A Question on Adventism

[wes2010]

Hello, my name is Wes. I, presently, am not affiliated with any denomination, but consider myself a conservative Christian. I came upon your site and I would like to ask for your advice. I believe that the Progressive movement in the SDA church is the only rational way for Adventists to go. I believe all of you are true Christians but the influence of Ellen White must be abolished. I am married to a woman who was brought up in a Fundamental SDA Church. She no longer is a participant, but her Mother is a devout SDA. She treats my wife (her daughter) like an outsider and seems to feel like life is glum, morose, and painful. We are trying to make peace with my wife's mother, but there always appears to be some obstacle that we can't overcome. We have twin three year old boys that are being infused into her life, but I have let it be known that they are not going to be members of her church. However, my wife and I have allowed the twins to go to church with her several times because this is when she spends time with them. My question to you is should we allow this? If so, what would be an appropriate age to permanently remove them from this Church? Do the members of fundamental SDA churches attempt to indoctrinate young children? Please, any advice would be greatly appreciated. God Bless.

 

[VictorC]

Hello, my name is Wes. I, presently, am not affiliated with any denomination, but consider myself a conservative Christian. I came upon your site and I would like to ask for your advice. I believe that the Progressive movement in the SDA church is the only rational way for Adventists to go. I believe all of you are true Christians but the influence of Ellen White must be abolished. I am married to a woman who was brought up in a Fundamental SDA Church. She no longer is a participant, but her Mother is a devout SDA. She treats my wife (her daughter) like an outsider and seems to feel like life is glum, morose, and painful. We are trying to make peace with my wife's mother, but there always appears to be some obstacle that we can't overcome. We have twin three year old boys that are being infused into her life, but I have let it be known that they are not going to be members of her church. However, my wife and I have allowed the twins to go to church with her several times because this is when she spends time with them. My question to you is should we allow this? If so, what would be an appropriate age to permanently remove them from this Church? Do the members of fundamental SDA churches attempt to indoctrinate young children? Please, any advice would be greatly appreciated. God Bless.

I have read more testimonies like yours than I can count, Wes.

This is where the "remnant" mentality divides families, when it should be aspiring to the unity we have in the one faith entrusted to us. You pointed out yourself that Ellen White's influence needs to be abolished, and I can't help but agree with you. Unfortunately, her influence is what makes Adventism distinctive, and that's a quality that most consider more important than growing in the faith.

I don't feel qualified to advise you on what you should or should not do in the relationship between your children and your mother in law, but my personal gut feeling is that you're engaged in a spiritual battle that children shouldn't be made a part of. The decisions your wife and you come to agree on are paramount and not subject to your mother-in-law, who has already estranged your wife to some degree. That estrangement is symptomatic of a larger problem, and I don't think your children should be shuffled between two sources of perceived authority who have no unity.

That's my thoughts. I'm not an Adventist at all, but speak as someone who has encountered Adventists in person and has spent the time to investigate Adventism. Your mother-in-law sounds to me like someone who embodies the typical vein of thought Adventism promotes, and the root of the problems you're faced with are deeply embedded in theological error on the part of Adventism. I think discourse between you two and your in-laws is to be encouraged, but I am nervous whenever I see a situation where children are made pawns. At some point in time, a child's natural tendency to rebel against contradictions seen between authority figures could cause damage greater than the tortured relationship you have with your mother-in-law. A decision of which relationship is more important to you is going to be forced, and often times making that decision at the earliest juncture possible avoids huge problems in the long run.

It is natural for any group that promotes anything distinctive to indoctrinate children introduced to their influence before they can question the material given to them. Remove your children from anything you feel you cannot endorse.

 

[BigRedBus]

Welcome Aboard, Wes!

I am not in the same situation as you. I came into the SDA Church as an adult, and so can see things that are far less obvious to someone who was raised there. This also enables me to think in a way that others in the church do not give themselves permission to do.

I can certainly see how obstacles could come about in your dealings with your mother in law -- hardline SDAs are practiced at manufacturing deadlocks where there actually don't need to be any. The general way it works is, "what you can do is something they won't accept, and what they want is something you can't do". There is a cultural aversion to compromise within some pockets of the church, but it's certainly not universal – even within individual churches.

Have you been to this church and "felt the vibe" for yourself? That would give you a sense of what type of place it is, who's there, and if it's somewhere you are comfortable letting your children go. Also, why not take your children along, stay with them, and see how they react to the place?

Your children will doubtless talk to you about their experience once they get back home and you will be able to hear what they have learnt. You can then judge if it was a healthy experience. If they come back and tell you that they learned things like “Catholics are our enemy and they corrupted the Bible”, well you might not like that and what you do then is up to you.

