A question on Abortion

[coffee4u]

By what logic? That destruction of life is wrong? Well we do that every day when we eat steak and chicken. Or veal and chicken nuggets. We kill innocent babies, millions of them, every day, every hour even, to fill out supermarkets.


So in order to justify your idea, the human non-sentient embryo, a grouping of cells, must have greater intrinsic value, than the life of any animal of the animal kingdom (aside from mankind).

Even though a dog can experience fear and pain and suffering if you kick it, it's life, according to pro life advocates, is intrinsically worth less than the embryo which doesn't experience any of the above.

And this position, I disagree with.

It is God who decides what defines murder, not us.

Genesis 9
9 Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. 2 The fear and dread of you will fall on all the beasts of the earth, and on all the birds in the sky, on every creature that moves along the ground, and on all the fish in the sea; they are given into your hands. 3 Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.


4 “But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it. 5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each human being, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of another human being.


6 “Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans shall their blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made mankind.

We are allowed to eat the meat of animals. However, they should be kept and killed humanly, should not be strangled or have been left with the blood in them but drained.

Acts 15:20

20 but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood.
Apart from that, there is nothing wrong in eating steak, chicken or veal because God said that we could.

 

[dms1972]

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[chilehed]

So in order to justify your idea, the human non-sentient embryo, a grouping of cells, must have greater intrinsic value, than the life of any animal of the animal kingdom (aside from mankind).

Exactly. Every human being does.

 

[Sketcher]

See post number 4 for genetics behind rape.

There's a lot that study doesn't answer.

My belief on genetics is that they influence how a person looks and acts, but the environment reacts to the person, and the person reacts further to the environment, especially in the formative years. Hence, genetic influence is far more subtle and far less determinant than many will assume.

 

[Job 33:6]

Well, 98.5% of abortions are performed for non-medical, convenience reasons.

And as Christians, we should at the very least be against the 98.5% of abortions that are performed for convenience reasons.

1. All human beings are created in the Image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value.

2. A new human being comes into existence at fertilization.

A human being doesn't come into existence at fertilization, no more does a cookie come into existence when you mix chocolate chips with dough.

When we consider that we are "created in the image of God", God does not physically create anything at conception. Nothing comes into existence. But rather, what already exists, an egg and sperm, simply comes in physical contact with one another (changes form).

 

[Job 33:6]

Exactly. Every human being does.

Why is that? Is it because an embryo has a soul?

 

[Job 33:6]

The conclusion that human life begins at sperm-egg fusion is uncontested, objective, based on the universally accepted scientific method of distinguishing different cell types from each other and on ample scientific evidence (thousands of independent, peer-reviewed publications)."

.

Saying that something begins, is not equivelant to saying that it comes into existence. The life of a cookie begins when I pull it out of the oven and make a willed personal choice to call it a cookie, but the cookie never physically came into existence from a prior non-existence. As observers, we simply start calling the baked dough a cookie to simplify discussions about the form the dough takes. In reality, the dough that makes the cookie existed before we started calling it a cookie. Nothing came into existence, but rather what already existed simply changed form. It is the observer, us, that decides to call it a cookie. But the cookie is not something that hadnt existed before we pulled it from the oven. The cookie was always around, just un-baked in a mixing bowl.

 

[Job 33:6]

What I mean is that the new, unique, living organism is a physical organism. It has mass, it is a real, living, newly created physical being. A human being to be specific. This is settled science.

All of the qualities described above are observed in every living thing on earth. New and unique cows are born every day. So why is the human embryo more special than any other life at this particular moment of conception?

Because mankind is created in the image of God? What does this even mean when nothing physically comes into existence?

God doesn't have arms or legs, so it isn't a physical concept. It must be metaphysical.

But if the intrinsic value of an embryo isn't based on something physical, then how do we establish it's value beyond mere faith?

 

[Job 33:6]

There's a lot that study doesn't answer.

My belief on genetics is that they influence how a person looks and acts, but the environment reacts to the person, and the person reacts further to the environment, especially in the formative years. Hence, genetic influence is far more subtle and far less determinant than many will assume.

