceptable form and no, it is not sinful per se, but it is very easy for our disordered passions to mess that up.

 

[St_Worm2]

It was always God's plan for us to be in communion with Him. Jesus death and resurrection was necessary to free us from death but if Adam had not sinned we would not have required salvation from death.

Hello again @prodromos, according to St. Paul, death is the ~result~ of sin, so if no one sins, then no one dies, yes? What am I missing?

Romans 5
12 Through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned.​

Thanks

--David

 

[Hedvig]

Fr Matt, could you point me to any resources that would expound on your answer?


St_Worm, yes, you caught me, that is what the Mormons believe. They believe the Fall brought both death and the ability to procreate, because before it Adam and Eve were innocent like little children. In fact, it is to be celebrated, because without it we wouldn't exist.

That is my background for asking the question. I am trying to thoroughly understand the Orthodox view. I am looking for a new church and the theology of Orthodoxy seems right to me, so far, but I have only scratched the surface. There is much that is beautiful in Mormon theology but there are some problems as well, that have become untenable for me.
I will be going to my first orthodox church service this weekend. I haven't been to any kind of high-liturgical service in many years so it will be an experience.

 

[truefiction1]

Hello again @prodromos, according to St. Paul, death is the ~result~ of sin, so if no one sins, then no one dies, yes? What am I missing?

Romans 5
12 Through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned.​

Thanks

--David

Certain Church fathers, I've heard it rumored, taught that God would become man in order to be able to fully commune with his bodily persons whom He created in His own image and likeness. The fall changed His becoming one of us into a "rescue mission", of sorts. Had we not fallen, we'd have not needed to be rescued from the fall. He was going to come, regardless, but under different/better circumstances.

 

[truefiction1]

Some fathers (perhaps only one or two, I don't know) may have put forth the idea that human procreation, absent the fall, would have been by some sort of non-sexual means. However, It's also possible that since humankind was originally created male and female and having material bodies, that there would have indeed been physical sexual union between husband and wife. Sexual union, however, would not have involved the compulsory drive of sexual desire or been tainted with fleshly lust in any way, but would have been an entirely pure and sinless intercourse done in accordance with the will of God, not the fallen will of sinful men and women. Fallen nature creates disordered desires for sensual pleasure. Man did not have these except on account of the fall. So it's not sexual reproduction itself that is sinful, but only the sinful motivations of sinful men and women that are sinful. We were not always brute beasts in heat, so to speak. There was a time before the fall when a man and woman could have intercourse free of sinful desire. We, for the most part, don't have the experience to know that sinless state of sexual being.

In the life of the world to come, it seems that neither Christ nor His Orthodox Church acknowledges any further procreation of any kind by men and women: the age for that having come to a permanent close, with the number of the elect having become completely fulfilled as established from the beginning. Sexuality won't exist in the Kingdom of God, not because it is necessarily a sinful thing, but because in that Eternal age their will be no appropriate place for it.

 

[truefiction1]

Fr Matt, could you point me to any resources that would expound on your answer?


St_Worm, yes, you caught me, that is what the Mormons believe. They believe the Fall brought both death and the ability to procreate, because before it Adam and Eve were innocent like little children. In fact, it is to be celebrated, because without it we wouldn't exist.

That is my background for asking the question. I am trying to thoroughly understand the Orthodox view. I am looking for a new church and the theology of Orthodoxy seems right to me, so far, but I have only scratched the surface. There is much that is beautiful in Mormon theology but there are some problems as well, that have become untenable for me.
I will be going to my first orthodox church service this weekend. I haven't been to any kind of high-liturgical service in many years so it will be an experience.

The Orthodox Church considers Holy Matrimony, the formally recognized sacred union of a believing man and woman in the Church, to be a union that is Eternal. This may sound very much similar to Mormon teaching about marriage. But the Orthodox see the Eternal union of husband and wife in Heaven differently than Mormons envision it. We know there will be no sexuality or procreation in that Eternal state of being. The union will be special in a heavenly ontological way, and highly unique to say the least. But this blessed state exists only between those united in an unbroken matrimony (no divorces - no second or third marriages or any other such things).

Have you ever noticed, if you know any such married couples, that after they've been married for most of their lives they have an uncanny, inexplicable resemblance to one another? I have, and I've even heard such remarks spoken about me and my own wife. In a mysterious way, understood best by God, the Creator of matrimony, the two really do become one flesh indeed. This is a great mystery and it is marvelous. How could such a "oneness" even be considered by us to be dissolved by death? To the Orthodox such a notion is heretical. Yet it's taught vehemently in Western Christian traditions ("til death do us part"). I find it ironic that while Roman Catholics, for example, consider marital unions to be temporary earthly contracts dissolved upon the death of one of the married couple, that I nevertheless find Catholic women talking about their marriages in "forever" terms. I feel gladdened that their own matrimonial common sense is too strong to be overcome by the rationalistic theological constructs of their church's magisterium.

 

[ArmyMatt]

That's interesting. Does the EOC teach that sex of any kind, including marital sex, is sinful somehow?

Thanks again

--David

no, but sex as we know it is because we are fallen.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Fr Matt, could you point me to any resources that would expound on your answer?

anything that deals with Christ's birth and what that means.

plus the Bible (not to be a smart aleck, but it's in there)