A question of Creed

[Philip]

I'm what you call a "Strict" or "Particular" Baptist. We are Reformed in Theology and Puritan in Tradition. I am sure that we accept the Apostle's and the Nincene Creed, as we recite them in our services, as so all Reformed Churches that I know of.

Which form of the Nicene Creed do you accept? Do you accept it in its original meaning?

 

[puriteen18]

Which form of the Nicene Creed do you accept? Do you accept it in its original meaning?

The Nicene Creed I have seen is a bit different from both.

It says

" ...one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church..."
"...who proceedeth from the Father and the Son..."
"...and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary..."

Of course, though, we believe that the "one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" is the invisible Church, not a specific denomination. It included all believers form their own church, yet we believe that churches who teach damnatable heresies are not included. (i.e. denial of the trinity, denial that Christ is the only path of Salvation, et cetera.)

And it has other differences that really don't matter, but:
It uses "I" instead of we, and has the archaic "th"s at the ends of some verbs.

 

[Philip]

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The Nicene Creed I have seen is a bit different from both.

It says

" ...one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church..."
"...who proceedeth from the Father and the Son..."
"...and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary..."

That sounds like the one used in most Protestant churches (at least those who use a creed) and the one I grew up with. It was only latter that I learned that the Creed had been changed in some cases. I was suprised at the implications of some of those changes.

Of course, though, we believe that the "one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" is the invisible Church, not a specific denomination.

I believe that is the standard interpretation in Protestantism. The Orthodox understand it to refer to a visible Church since the Early Fathers made no mention of an invisible one.

It included all believers form their own church, yet we believe that churches who teach damnatable heresies are not included. (i.e. denial of the trinity, denial that Christ is the only path of Salvation, et cetera.)

In general, we do not concern ourselves with who is exculded, only that we are included.

It uses "I" instead of we,

We use "I" when it is an individual's confession of faith. We use "we" when it is a statement of faith for the Church.

 

[JVAC]

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Of course, though, we believe that the "one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" is the invisible Church, not a specific denomination. It included all believers form their own church, yet we believe that churches who teach damnatable heresies are not included. (i.e. denial of the trinity, denial that Christ is the only path of Salvation, et cetera.)

Just checking, but does your version Capitalize the C on catholic, because the one I have always seen has not been, this means not the Roman Catholic church but the Universal faith of our Lord, that is why this word is there. Catholic is a rather intense unifier, in which it expresses the fact that everyone does it and in that they are a unified church.

In other news, I don't see how the Holy Spirit can't flow from the son, for he does baptise with "the Holy Spirit and Fire", and does have all authority. Not only that but 'temporaly'? If the Son is Eternally begotten time has nothing to do with this, temporal has the meaning of time in it, yet eternal has the meaning of time,which bans all other conceptions of time. I don't see how you can use 'temporaly'. The Holy Spirit must proceed from the Father and the Son.

I see that the originality of the creed was in the form you use, however, if something is lacking, it might need to be added. Now the Creed is quite excellent but not perfect. If the Holy Spirit could help found it, couldn't he help ammend it?

 

[JVAC]

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, yet we believe that churches who teach damnatable heresies are not included. (i.e. denial of the trinity, denial that Christ is the only path of Salvation, et cetera.)

Just wanted to say what a great way to use the Quincunque Vult.

 

[Philip]

In other news, I don't see how the Holy Spirit can't flow from the son, for he does baptise with "the Holy Spirit and Fire", and does have all authority. Not only that but 'temporaly'? If the Son is Eternally begotten time has nothing to do with this, temporal has the meaning of time in it, yet eternal has the meaning of time,which bans all other conceptions of time. I don't see how you can use 'temporaly'.

Temporaly does mean within time. Christ sends the the Spirit to us, just as my wife sends me to the store to get milk. She has sent me on a temporal mission, but she is not the source of my existence. The Spirit's mission is vastly more important, but it is a temporal mission. Christ has not been sending the Spirit to us since before the Creation. However, the Spirit has been proceeding from the Father for all eternity.

John 15:26 (RSVA)
But when the Counselor comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness to me; ​

Notice that Christ says He will send the Counselor. That sending is limited in time (in the future, from the POV of the listeners.). Notice also that the verse says that Christ will send the Spirit from the Father and that the Spirit proceeds from the Father. The Spirit's, like the Son's, eternal existence has its source in the Father. The Spirit's interaction with us is due to Christ sending the Spirit to us from the Father. This is why I do not have a theological objection to the statement "who proceeds from the Father throught the Son". (I do, however, still object to it being added to the Creed unilaterally.)

I see that the originality of the creed was in the form you use, however, if something is lacking, it might need to be added. Now the Creed is quite excellent but not perfect. If the Holy Spirit could help found it, couldn't he help ammend it?

Indeed, the Spirit could guide the Church to extend the Creed. This happened at the First Council of Constantinople. The original Nicene Creed, written at the First Council of Niceae, did not discuss the Holy Spirit. It had been written to denounce Arianism, and so it focused on Christ and His relationship to the Father. Later, another heresy arose denying the Divinity of the Spirit. It seemed good to the Holy Spirit to amend the Creed in Constantinople to affirm the Divinity of the Spirit as well. The addition occurred in an Ecumenical Council representing the entire Church, and it was accepted and affirmed by the entire Church.

The addition of the filloque is different. It was offically added by one man, and it has never been accepted or affirmed by the entire Church.

 

[puriteen18]

Just checking, but does your version Capitalize the C on catholic, because the one I have always seen has not been, this means not the Roman Catholic church but the Universal faith of our Lord, that is why this word is there. Catholic is a rather intense unifier, in which it expresses the fact that everyone does it and in that they are a unified church.

I see that the originality of the creed was in the form you use, however, if something is lacking, it might need to be added. Now the Creed is quite excellent but not perfect. If the Holy Spirit could help found it, couldn't he help ammend it?

I have seen both "Catholic" and "catholic". I don't thimk it matters since we are taught that it is not the Papal church, but the invisible church.

In the case of changing a creed: We have been taught the great Protestant pillar of Sola Scriptura. All of our doctrine must come from the Bible, not Creeds. There is nothing wrong with a Creed so long as it does not teach contrary to the Bible. Which the Nicene Creed does not.

 

[Crazy Liz]

In discussing translations of the creed into English, here are some links to look at:

http://faculty.bbc.edu/rdecker/documents/GreekCreeds.pdf is in .pdf format, and shows the Greek text and an English translation side-by-side.

http://www.makedisciples.com/nicene-c.html compares 2 different English translations.

http://www.crcna.org/crbe/crbe_creed_nicene.htm is a version approved by the CRC. It arranges the articles in list form, rather than paragraph form, which may be helpful.