I only propose that even if genetics only weighed in as a 1% influence over rapes, that is 1% too many, and should be taken into account in circumstances where the mother may die and the embryo is still non sentient without the experience of pain or suffering.

 

[dms1972]

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[Job 33:6]

I'll try to simplify it:

1. Physical matter is not created nor destroyed (comes into or exits out of existence) in the process of conception.
2. When God creates something, That creation comes into existence. It doesn't just change form from something that existed prior. When God created the heavens and the earth, God didn't just take something that pre-existed and changed its form. God created it and made it come into existence from non-existence. And this is what creation is by God and in the image of God.
3. Human beings are created by God, in His image, and come into existence, this is therefore not a physical coming into existence during God's creation of that man or woman, but rather it must be non-physical because nothing enters into existence upon conception.
4. Because nothing physically comes into existence at conception, scientists arbitrarily begin calling an embryo "human" for simplicity of discussion, when the egg meets the sperm. Much like we begin calling a cookie a cookie after it comes out of the oven (and not before it's baked). But in truth, the dough and chips and egg and sperm and all constituents that make the embryo and the cookie, predated the time we assigned them titles at conception and when the baking is finished. The cookie predated the time we began calling it a cookie.
5. So the question is, if nothing in scripture says that human life begins when a sperm meets and egg (Scripture doesn't talk about an egg meeting a sperm and a human beginning at that moment, even in Genesis, Adam is not created until after God breathes into the clay that makes him), And if there's nothing physically coming into existence during conception that scientifically identifies that moment of creation (coming into existence) in an observable way, then how does anyone know when a human life truly begins as a creation of God?

Scripture doesn't clarify on when human life is created in the birth process, science doesn't see anything coming into existence to determine when creation occurs either. So how do we reach this conclusion that a human life truly comes Into existence as a product of creation, at conception, beyond baseless claims?

 

[coffee4u]

And it's important to understand that nothing comes into existence in a physical sense.

Once we understand that nothing is physically coming into existence, We can then turn our view to a discussion of what literally happens, in which case what we observe are The combination of two sets of DNA.

But one that has to ask why the combination of this DNA is any more special than the combination of DNA in any farm animal that we eat any other day without a second thought?

Does it have a spirit? What actually gives it it's intrinsic value beyond us simply assigning it a title?

What is literally happening is that God is forming a new person in the womb.

Psalm 139:13-16
For You formed my inmost being;
You knit me together in my mother’s womb.
I praise You,for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.
Marvelous are Your works,
and I know this very well.
My frame was not hidden from You
when I was made in secret,
when I was woven together
in the depths of the earth.
Your eyes saw my unformed body;
all my days were written in Your book
and ordained for me
before one of them came to be.

Yes, the unborn have a spirit. They are a unique person while still unformed, a person that God sees. This is what gives them value. It has zero to do with science or stages of development or any other worldy thing you want to try and use.

 

[SPF]

A human being doesn't come into existence at fertilization, no more does a cookie come into existence when you mix chocolate chips with dough.

You keep saying this, yet it's not making it any more true. Can you find any embryologist, biologist, or scientist in general that agrees with you and cite some research? Because I'm pretty sure you're on an island of one right now with your belief. And I'm pretty sure that you have no education at all in this area by which anyone should be taking you seriously when you are contradicting known science.

“It is the penetration of the ovum by a sperm and the resulting mingling of nuclear material each brings to the union that constitutes the initiation of the life of a new individual.” Clark Edward and Corliss Patten’s Human Embryology, McGraw – Hill Inc., 30

“Thus a new cell is formed from the union of a male and a female gamete. [sperm and egg cells] The cell, referred to as the zygote, contains a new combination of genetic material, resulting in an individual different from either parent and from anyone else in the world.” Sally B Olds, et al., Obstetric Nursing (Menlo Park, California: Addison – Wesley publishing, 1980) P 136

“[All] organisms, however large and complex they might be as full grown, begin life as a single cell. This is true for the human being, for instance, who begins life as a fertilized ovum.”Dr. Morris Krieger “The Human Reproductive System” p 88 (1969) Sterling Pub. Co

When we consider that we are "created in the image of God", God does not physically create anything at conception. Nothing comes into existence. But rather, what already exists, an egg and sperm, simply comes in physical contact with one another (changes form).

