A question on Abortion

[Job 33:6]

So what’s the right thing to do? To ignore the Scripture verses I posted?

Should I reject what Scripture says about us being unique creations, alone in His Image?

Should I reject the Scripture that says we are free to kill and eat animals and that we are to subdue and rule over creation?

You haven’t provided and actionable alternatives or interpretations of Scripture to go by.

Would you tell us how you interpret the passages I quoted about animals?

The right thing to do is to reflect on what is right before our eyes.

Think about how many millions of pain experiencing, fear experiencing, sentient animals are destroyed, every day. Millions, far more than the number of abortions, magnitudes more.

And reflect on the fact that we, mankind, were once just like them. And further that they could even one day become like us (assuming we do not destroy their future).

In truth, when put into perspective, early abortions in which an embryo doesn't experience pain, or fear, or suffering, or awareness, really are trivial matters with respect to the true sin in and of the human condition.

I propose that those who are adamant about abortion, take the pro-life topic a step further, and look at the lives that are lost on a much grander scale.

Subduing animals, and eating them, is something that a lion does to a zebra. If it is ok to subdue them without a care, then save your breath when it comes to early term abortions.

Alternatively, if an early term abortion is truly a horrid thing, where a non sentient embryo is destroyed ( sometimes to save the life of a raped mother), then I would like to hear the pro-life movement stay logically consistent, and critique things like hunting, in which animals are killed, literally for fun.

When a hunter fires his bow and it punctures the lung of an elk, and that elk screeches in pain, as it runs in fear. As it bleeds and suffers to the moment of it's death. A trail of blood, to the collapse of it's body. As it breaths it's last breath looking at mankind, smiling with a beer and a camera, over it.

If early term abortions are so haeneous and act, then I want people to admit to the real destruction that is culturally accepted, every day, right before our eyes.

To subdue the world is one thing. But what we are doing is going far beyond subduction. What we are doing, is utter annihilation, careless, soulless, violation. We are raping the world.

 

[Job 33:6]

The right thing to do is to reflect on what is right before our eyes.

Think about how many millions of pain experiencing, fear experiencing, sentient animals are destroyed, every day. Millions, far more than the number of abortions, magnitudes more.

And reflect on the fact that we, mankind, were once just like them. And further that they could even one day become like us (assuming we do not destroy their future).

In truth, when put into perspective, early abortions in which an embryo doesn't experience pain, or fear, or suffering, or awareness, really are trivial matters with respect to the true sin in and of the human condition.

I propose that those who are adamant about abortion, take the pro-life topic a step further, and look at the lives that are lost on a much grander scale.

Subduing animals, and eating them, is something that a lion does to a zebra. If it is ok to subdue them without a care, then save your breath when it comes to early term abortions.

Alternatively, if an early term abortions is truly a horrid thing, where a non sentient embryo is destroyed, then I would like to hear the pro-life movement stay logically consistent, and critique things like hunting, in which animals are killed, literally for fun.

When a hunter fires his bow and it punctures the lung of an elk, and that elk screeches in pain, as it runs in fear. As it bleeds and suffers to the moment of it's death. A trail of blood, to a collapse of it's body. As it breaths it's last breath looking at mankind, smiling with a beer and a camera, over it.

If early term abortions are so haeneous and act, then I want people to admit to the real destruction that is culturally accepted, every day, right before our eyes.

To subdue the world is one thing. But what we are doing is going far beyond subduction. What we are doing, is utter annihilation, careless, soulless.

But where is the "pro life" movement when it comes to these other topics? Indeed, the very same "pro life" movement, often times isn't pro life at all. They are the very same ones puncturing the elks lung. The very same ones overfeeding the pig with nutrient poor human trash to get it nice and fat, the very same ones who want to expand drilling in wildlife habitats where countless wildlife animals live.

You know what I'm talking about.

"Pro-life" they said.

And with that, I'll yield the table. Thank you for the enjoyable talk, from beginning to end. You may conclude how you wish.

 

[SPF]

The right thing to do is to reflect on what is right before our eyes.

Think about how many millions of pain experiencing, fear experiencing, sentient animals are destroyed, every day. Millions, far more than the number of abortions, magnitudes more.

And reflect on the fact that we, mankind, were once just like them. And further that they could even one day become like us (assuming we do not destroy their future).

In truth, when put into perspective, early abortions in which an embryo doesn't experience pain, or fear, or suffering, or awareness, really are trivial matters with respect to the true sin in and of the human condition.

I propose that those who are adamant about abortion, take the pro-life topic a step further, and look at the lives that are lost on a much grander scale.

