A question of Creed

[JVAC]

Which churches, other than Anglican, Catholic and Lutheran, accept the creeds of the church: Apostolic, Nicene, Athanasian (Quincunque Vult)??? Curious as to which denominations hold them true, and if not then why do they reject them?

 

[JVAC]

I think I will include the creeds here to make it easier for those of you who aren't familiar with them...

Apotsle’s Creed



I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only son our Lord.

He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and Born of the virgin Mary.

He suffered under Pontius Plate, was crucified, died, and was buried.

He descended into hell.

On the third day he rose again.

He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come againt to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,

the holy catholic Church,

the communion of saints,

the forgiveness of sins,

the resurrection of the body,

and life everlasting. Amen.





Nicene Creed



We believe in one God,

the Father, the Almighty,

maker of heaven and earth,

of all that is, seen and unseen



We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,

the only Son of God

eternally begotten of the Father,

God from God, Light from Light,

true God from true God,

begotten not made,

of one Being with the Father.

Through him all things were made.

For us and for our salvation

he came down from heaven;

by the power of the Holy Spirit

he became incarnate from the virgin Mary, and was made man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;

he suffered death and was buried.

On the third day he rose again

In accordance with the Scriptures;

he ascended into heaven

and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,

and his kingdom shall have no end.



We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,

Who proceeds from the Father and the Son.

With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.

He has spoken through the prophets.

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

We acknowledge one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

We look for the resurrection of the dead,

And the life of the world to come. Amen.

stay tuned for Quincunque Vult (athanasian creed)

 

[JVAC]

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith.

Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

And the Catholic Faith is this:
That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity,

Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance [size=-1][Essence][/size].

For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost.

But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one, the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal.

Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost.

The Father uncreate [size=-1][uncreated][/size], the Son uncreate [size=-1][uncreated][/size], and the Holy Ghost uncreate [size=-1][uncreated][/size].

The Father incomprehensible [size=-1][unlimited][/size], the Son incomprehensible [size=-1][unlimited][/size], and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible [size=-1][unlimited][/size].

The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal.

And yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal.

As also there are not three incomprehensibles [size=-1][infinites][/size], nor three uncreated, but one uncreated, and one incomprehensible [size=-1][infinite][/size].

So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty.

And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty.

So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God.

And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord.

And yet not three Lords, but one Lord.

For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity: to acknowledge every Person by himself to be both God and Lord,

So are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion, to say, There be [size=-1][are][/size] three Gods, or three Lords.

The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten.

The Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten.

The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts.

And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other; none is greater, or less than another [size=-1][there is nothing before, or after: nothing greater or less][/size];

But the whole three Persons are co-eternal together and co-equal.

So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

He therefore that will be saved must [size=-1][let him][/size] thus think of the Trinity.



Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man;

God, of the Substance [size=-1][Essence][/size] of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [size=-1][Essence][/size] of his Mother, born in the world;

Perfect God and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting;

Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father, as touching his Manhood.

Who although he be [size=-1][is][/size] God and Man, yet he is not two, but one Christ;

One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking assumption of the Manhood into God;

One altogether, not by confusion of Substance [size=-1][Essence][/size], but by unity of Person.

For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ;

Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell [size=-1][Hades, spirit-world][/size], rose again the third day from the dead.

He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God [size=-1][God the Father][/size] Almighty,

From whence [size=-1][thence][/size] he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies

And shall give account for their own works.

And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully [size=-1][truly and firmly][/size], he cannot be saved.

There they are

 

[Peter]

It should be noted that when there was only one church, the Nicene Creed was the only Creed, and not in the form you posted. The EOC still holds to the creed as canonized by the church. It is the only creed recognized by the church. It still holds to the original definitions of the creed. IMO, the EOC is the church of the creed.

Peace.

Peter

 

[Philip]

It should be noted that when there was only one church, the Nicene Creed was the only Creed, and not in the form you posted.