Again, this just displays your fundamental ignorance in this subject.

I. 2) Fertilization

Now that we have looked at the formation of the mature haploid sex gametes, the next important process to consider is fertilization. O�Rahilly defines fertilization as:

"... the procession of events that begins when a spermatozoon makes contact with a secondary oocyte or its investments, and ends with the intermingling of maternal and paternal chromosomes at metaphase of the first mitotic division of the zygote. The zygote is characteristic of the last phase of fertilization and is identified by the first cleavage spindle. It is a unicellular embryo."9 (Emphasis added.)

The fusion of the sperm (with 23 chromosomes) and the oocyte (with 23 chromosomes) at fertilization results in a live human being, a single-cell human zygote, with 46 chromosomes�the number of chromosomes characteristic of an individual member of the human species. Quoting Moore:

"Zygote: This cell results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being (i.e., an embryo). The expression fertilized ovum refers to a secondary oocyte that is impregnated by a sperm; when fertilization is complete, the oocyte becomes a zygote."10 (Emphasis added.)

This new single-cell human being immediately produces specifically human proteins and enzymes11 (not carrot or frog enzymes and proteins), and genetically directs his/her own growth and development. (In fact, this genetic growth and development has been proven not to be directed by the mother.)12 Finally, this new human being; the single-cell human zygote; is biologically an individual, a living organism; an individual member of the human species. Quoting Larsen:

"... [W]e begin our description of the developing human with the formation and differentiation of the male and female sex cells or gametes, which will unite at fertilization to initiate the embryonic development of a new individual."13 (Emphasis added.)

In sum, a mature human sperm and a mature human oocyte are products of gametogenesis, each has only 23 chromosomes. They each have only half of the required number of chromosomes for a human being. They cannot singly develop further into human beings. They produce only "gamete" proteins and enzymes. They do not direct their own growth and development. And they are not individuals, i.e., members of the human species. They are only parts, each one a part of a human being. On the other hand, a human being is the immediate product of fertilization. As such he/she is a single-cell embryonic zygote, an organism with 46 chromosomes, the number required of a member of the human species. This human being immediately produces specifically human proteins and enzymes, directs his/her own further growth and development as human, and is a new, genetically unique, newly existing, live human individual.

After fertilization the single-cell human embryo doesn't become another kind of thing. It simply divides and grows bigger and bigger, developing through several stages as an embryo over an 8-week period. Several of these developmental stages of the growing embryo are given special names, e.g., a morula (about 4 days), a blastocyst (5-7 days), a bilaminar (two layer) embryo (during the second week), and a trilaminar (3-layer) embryo (during the third week).14 Dianne N. Irving, M.A., Ph.D.

All of the qualities described above are observed in every living thing on earth. New and unique cows are born every day. So why is the human embryo more special than any other life at this particular moment of conception?

Again, you seem to not understand basic Biblical teachings on the uniqueness of human beings in the creation order. Humans are a unique creation of God, alone created in His Image. Animals are not. In Genesis, God gave man dominion over animals, and the authority to kill and eat animals.

 

[aiki]

Lets say you're a man, and your wife is raped, and she has a high probability of dying if she carries on through the pregnancy and gives birth.

Who does the Bible say has total control over the length of our lives? Who does the Bible say "opens and shuts the womb"?

If an abortion could be conducted in the first few weeks of pregnancy while the baby is still in an embryo stage, where it would not experience pain, would an abortion then be potentially acceptable?

If God is the One who opens and shuts the womb, as the Bible says He is, and a woman has become pregnant through rape, what do you think is God's purpose in opening the woman's womb? Does God give children to be a curse? No, Scripture says children are a blessing from the Lord. Why, then, destroy the life God has given as a blessing?

And sometimes I wonder, what if the baby grows up, then spreads genes of that rapist that perhaps promotes rape in future progeny. What are pro life people's thoughts on these two topics?