Subduing animals, and eating them, is something that a lion does to a zebra. If it is ok to subdue them without a care, then save your breath when it comes to early term abortions.

Alternatively, if an early term abortions is truly a horrid thing, where a non sentient embryo is destroyed, then I would like to hear the pro-life movement stay logically consistent, and critique things like hunting, in which animals are killed, literally for fun.

When a hunter fires his bow and it punctures the lung of an elk, and that elk screeches in pain, as it runs in fear. As it bleeds and suffers to the moment of it's death. A trail of blood, to a collapse of it's body. As it breaths it's last breath looking at mankind, smiling with a beer and a camera, over it.

If early term abortions are so haeneous and act, then I want people to admit to the real destruction that is culturally accepted, every day, right before our eyes.

To subdue the world is one thing. But what we are doing is going far beyond subduction. What we are doing, is utter annihilation, careless, soulless, violation. We are raping the world.

Your response offered no input on what to do with Scripture. It sounds like you’re saying we should ignore Scripture.

If this is not what you’re saying, then tell me how to properly interpret the three passages about our relationship to animals that I presented.

 

[NBB]

Am I surprised to see that those who are ardent abortion supporters, simultaneously are uncomfortable with the idea of evolution?

No of course not, I am not surprised at all. Because if people did embrace the facts that we are part of the very animal kingdom that we abuse and annihilate, They might then think twice about how significant the destruction of a human embryo is in comparison to the destruction of millions of our pain feeling, fear experiencing, sentient etc. cousins every-day.

At the end of the day "because the Bible said so" just isn't a viable response to the true utter atrocities committed (and largely ignored yet vastly more destructive) by mankind every day.

I am 'surprised' a bit.... WHat are you talking about, its not sin to hunt animals, its perfectly fine, it is to hunt humans and a lot of sin is that.

 

[thelord's_pearl]

@FuggySevant, God said to bless and do not curse. You do not have the authority to curse. If you do, you will be cursed! Please pray for yourself and who you're cursing in the name of Jesus and repent! in lovingkindness

I am 'surprised' a bit.... WHat are you talking about, its not sin to hunt animals, its perfectly fine, it is to hunt humans and a lot of sin is that.

it is not fine to hunt- to kill for fun! God only allowed us to kill animals in a non-cruel way for eating

 

[NerdGirl]

.

 

[NerdGirl]

it is not fine to hunt- to kill for fun! God only allowed us to kill animals in a non-cruel way for eating

Hunting is not always "killing for fun". Many hunters try to kill as quickly and humanely as possible, and have their catches butchered for feeding their families.

 

[thelord's_pearl]

Hunting is not always "killing for fun". Many hunters try to kill as quickly and humanely as possible, and have their catches butchered for feeding their families.

In the OT, God told how to kill an animal for eating so I'm not sure.

 

[Job 33:6]

Hunting is not always "killing for fun". Many hunters try to kill as quickly and humanely as possible, and have their catches butchered for feeding their families.

Hunting for survival is understandable. That's what lions do. And some communities do this, like tribes of the Amazon jungle for example.

But in our modern society with technology and supermarkets, many hunt purely for fun. There is nothing humane about it at all.

But back on the topic of abortion, We have countless people rallying and protesting and fighting tooth and nail against abortion. Sometimes even against abortions by women who are raped or who may have health conditions where their Life is at risk if they carry out pregnancy.

Some people even fight against abortions, Even early in the pregnancy where the embryo does not feel pain or fear or suffering, nor is it sentient. And yet our culture commonly accepts the idea of picking up a rifle and shooting a deer through the lungs, then watching scream and attempt to run and suffer in blood and pain. Purely for fun.

And oddly enough, to be honest, many of the people who oppose abortion are the same ones who support hunting.

And what is the justification? At best "because the Bible says so".

And even hunting is just one small aspect of how we are utterly destroying wildlife around the world. Yet, often times the same people who oppose abortion are the same ones who are giving the green light for destruction of wildlife refuges in favor of oil and gas drilling. The cognitive dissonance is written all over it.

Personally, I say the reverse. If hunting is ok. If raping and pillaging of wildlife is ok, wildlife that is sentient, wild life that could evolve to one day be like us, wild life that resembles what we evolved from, and wild life that feels and experiences pain...

If raping and pillaging of this world is ok, then so too should be the destruction of a non sentient, non pain experiencing, none fear experiencing, embryo, in a case where a mother had been raped or may experience life threatening conditions if she carries out the pregnancy.

 

[SPF]

And yet our culture commonly accepts the idea of picking up a rifle and shooting a deer through the lungs, then watching scream and attempt to run and suffer in blood and pain. Purely for fun.