Three important lessons your children will eventually need to learn are
1. how to peacefully coexist with people whose beliefs are different from theirs, and
2. that they ought not to unquestioningly believe everything they hear in church, that they will only tend to get a view from one perspective.
3. we sometimes have to compromise to keep the peace.
Involvement with a different denomination is a way to get them started on this learning curve. You might think they are too young to comprehend these concepts now, but who knows? Be honest with them about the deal and they might surprise you.

 

[k4c]

Hello, my name is Wes. I, presently, am not affiliated with any denomination, but consider myself a conservative Christian. I came upon your site and I would like to ask for your advice. I believe that the Progressive movement in the SDA church is the only rational way for Adventists to go. I believe all of you are true Christians but the influence of Ellen White must be abolished. I am married to a woman who was brought up in a Fundamental SDA Church. She no longer is a participant, but her Mother is a devout SDA. She treats my wife (her daughter) like an outsider and seems to feel like life is glum, morose, and painful. We are trying to make peace with my wife's mother, but there always appears to be some obstacle that we can't overcome. We have twin three year old boys that are being infused into her life, but I have let it be known that they are not going to be members of her church. However, my wife and I have allowed the twins to go to church with her several times because this is when she spends time with them. My question to you is should we allow this? If so, what would be an appropriate age to permanently remove them from this Church? Do the members of fundamental SDA churches attempt to indoctrinate young children? Please, any advice would be greatly appreciated. God Bless.

Hi Wes,

As in all denominations you have the extreem and the nonextreem. I have found that under the undrella of Adventisim there is a wide range of beliefs and standards. Some will be very strict and some will be very liberal. But this is not something unique to the SDA. I once attended a Calvary Chapel church where woman were not allowed to wear pants, the memebers were not allowed to drink fermented wine. I have found this same standard in some Baptist churches and even some nondeniminational churches.

I became a SDA several years ago through my personal study of the Scriptures. The SDA have the most truth of any denomination I know, even with all its baggage. Many of the things EGW said had to do with what was going in her day. But even in that, I have the same struggle you have with many of the things EGW has said but I don't let that stop me from serving through the SDA because this is how God tells us to receive a new testament prophet.

1 Thessalonians 5:20-21 Do not despise the gift of prophecy with contempt; but test everything that is said to be sure it is true, and if it is, then accept it.

We are told to test everything and keep what it is good and if we find that it may not be good just keep it as information only.

God tells us this because we don't have all knowledge and our prophecy is imperfect. Even our interpretation of accurate prophecies may be wrong.

1 Corinthians 13:9 For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect;

EGW held to this same position so whoever exsalts her is doing it against her will.

Maybe you could find an SDA church that you and your family can be comfortable with, like I did.

May God bless you in your search.

 

[StormyOne]

Wes, yes indoctrination begins early.... so if you want to avoid it, spending time with relatives is fine, but you may want to monitor closely what they are being exposed to in sabbath school.... I took my kids out of their sabbath school classes when a well meaning teacher thought the kids needed to know about being persecuted, hunted and killed for believing in "the sabbath."

 

[Joe67]

Wes,

Are you acquainted with the history in the Bible concerning Abraham and his children, including the history of the 12 tribes.

These are all dysfunctional people by the professed standards of the present ruling groups of today.

But the lesson is clear, as it was in the time of Jesus, "they say but do not do, therefore do all that they say from the standpoint of Moses, but don't follow their practices."

Yet this is true of every church group, from the least house church to the greatest church denomination; they profess a standard that they do not perform.

This state of things is true of all organizations. So we continue to live in a world of imperfect human beings and one of the imperfections is to profess and claim a performance that is obvious to those around us that we are not performing as we claim.

First, consider your own profession to your family, your employer, your customer. Do you claim more than you are doing? This is the problem that is common to all members of families, churches, civic organizations,
humanitarian ministries and business operations.

Like a remote control laser light, there has to be a big beam in our own eye to be able to see the speck in the other eye. Let us discover our own shortcomings and then we will see clearly how to deal our neighbor.

Joe

 

[VictorC]

I became a SDA several years ago through my personal study of the Scriptures. The SDA have the most truth of any denomination I know, even with all its baggage. Many of the things EGW said had to do with what was going in her day. But even in that, I have the same struggle you have with many of the things EGW has said but I don't let that stop me from serving through the SDA because this is how God tells us to receive a new testament prophet.

k4c, did you overlook this statement by Wes?