Every one of us carry the potential for terrible evil. But for the grace of God and the constraints of a just society... If the potential for evil justifies the destruction of a human life in vitro, then we all ought to be destroyed, don't you think?

 

[Job 33:6]

You keep saying this, yet it's not making it any more true. Can you find any embryologist, biologist, or scientist in general that agrees with you and cite some research? Because I'm pretty sure you're on an island of one right now with your belief. And I'm pretty sure that you have no education at all in this area by which anyone should be taking you seriously when you are contradicting known science.

“It is the penetration of the ovum by a sperm and the resulting mingling of nuclear material each brings to the union that constitutes the initiation of the life of a new individual.” Clark Edward and Corliss Patten’s Human Embryology, McGraw – Hill Inc., 30

“Thus a new cell is formed from the union of a male and a female gamete. [sperm and egg cells] The cell, referred to as the zygote, contains a new combination of genetic material, resulting in an individual different from either parent and from anyone else in the world.” Sally B Olds, et al., Obstetric Nursing (Menlo Park, California: Addison – Wesley publishing, 1980) P 136

“[All] organisms, however large and complex they might be as full grown, begin life as a single cell. This is true for the human being, for instance, who begins life as a fertilized ovum.”Dr. Morris Krieger “The Human Reproductive System” p 88 (1969) Sterling Pub. Co

Again, this just displays your fundamental ignorance in this subject.

I. 2) Fertilization

Now that we have looked at the formation of the mature haploid sex gametes, the next important process to consider is fertilization. O�Rahilly defines fertilization as:

"... the procession of events that begins when a spermatozoon makes contact with a secondary oocyte or its investments, and ends with the intermingling of maternal and paternal chromosomes at metaphase of the first mitotic division of the zygote. The zygote is characteristic of the last phase of fertilization and is identified by the first cleavage spindle. It is a unicellular embryo."9 (Emphasis added.)

The fusion of the sperm (with 23 chromosomes) and the oocyte (with 23 chromosomes) at fertilization results in a live human being, a single-cell human zygote, with 46 chromosomes�the number of chromosomes characteristic of an individual member of the human species. Quoting Moore:

"Zygote: This cell results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being (i.e., an embryo). The expression fertilized ovum refers to a secondary oocyte that is impregnated by a sperm; when fertilization is complete, the oocyte becomes a zygote."10 (Emphasis added.)

This new single-cell human being immediately produces specifically human proteins and enzymes11 (not carrot or frog enzymes and proteins), and genetically directs his/her own growth and development. (In fact, this genetic growth and development has been proven not to be directed by the mother.)12 Finally, this new human being; the single-cell human zygote; is biologically an individual, a living organism; an individual member of the human species. Quoting Larsen:

"... [W]e begin our description of the developing human with the formation and differentiation of the male and female sex cells or gametes, which will unite at fertilization to initiate the embryonic development of a new individual."13 (Emphasis added.)

In sum, a mature human sperm and a mature human oocyte are products of gametogenesis, each has only 23 chromosomes. They each have only half of the required number of chromosomes for a human being. They cannot singly develop further into human beings. They produce only "gamete" proteins and enzymes. They do not direct their own growth and development. And they are not individuals, i.e., members of the human species. They are only parts, each one a part of a human being. On the other hand, a human being is the immediate product of fertilization. As such he/she is a single-cell embryonic zygote, an organism with 46 chromosomes, the number required of a member of the human species. This human being immediately produces specifically human proteins and enzymes, directs his/her own further growth and development as human, and is a new, genetically unique, newly existing, live human individual.

After fertilization the single-cell human embryo doesn't become another kind of thing. It simply divides and grows bigger and bigger, developing through several stages as an embryo over an 8-week period. Several of these developmental stages of the growing embryo are given special names, e.g., a morula (about 4 days), a blastocyst (5-7 days), a bilaminar (two layer) embryo (during the second week), and a trilaminar (3-layer) embryo (during the third week).14 Dianne N. Irving, M.A., Ph.D.