Just to clarify, the original form of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed is (with the differences highlighted)

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of Light; true God of true God; begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made; who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man. And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried. And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; whose Kingdom shall have no end.
And [we believe] in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets. In one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.​

Notice that the original form of the Creed affirmed that Mary the Theotokos participated in the Incarnation. Also, notice the lack of the fillioque. Finally, the Blessed Fathers, guided by the Holy Spirit, affirmed a belief in one visible Church, not a multitude of visible churches as part of a universal invisible Church.

 

[Oblio]

JVAC,

Where did you get that copy of the Creed that says:


by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the virgin Mary, and was made man.

vs

and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man.

There is a subtle but important difference between the two.

 

[JVAC]

JVAC,

Where did you get that copy of the Creed that says:


by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the virgin Mary, and was made man.

vs

and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man.

There is a subtle but important difference between the two.

I took the Nicene Creed from the 'Lutheran Book of Worship'. This is the creed that has been used in the western catholic tradition after the 1054 Schism because of "Filioque". Yet, I was wondering if those reformed* churches still hold true these creeds.

Granted the Nicene Creed originally existed without 'filioque', it is generally accepted in the catholic tradition. I did not expect our Orthodox brothers to hold 'filioque' true, however.

I am curious as to your feelings about the others, do you agree with them? This 'filioque' discussion also would be interesting to discus further.

 

[Oblio]

Thanks JVAC,

I was more concerned with the phrase by the power of the Holy Spirit rather than of the Holy Spirit. Left to fester, this can be used to substantiate heresy that Christ Jesus was born not supernaturally of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, but rather was fathered by someone acting under the power of the Holy Spirit. This of course would be a blasphemous attack on orthodox theology, and is seen today among some liberal 'Christians'. Please understand that I am not saying that you or your faith does this, but that the Creed is meant, with God inspired wording, to assist us in holding fast to the truth.

 

[JVAC]

Thanks JVAC,

I was more concerned with the phrase by the power of the Holy Spirit rather than of the Holy Spirit. Left to fester, this can be used to substantiate heresy that Christ Jesus was born not supernaturally of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, but rather was fathered by someone acting under the power of the Holy Spirit. This of course would be a blasphemous attack on orthodox theology, and is seen today among some liberal 'Christians'. Please understand that I am not saying that you or your faith does this, but that the Creed is meant, with God inspired wording, to assist us in holding fast to the truth.

I see your point, yet when I look at the text of the Nicene creed I do notice it says "virgin Mary", so the assumption that a man could have helped conceive the Christ holds no ground; for a virgin has not yet engaged in intercourse and thus the there can be no human father of a person born of a virgin (excepting the recent invention of artificial insemination, yet that works not for this example).

It indeed would be a blasphemous and heretical view of the immaculate conception if one did hold that God through a man concieved the Christ, for then the Christ would have been born into original sin and thus be a blemished sacrifice which would be unable to atone for our sins. How could they believe such a thing is beyond me, but you did have a legitamate point, yet through reason I believe such a heresy would have no grounds to stand on.

 

[JVAC]

Just to clarify, the original form of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed is (with the differences highlighted)

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of Light; true God of true God; begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made; who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man. And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried. And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; whose Kingdom shall have no end.
And [we believe] in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets. In one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
​

Notice that the original form of the Creed affirmed that Mary the Theotokos participated in the Incarnation. Also, notice the lack of the fillioque. Finally, the Blessed Fathers, guided by the Holy Spirit, affirmed a belief in one visible Church, not a multitude of visible churches as part of a universal invisible Church.

Thanks for the original creed. However, I do not see how the Spirit only comes from the Father, it should be reasonable to assume that since there is one divine being one of the aspects is supported by the other two. If the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, shouldn't it also be reasonable that it proceed from the son, who is equal to the Father in divinity and was given all authority in heaven and earth?