Interesting. I have a feeling you don't actually know anyone who hunts deer. I do. Lots of them, and for many many years. I don't know of a single instance, not a single one, where the deer that was killed was not processed for food. And in the instances in which the hunter didn't need or want the meat for food, it was donated to the local food pantry.

Some people even fight against abortions, Even early in the pregnancy where the embryo does not feel pain or fear or suffering, nor is it sentient.

Yes, and it should be more than "some people" It should be all Christians. It should be all Christians because we know that all human beings are created in the Image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value. No Christian should support the 98.5% of abortions performed for convenience reasons.

And oddly enough, to be honest, many of the people who oppose abortion are the same ones who support hunting.

Well sure, God said it was OK to kill animals. He also said it wasn't OK to kill humans. So that sounds pretty consistent to me!

And what is the justification? At best "because the Bible says so".

You keep repeating this, and I find it odd. As a Christian, isn't it important to you what the Bible says? If "The Bible says so", isn't that sort of something we should obey and follow? Are you suggesting that Scripture somehow isn't meant to be an authority in our lives? Is Scripture more of a guidebook where we can pick and choose what we like out of it? You keep saying this "because the Bible says so" quote as if it somehow is meant to refute people who quote Scripture. I don't get it.

Should I reject what Scripture says about us being unique creations, alone in His Image?

Should I reject the Scripture that says we are free to kill and eat animals and that we are to subdue and rule over creation?

You haven’t provided and actionable alternatives or interpretations of Scripture to go by.

Would you tell us how you interpret the passages I quoted about animals?

Genesis 1:28 God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

Genesis 9:1-3 And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth. "The fear of you and the terror of you will be on every beast of the earth and on every bird of the sky; with everything that creeps on the ground, and all the fish of the sea, into your hand they are given. "Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you; I give all to you


Acts 10:9-16 On the next day, as they were on their way and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hour to pray. But he became hungry and was desiring to eat; but while they were making preparations, he fell into a trance; and he *saw the sky opened up, and an object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground, and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the air. A voice came to him, "Get up, Peter, kill and eat!" But Peter said, "By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean." Again a voice came to him a second time, "What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy." This happened three times, and immediately the object was taken up into the sky.

 

[Job 33:6]

Interesting. I have a feeling you don't actually know anyone who hunts deer. I do. Lots of them, and for many many years. I don't know of a single instance, not a single one, where the deer that was killed was not processed for food. And in the instances in which the hunter didn't need or want the meat for food, it was donated to the local food pantry.

Yes, and it should be more than "some people" It should be all Christians. It should be all Christians because we know that all human beings are created in the Image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value. No Christian should support the 98.5% of abortions performed for convenience reasons.

Well sure, God said it was OK to kill animals. He also said it wasn't OK to kill humans. So that sounds pretty consistent to me!

You keep repeating this, and I find it odd. As a Christian, isn't it important to you what the Bible says? If "The Bible says so", isn't that sort of something we should obey and follow? Are you suggesting that Scripture somehow isn't meant to be an authority in our lives? Is Scripture more of a guidebook where we can pick and choose what we like out of it? You keep saying this "because the Bible says so" quote as if it somehow is meant to refute people who quote Scripture. I don't get it.

Should I reject what Scripture says about us being unique creations, alone in His Image?

Should I reject the Scripture that says we are free to kill and eat animals and that we are to subdue and rule over creation?

You haven’t provided and actionable alternatives or interpretations of Scripture to go by.

Would you tell us how you interpret the passages I quoted about animals?

Genesis 1:28 God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

Genesis 9:1-3 And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth. "The fear of you and the terror of you will be on every beast of the earth and on every bird of the sky; with everything that creeps on the ground, and all the fish of the sea, into your hand they are given. "Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you; I give all to you


Acts 10:9-16 On the next day, as they were on their way and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hour to pray. But he became hungry and was desiring to eat; but while they were making preparations, he fell into a trance; and he *saw the sky opened up, and an object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground, and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the air. A voice came to him, "Get up, Peter, kill and eat!" But Peter said, "By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean." Again a voice came to him a second time, "What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy." This happened three times, and immediately the object was taken up into the sky.

I know many who hunt deer. And just because it's processed for food, doesn't make it's murder in cold blood righteous.

And scripture doesn't say that it's "ok" to rape and pillage for fun.

Regarding interpretations of scripture, your morality, shouldn't be dependent on scripture. You should use rationality to examine situations. If you pickup a rifle, And you know that you have an option to just go to a supermarket, But instead you decide to go out into an environment and to take a shot at an animal, That then will experience that pain and will bleed and will potentially try to escape in fear. When that deer screams in pain.