Again, you seem to not understand basic Biblical teachings on the uniqueness of human beings in the creation order. Humans are a unique creation of God, alone created in His Image. Animals are not. In Genesis, God gave man dominion over animals, and the authority to kill and eat animals.

"You keep saying this, yet it's not making it any more true. Can you find any embryologist, biologist, or scientist in general that agrees with you and cite some research?"

Yes, I can. Matter is not created no destroyed. It's called the law of conservation of matter, And is widely accepted in all fields of science by every scientist.

And so a human being cannot come into existence as physical matter by any humanly or man-made process such as giving birth.


"The cell, referred to as the zygote, contains a new combination of genetic material"

That is correct, a new combination of genetic material not new genetic material that has come into existence from prior non-existence.

The genetic material was not created, But rather it took on form from something that pre-existed itself.

 

[Job 33:6]

What is literally happening is that God is forming a new person in the womb.

Psalm 139:13-16
For You formed my inmost being;
You knit me together in my mother’s womb.
I praise You,for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.
Marvelous are Your works,
and I know this very well.
My frame was not hidden from You
when I was made in secret,
when I was woven together
in the depths of the earth.
Your eyes saw my unformed body;
all my days were written in Your book
and ordained for me
before one of them came to be.

Yes, the unborn have a spirit. They are a unique person while still unformed, a person that God sees. This is what gives them value. It has zero to do with science or stages of development or any other worldy thing you want to try and use.

I completely agree that it has zero to do with science or stages of development or any other worldly thing. I completely agree.

But what we see are people trying to make a case for the timing of human creation, based on science (hence the continual posts and quotes of scientists).

And to be fair, "knitting in the womb", could begin at any point of a pregnancy. It doesn't necessarily pertain to the moment that the egg contacts the sperm.

 

[SPF]

Yes, I can. Matter is not created no destroyed. It's called the law of conservation of matter, And is widely accepted in all fields of science by every scientist.

You clearly have utterly no clue what that actually means.

And so a human being cannot come into existence as physical matter by any humanly or man-made process such as giving birth.

“The life cycle of mammals begins when a sperm enters an egg.” Okada et al., A role for the elongator complex in zygotic paternal genome demethylation, NATURE 463:554 (Jan. 28, 2010)

Do you understand what the above is saying? Your life began at fertilization. You began as a one celled zygote, you grew and grew, which took about 25 years until you were fully developed. But your beginning as a human being was at fertilization.

“Fertilization is the process by which male and female haploid gametes (sperm and egg) unite to produce a genetically distinct individual.”Signorelli et al., Kinases, phosphatases and proteases during sperm capacitation, CELL TISSUE RES. 349(3):765 (Mar. 20, 2012)

Read the above quote. A sperm on its own will never be anything more than a sperm, and an egg on its own will never be anything other than an egg. But when fertilization occurs, a new, distinct individual is created. That was when you began your life, at fertilization.

“Fertilization – the fusion of gametes to produce a new organism – is the culmination of a multitude of intricately regulated cellular processes.” Marcello et al., Fertilization, ADV. EXP. BIOL. 757:321 (2013)

Read the above. It is at fertilization that a new organism is created.

“Human life begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm (spermatozoo developmentn) unites with a female gamete or oocyte (ovum) to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marked the beginning of each of us as a unique individual.” “A zygote is the beginning of a new human being (i.e., an embryo).” Keith L. Moore, The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 7th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2003. pp. 16, 2.

I really don't think this is that complicated, and the fact that you insist on rejecting known science is really just revealing your own prejudice and lack of intellectual integrity. There's nothing wrong with learning and growing in our understanding.

 

[SPF]

"The cell, referred to as the zygote, contains a new combination of genetic material"

That is correct, a new combination of genetic material not new genetic material that has come into existence from prior non-existence.

The genetic material was not created, But rather it took on form from something that pre-existed itself.