I believe all of you are true Christians but the influence of Ellen White must be abolished.

Wes has already concluded that Ellen White isn't a new testament prophet. Since about 2/3 of the 28 SDA Fundamental Beliefs contain language that comes from Ellen White and can't be supported by Scripture alone, making a claim that Adventism has more truth than another denomination is already suspect at best. There are two major areas where Adventism departs from Biblical Christianity:

• Adventism apologizes for an event in 1844 that never took place, and even William Miller rejected Adventism's spin on the model he introduced, and concluded an error when 1844 didn't herald the second advent. As Ellen White wrote in 1884, "The scripture which above all others had been both the foundation and central pillar of the Advent faith was the declaration, "Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed"" {4SP 258.1}. The apology for this non-event was first the Shut Door doctrine, later replaced by the Investigative Judgment. In the current model of Adventism's apology for 1844, Christ's atonement is not considered complete and sufficient, and SDA Fundamental belief #24 states "In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry". Hebrews 10:10 and Romans 5:11 state that atonement is a finished offering never to be added to. The apology for 1844 permeates Adventist theology to modify the core fundamentals of the Gospel in a destructive manner.
• Adventism apologizes for the sabbath ordained in the first covenant mediated in the hands of Moses, and never acknowledges our redemption from that first covenant. As Ellen White wrote, "It means eternal salvation to keep the Sabbath holy unto the Lord" in {6T 356.4}. This is a classic soteriology based on works, a departure from the Biblical Gospel that affirms "God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all" in Romans 11:32. In order to support this thesis concerning the sabbath, an origin for the sabbath in contradiction to Scripture is insisted upon, and the temporal nature of the first covenant (ten commandments) is disregarded. The message contained in the Biblical Gospel of Christ's redemption and adoption as His purchased possession is missing in Adventism.

Making a claim that the SDA church has the most truth of any denomination is a claim that isn't going to be accepted by someone who has compared Ellen White with the Bible. I agree with the conclusion that Wes has stated.

 

[wes2010]

Thank you VictorC. May I also throw in the fact that virtually nothing she predicted actually came true. Also the fact that up to 80% of her "original works" were plagiarized; a claim that can be substantiated by a quick internet search. Her own husband claimed she was fraudulent. Critics contend that the "real embarrissing" portion of her works are locked up in her estate not to be released to the public. Personally, I like to approach things from a logical and rational perspective. I ask the readers this: "Would God really anoint a very small "remnant" to receive all of his blessings, but turn his back on other Christians who love and worship him faithfully?" Common sense would tell you "No" immediately. k4C I respect your beliefs. I, personally believe Ms. White was a well intentioned lady who was nothing more than a "mere mortal." I think she sustanined brain trauma when she was hit in the head with a rock as a child. When she awoke from the coma three weeks later, all of a sudden she had these grand visions from "God." She could have very well believed herself to be Julius Caesar or Napoleon, etc. My main argument is I believe that the many "petty and trivial" disagreements amongst our mainstream denominations separate us from doing what we need to be doing now: Unite us! Look at our current state of affairs; we have a very sinister individual in the White House who is trying to inject us with Socialism and secular beliefs. We need to look at our history and examine where Socialism leads. You'll find the results include enstavement, atheism, starvation, and mass murder. We also have a new wave of this Christian Marxism popping up. It is an attempt to hijack legitimate Christian beliefs and debunk us. Let's put our differences aside and join together and fight these Dark Forces! Agree???

 

[VictorC]

Thank you VictorC.

You're very welcome

May I also throw in the fact that virtually nothing she predicted actually came true. Also the fact that up to 80% of her "original works" were plagiarized; a claim that can be substantiated by a quick internet search. Her own husband claimed she was fraudulent. Critics contend that the "real embarrissing" portion of her works are locked up in her estate not to be released to the public.
...
I, personally believe Ms. White was a well intentioned lady who was nothing more than a "mere mortal." I think she sustanined brain trauma when she was hit in the head with a rock as a child. When she awoke from the coma three weeks later, all of a sudden she had these grand visions from "God." She could have very well believed herself to be Julius Caesar or Napoleon, etc.

I am usually cautious to attribute motives when it isn't necessary to. I really don't care if Ellen made up the junk she did or steal it from others. There's plenty of published works available that it can be safely concluded that Ellen's claim to inspiration as a prophet is false. End of story. I refer to her authorship as 'the pen of liability', as she wrote so many things in contradiction to Scripture she shoots down her own claim to inspiration.

Let's put our differences aside and join together and fight these Dark Forces! Agree???