You don't need scripture to tell you if it's right or wrong. You know that pain and suffering and destruction is a bad thing and there's no reason for you to cause it if you don't have to.

Scripture says to subdue wildlife, it doesn't say to go play blood sports with it for personal enjoyment and trophies that can be hung up on a wall.

And the same goes for abortion too, there is no reason to pause the destruction of an embryo if you don't have to.

But the logic applies that if you can cause destruction and pain literally for fun with wildlife, then it logically follows that you should also be able to destroy a non-paying feeling embryo for the sake of saving a mother's life.

 

[Job 33:6]

Like I said above as well, If you live in Amazon jungle, and hunting is necessary to feed your family, This is understandable subduing of wildlife in accordance to scripture.

But if you're bored and it's during the winter months and you went out and just bought a brand new crossbow and you're just looking to have a good time. And you have a supermarket right around the corner that you could go to to pick up food at any given time. This isn't subduing wildlife, this is raping it, literally for personal enjoyment or thrill.

Anyone remember cecil the lion? This rich dentist goes out and murders this picturesque and rare adult male lion.

The same applies with deer or bear hunting.

 

[Job 33:6]

Nobody can try to say that this is in accordance with scripture.

Some rich guy from Minnesota gets on an airplane and flies to Africa so that he can have a trophy.

And it's the same exhilarating feeling that many hunters are looking for as well. They're not worried about feeding their families or starving to death, they're doing it for fun.

 

[SPF]

Regarding interpretations of scripture, your morality, shouldn't be dependent on scripture

The problem with this assertion is that morality itself only exists because God. Right and wrong only exist because God. Morality stems from the immutable character of God. If God did not exist, then objective morals would not exist.

Therefore, as a Christian, I cannot imagine that if Scripture speaks on a moral issue that I, as a follower of Christ, wouldn't rely on Scripture.

So when Scripture says that human beings are created in the Image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value and that it we were created to subdue and rule over the rest of the animal kingdom, and that we are told to freely eat of all creatures - then there is nothing, morally wrong with killing and eating animals. Period.

Does that mean we should treat animals inhumanely? No, and not a single person has suggested that it is acceptable to do so. But are we free to raise animals for slaughter? Absolutely, yes.

But the logic applies that if you can cause destruction and pain literally for fun with wildlife, then it logically follows that you should also be able to destroy a non-paying feeling embryo for the sake of saving a mother's life.

Thankfully that logic does not follow. You, as the king of fallacies, are making yet another here. You're making a categorical mistake. Humans are different than animals.

Humans possess inherent moral worth and value and alone are created in the Image of God. It is always, at all times, immoral to intentionally and purposefully kill another human being - regardless of their level of development. You continue to discriminate against humans based upon their level of development - something you should stop.

 

[Job 33:6]

"The problem with this assertion is that morality itself only exists because God. Right and wrong only exist because God. Morality stems from the immutable character of God. If God did not exist, then objective morals would not exist."

ISIS will tell you the same thing, but this response just isn't sufficient in justifying how people act (particularly in the name of God).


"Does that mean we should treat animals inhumanely? No"

But we do treat them inhumanely. On a regular basis, as described above. This is the problem. And I don't see you responding to cecil. You know that much of hunting isn't done because it's necessary. It's done because people want to experience exhilarating fun. People want trophies.

 

[Job 33:6]

The problem is two fold. In one hand, "because God said so", isn't just a get out of jail free card that lets anyone do whatever they want.

The other half, is that people are doing just this, to rape the land. Examples give above.

I went ahead and googled "do deer scream when shot?", And check out what I found:

Do animals scream or shout in pain, if wounded in real life? :: theHunter: Call of the Wild™ General Discussions

A description from a hunter:
"Way back when I was kid, I made a bad shot on a small buck. It was a spine shot but he was still alive. I was gonna use my knife and cut his throat to finish him off and when I got a hold of him he let out a bellow like scream that scared the hell out of me. I reloaded my muzzleloader and finished him with it instead. From that day on I made...sure my shots were on target and to make clean kills."

Notice the description of activities. The man has technology, he can find a supermarket (or if he is a boy, his dad can). But here he describes, an all too common case of a bad shot. The shot hits this adult deer in the spinal cord. The animal is injured, but not dead. It's in pain, it's suffering. Animals experience fear, they experience suffering. And so this animal let's out one final scream for help, and for life, in terror.


This isn't a rare story. This is the nature of blood sports hunting. Even if the hunter processed and are the animal, nothing removes the inhumane or careless and brutal murder of this animal.