Here's what happens at fertilization:

I. 2) Fertilization

Now that we have looked at the formation of the mature haploid sex gametes, the next important process to consider is fertilization. O�Rahilly defines fertilization as:

"... the procession of events that begins when a spermatozoon makes contact with a secondary oocyte or its investments, and ends with the intermingling of maternal and paternal chromosomes at metaphase of the first mitotic division of the zygote. The zygote is characteristic of the last phase of fertilization and is identified by the first cleavage spindle. It is a unicellular embryo."9 (Emphasis added.)

The fusion of the sperm (with 23 chromosomes) and the oocyte (with 23 chromosomes) at fertilization results in a live human being, a single-cell human zygote, with 46 chromosomes�the number of chromosomes characteristic of an individual member of the human species. Quoting Moore:

"Zygote: This cell results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being (i.e., an embryo). The expression fertilized ovum refers to a secondary oocyte that is impregnated by a sperm; when fertilization is complete, the oocyte becomes a zygote."10 (Emphasis added.)

This new single-cell human being immediately produces specifically human proteins and enzymes11 (not carrot or frog enzymes and proteins), and genetically directs his/her own growth and development. (In fact, this genetic growth and development has been proven not to be directed by the mother.)12 Finally, this new human being�the single-cell human zygote�is biologically an individual, a living organism�an individual member of the human species. Quoting Larsen:

"... [W]e begin our description of the developing human with the formation and differentiation of the male and female sex cells or gametes, which will unite at fertilization to initiate the embryonic development of a new individual."13 (Emphasis added.)

In sum, a mature human sperm and a mature human oocyte are products of gametogenesis�each has only 23 chromosomes. They each have only half of the required number of chromosomes for a human being. They cannot singly develop further into human beings. They produce only "gamete" proteins and enzymes. They do not direct their own growth and development. And they are not individuals, i.e., members of the human species. They are only parts�each one a part of a human being. On the other hand, a human being is the immediate product of fertilization. As such he/she is a single-cell embryonic zygote, an organism with 46 chromosomes, the number required of a member of the human species. This human being immediately produces specifically human proteins and enzymes, directs his/her own further growth and development as human, and is a new, genetically unique, newly existing, live human individual.

After fertilization the single-cell human embryo doesn�t become another kind of thing. It simply divides and grows bigger and bigger, developing through several stages as an embryo over an 8-week period. Several of these developmental stages of the growing embryo are given special names, e.g., a morula (about 4 days), a blastocyst (5-7 days), a bilaminar (two layer) embryo (during the second week), and a trilaminar (3-layer) embryo (during the third week).14

Dianne N. Irving, M.A., Ph.D.

 

[Job 33:6]

"Your life began at fertilization."

Yes, and a cookies life begins when I pull it out of the oven, but that doesn't mean that the cookie was created and brought into existence.

When God created the heavens and the earth God didn't take pre-existing ingredients and reform them to create the heavens and the earth. God created existence from non-existence, And that's what creation is.

When a human life is created, God isn't taking pre-existing life and reforming it. God is bringing new life into existence.

When I bake cookies I'm not bringing something into existence that didn't previously exist. I'm simply changing the form from raw dough to cooked dough.

And this process of baking cookies is not creation. no more do chemists create life in a petri dish when they zap a bunch of proteins with electricity. They aren't creating life they're just reforming things they're not doing what God does they're just observing changes in what has already been created by God.

When God creates man in his image and when God creates new life, God is not changing form of old stuff into new stuff, God is creating and bringing something new into existence.

And when we look at your scientific statements, none of them are describing creation from non-existence, They are all describing the beginning of a new form of something from something that pre-existed. And that is not creation.

And so we cannot say that the scientifically observed moment of conception is equivalent to the scriptural description of a moment of creation.

 

[Brightmoon]

A fetus doesn’t have an independent life before about the 6 th month . It’s literally part of the mother at that point. After that point it has the potential for independent life ant that were Roe vs Wade drew that line . Of only to save the mother’s life or in overwhelming life threatening fetal deformities . I’m fine with that ! I’m not accepting the argument that women are just “vessels” for babies and that they should have no control over it . That’s one reason that some Christians object to birth control and accurate sex education and tell women to submit ( meaning sexually) to their husbands. That has been a Church teaching for centuries and it’s abusive of women