Let's return to the original question regarding your children and the SDA mother-in-law. Do you think your children should be part of this fight, when they haven't had the time and experience to be properly equipped to join in it?

 

[thecountrydoc]

Hi Wes,

Let me first say that the points you have raised are quite valid. You are to be complimented seeking truth. I would like to address your concerns in total but at the moment I don't have the time to do so. However I would like to share something I think the Holy Spirit led me to this morning to share with you here.

Author, Pastor, and Preacher's Kid, Richard Ofill, remembers when he was a child, being an Adventist was a lifestyle.

"We didn't smoke, didn't drnik alcohol, didn't wear jewelry, didn't go to dances, and kept Saturday as the Sabbath. In the "good old days," a person could be agood Adventist in good and regular standing and not be born again. Unfortunately that's still true today.

A true Christian is one whose heart is filled in a wonderful and mysterious way with the Holy Spirit. If and when we are able to comprehind this truth, the effect on our personal lives, our families, and subsequently on the life of the church, will be immeadiate."

The foregoing statement, in my humble opinion, puts most of this into prespective with great clarity. I'll try to come back and explain futher.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

 

[wes2010]

VictorC you are correct in steering me back to my original argument. I kind of went off on a tangent. When I began researching SDA, I was simply shocked to learn some of the things I did. With my children being involved, it just makes it much more of an emotional issue than it probably should be. Once again, let me reinforce my original statement of "I believe Adventists are true Christians." I genuinely yearn for a day, when the Ellen White issue can be put aside. Now then, back to the issue of my children; I am still caught between a rock and a hard place. I believe it is my duty as a loving husband to encourage my wife to make amends with her Mother. Being sort of an idealist, I believe that the "family bond" can overcome almost anything. Am I wrong in that assumption? I also want my Mother-in-law to be part of my children's lives. My fear is that her love and support is contingent on the fundamental beliefs within her faith. I guess I'm trying to rationalize this by allowing the children to attend the church now, because they are not at a point where their critical thinking skills are developed. In other words, my heart tells me it's not harmful now, but my brain tells me I need to put a stop to this. What do you think?

 

[wes2010]

Countrydoc, thank you for the reply. You sound like a person who is very knowledgeable in the subject. Any insight you have is appreciated!

 

[k4c]

k4c, did you overlook this statement by Wes?



Wes has already concluded that Ellen White isn't a new testament prophet. Since about 2/3 of the 28 SDA Fundamental Beliefs contain language that comes from Ellen White and can't be supported by Scripture alone, making a claim that Adventism has more truth than another denomination is already suspect at best. There are two major areas where Adventism departs from Biblical Christianity:

• Adventism apologizes for an event in 1844 that never took place, and even William Miller rejected Adventism's spin on the model he introduced, and concluded an error when 1844 didn't herald the second advent. As Ellen White wrote in 1884, "The scripture which above all others had been both the foundation and central pillar of the Advent faith was the declaration, "Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed"" {4SP 258.1}. The apology for this non-event was first the Shut Door doctrine, later replaced by the Investigative Judgment. In the current model of Adventism's apology for 1844, Christ's atonement is not considered complete and sufficient, and SDA Fundamental belief #24 states "In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry". Hebrews 10:10 and Romans 5:11 state that atonement is a finished offering never to be added to. The apology for 1844 permeates Adventist theology to modify the core fundamentals of the Gospel in a destructive manner.
• Adventism apologizes for the sabbath ordained in the first covenant mediated in the hands of Moses, and never acknowledges our redemption from that first covenant. As Ellen White wrote, "It means eternal salvation to keep the Sabbath holy unto the Lord" in {6T 356.4}. This is a classic soteriology based on works, a departure from the Biblical Gospel that affirms "God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all" in Romans 11:32. In order to support this thesis concerning the sabbath, an origin for the sabbath in contradiction to Scripture is insisted upon, and the temporal nature of the first covenant (ten commandments) is disregarded. The message contained in the Biblical Gospel of Christ's redemption and adoption as His purchased possession is missing in Adventism.

Making a claim that the SDA church has the most truth of any denomination is a claim that isn't going to be accepted by someone who has compared Ellen White with the Bible. I agree with the conclusion that Wes has stated.

You don't even believe the Bible is 100% true.