If the guy was starving in the woods and needed to survive, that's one thing. But that's not what most hunters in our modern society are doing. They're doing it because they find some form of pleasure in it.

And scripture says to subdue animals. We hunt to survive. But this isn't about survive. It's about recreation and joy. The line has been crossed where many people are no longer "good stewards" of God's creation. And this is just one aspect that culturally accepted.

 

[SPF]

ISIS will tell you the same thing, but this response just isn't sufficient in justifying how people act (particularly in the name of God).

Sure, just like many other religions will say many other things. Yet, as Christians, we know the Truth.

We know that God exists, that He created the universe, that Jesus was a real person who really lived, and who really died for us and then rose from the dead. Your responses make no sense unless you aren't actually a Christian and don't consider Scripture to be authoritative.

But we do treat them inhumanely. On a regular basis, as described above. This is the problem.

Yes, that is a problem and it's a topic with discussing - but treating animals inhumanely has absolutely nothing to do with the moral worth and value of the unborn and the morality of abortion.

 

[SPF]

The problem is two fold. In one hand, "because God said so", isn't just a get out of jail free card that lets anyone do whatever they want.

The other half, is that people are doing just this, to rape the land. Examples give above.

I went ahead and googled "do deer scream when shot?", And check out what I found:

Do animals scream or shout in pain, if wounded in real life? :: theHunter: Call of the Wild™ General Discussions

A description from a hunter:
"Way back when I was kid, I made a bad shot on a small buck. It was a spine shot but he was still alive. I was gonna use my knife and cut his throat to finish him off and when I got a hold of him he let out a bellow like scream that scared the hell out of me. I reloaded my muzzleloader and finished him with it instead. From that day on I made...sure my shots were on target and to make clean kills."

Notice the description of activities. The man has technology, he can find a supermarket. But here he describes, an all too common case of a bad shot. The shot hits this adult deer in the spinal cord. The animal is injured, but not dead. It's in pain, it's suffering. Animals experience fear, they experience suffering. And so this animal let's out one final scream for help, and for life.


This isn't a rare story. This is the nature of blood sports hunting. Even if the hunter processed and are the animal, nothing removes the inhumane or careless and brutal murder of this animal.

You should consider creating a new topic that discusses the humane treatment of animals, because apparently that's what you actually care about.

 

[Job 33:6]

.

Yes, that is a problem and it's a topic with discussing - but treating animals inhumanely has absolutely nothing to do with the moral worth and value of the unborn and the morality of abortion.

Sure it does. Because, as you know, or ought to know, as people, we evolved from wildlife similar to them. They are literally our distant cousins who could further one day evolve to be just as we are.

"Because the Bible said so" just isn't a get out of jail free card for any act that involves destruction of life.

Simply saying "well I'm Christian, so I'm different and know better", just doesn't cut the check. This is just lazy.

I'm Christian, so it's ok for me to shoot a deer through the spinal cord and lungs with an arrow for fun.


No guys, as Christians, we need to be good stewards of God's creation.

If you're out there hunting for fun, shooting arrows through lungs and spinal cords of deer and bears and lions, and your justification is "well the bible says it's ok", then you should be ashamed of yourself.

And there is no taking a moral high ground over abortion advocates, because the disrespect for Gods creation of life, is present in both. And simply saying, "well I'm Christian and the bible says its ok", is just an intellectually lazy cop out for the mistreatment of God's creation, whether man or animal.

 

[SPF]

Sure it does. Because, as you know, or ought to know, as people, we evolved from wildlife similar to them. They are literally our distant cousins who could further one day evolve to be just as we are.

The problem is that Scripture makes a distinct difference between Human beings and the rest of the animal kingdom. It seems that you deny this difference and reject the Biblical teaching on this. That's fine, but don't be shocked when other Christians don't reject Scripture like you do.

"Because the Bible said so" just isn't a get out of jail free card for any act that involves destruction of life.

It would be if the Bible provided justification for any act that involves destruction of life. But it doesn't, and nobody has suggested it has. This again, oh King of Fallacies is a straw-man.

Simply saying "well I'm Christian, so I'm different and know better", just doesn't cut the check. This is just lazy.

Unless it's actually true. As a Christian, I do know better than an atheist and a Muslim about many things related to God and the universe.

I'm Christian, so it's ok for me to shoot a deer through the spinal cord with an arrow for fun.

Again, nobody is saying it's OK to kill animals just for fun. Have you seen anyone? You keep talking to yourself and presenting these straw-man arguments that nobody else is suggesting. You should probably stop and respond to the content of what people say instead of creating your own dialogue that nobody is talking about.