 

[k4c]

Thank you VictorC. May I also throw in the fact that virtually nothing she predicted actually came true. Also the fact that up to 80% of her "original works" were plagiarized; a claim that can be substantiated by a quick internet search. Her own husband claimed she was fraudulent. Critics contend that the "real embarrissing" portion of her works are locked up in her estate not to be released to the public. Personally, I like to approach things from a logical and rational perspective. I ask the readers this: "Would God really anoint a very small "remnant" to receive all of his blessings, but turn his back on other Christians who love and worship him faithfully?" Common sense would tell you "No" immediately. k4C I respect your beliefs. I, personally believe Ms. White was a well intentioned lady who was nothing more than a "mere mortal." I think she sustanined brain trauma when she was hit in the head with a rock as a child. When she awoke from the coma three weeks later, all of a sudden she had these grand visions from "God." She could have very well believed herself to be Julius Caesar or Napoleon, etc. My main argument is I believe that the many "petty and trivial" disagreements amongst our mainstream denominations separate us from doing what we need to be doing now: Unite us! Look at our current state of affairs; we have a very sinister individual in the White House who is trying to inject us with Socialism and secular beliefs. We need to look at our history and examine where Socialism leads. You'll find the results include enstavement, atheism, starvation, and mass murder. We also have a new wave of this Christian Marxism popping up. It is an attempt to hijack legitimate Christian beliefs and debunk us. Let's put our differences aside and join together and fight these Dark Forces! Agree???

If I were following EGW I would have a problem, but I don't. I haven't even read her writings so I couldn't tell you what's in them. What I know of them is what I hear people say whether good or bad. I study the Scriptures and if I can see in the Scriptures what the SDA teach now then I hold to that which I can see in the word with or without EGW's approval. It's pretty simple. I can tell you that my church is not your standard SDA church.

 

[VictorC]

You don't even believe the Bible is 100% true.

This is a conclusion made without any supporting evidence, has no relation to the post you answered, and hence is dismissed as an emotional retort that has no merit.

 

[VictorC]

VictorC you are correct in steering me back to my original argument. I kind of went off on a tangent. When I began researching SDA, I was simply shocked to learn some of the things I did. With my children being involved, it just makes it much more of an emotional issue than it probably should be. Once again, let me reinforce my original statement of "I believe Adventists are true Christians." I genuinely yearn for a day, when the Ellen White issue can be put aside. Now then, back to the issue of my children; I am still caught between a rock and a hard place. I believe it is my duty as a loving husband to encourage my wife to make amends with her Mother. Being sort of an idealist, I believe that the "family bond" can overcome almost anything. Am I wrong in that assumption? I also want my Mother-in-law to be part of my children's lives. My fear is that her love and support is contingent on the fundamental beliefs within her faith. I guess I'm trying to rationalize this by allowing the children to attend the church now, because they are not at a point where their critical thinking skills are developed. In other words, my heart tells me it's not harmful now, but my brain tells me I need to put a stop to this. What do you think?

I think you're doing well to toss ideas back and forth, and my only concern is that some of the pertinent points you illustrated earlier haven't struck you as important as they really are. Remember that you described a relationship whereby your mother-in-law has already estranged her daughter (your wife) to some degree. I mentioned this is a symptom of a larger problem that isn't likely to go away. Let me add to that - that problem isn't something you or your wife has caused, and it isn't in your control to rectify.

I think we all wish we could trust our hearts. I share your earnest desire to see the entire SDA church wave bye-bye to Ellen White's writings. However, 160+ years of experience to the contrary does not support the likelyhood of that happening.

Listen to your brain, I think it's screaming for the attention it deserves.

BTW, are you sharing this conversation with your wife? Please do! I think this is good ammunition for your own discussions with her, and it is important to me that you two remain unified.

We have another member of the forum who goes by the moniker ByFaithAlone. I seem to remember his background isn't very different from how you describe yours, and his experience is sure to be invaluable in this conversation. He doesn't post on the weekends, and so you will have to wait until Monday morning sometime before he has a chance to respond to your posts. I hope you and your wife can join in at that time (tune in on this same bat channel, batman!).

 

[wes2010]

Point taken VictorC. I'll do my best to bring my wife into the forum. By the way, I think I've found a friend.

 

[VictorC]

Point taken VictorC. I'll do my best to bring my wife into the forum. By the way, I think I've found a friend.

Oh, I think I found another brother in the Lord

 

[bugkiller]

You don't even believe the Bible is 100% true.

Can't you do better than character assination? Your comment has nothing to do with this thread.

bugkiller

 

[k4c]

Can't you do better than character assination? Your comment has nothing to do with this thread.

bugkiller

It has everything to do with him and the thread because of his discrediting what the SDA teach and believe. The fact that he discredits the word of God means we shouldn't use his comments to form an opinion. If you don't believe me you will have to take the time yourself to search his recent posts and you will see he does not receive the Bible as God's inspired, inerrant word.