 

[Oblio]

The Holy Spirit is sent temporaly from the Son, but He proceeds eternally from the Father. We could probably have a whole forum on this subject though

It indeed would be a blasphemous and heretical view of the immaculate conception if one did hold that God through a man concieved the Christ, for then the Christ would have been born into original sin and thus be a blemished sacrifice which would be unable to atone for our sins.

Orthodox do not hold to the Western view of Original sin, or that of the doctrine of the IC that is derived from it. The problem with man conceiving Christ is that our salvation requires the homousios of the Divine and human.

I understand your point about the 'Virgin' Mary, but there are great numbers of people born of a mother who was Virgin just prior to their conception. I am not sure that the grammar precludes this case.

 

[Oblio]

If the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, shouldn't it also be reasonable that it proceed from the son, who is equal to the Father in divinity and was given all authority in heaven and earth?

We do not say that the Son is eternally Begotten from the Holy Spirit because He was Begotton from the Father Who shares His Divinity.

 

[Crazy Liz]

Just to clarify, the original form of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed is (with the differences highlighted)

The version posted by Oblio contains the filioque, which the EOC does not accept, and most Christians are willing to dispense with on the ground it was not in the version adopted by the Councils, whether they believe theologically it is correct or not. The other differences you highlighted are no more than differences in translations from Greek to English. Like Christians may prefer one or another English translation of scripture, they may prefer one or another translation of the Creed. We do need to understand, though, that any English version of the Nicene Creed is a translation, and it was the original Greek version that was adopted by the Church.

 

[JVAC]

But no one knows who accepts them and who doesn't?

 

[Philip]

Thanks for the original creed. However, I do not see how the Spirit only comes from the Father, it should be reasonable to assume that since there is one divine being one of the aspects is supported by the other two. If the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, shouldn't it also be reasonable that it proceed from the son, who is equal to the Father in divinity and was given all authority in heaven and earth?

The Son is equal to the Father in Divinity, but is not the same as the Father. The Father is the source, the fountainhead of the Trinity. Just as the Son is begotten of the Father (not the Father and the Spirit), so too does the Spirit proceed from the Father (not the Father and the Son). I have no theological objection to the statement that Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son, but do object to amending the Creed.

 

[Philip]

The version posted by Oblio contains the filioque, which the EOC does not accept,

Do you mean JVAC?

The other differences you highlighted are no more than differences in translations from Greek to English.

Do you have a citation for this? I don't think the phrases "and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary" and "by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the virgin Mary" could be valid translations of the same Greek phrase.

Like Christians may prefer one or another English translation of scripture, they may prefer one or another translation of the Creed.

Should the translation of the Creed or Scriptures be matter of preference or accuracy?

We do need to understand, though, that any English version of the Nicene Creed is a translation, and it was the original Greek version that was adopted by the Church.

Some English versions are a translation. Others are paraphrases. Some border on being complete rewrites. The Greek version makes it clear that the Theotokos participated in the Incarnation. Any version that denies this cannot be considered a translation.

 

[puriteen18]

(commputer problems)

 

[puriteen18]

Which churches, other than Anglican, Catholic and Lutheran, accept the creeds of the church: Apostolic, Nicene, Athanasian (Quincunque Vult)??? Curious as to which denominations hold them true, and if not then why do they reject them?

I'm what you call a "Strict" or "Particular" Baptists. We are Puritan Reformed in Theology. I am sure that we accept the Apostle's and the Nincene Creed, as we recite them in our services, as so all Reformed Churches that I know of.

I believe we accept the Athanasian, but am not sure since it is sparcly mentioned. I have never read it through either.

I suppose that some of the reasons why denominations may reject them is because they are seen as extra-Biblical, too "Catholic", too conservative, or just simply too old.

Of course there are probably hundreds of reasons that denominations reject these, but all reasons will probably fit into one of the above categories.

 

[Crazy Liz]

Do you mean JVAC?

Sorry. Yes.

Do you have a citation for this? I don't think the phrases "and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary" and "by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the virgin Mary" could be valid translations of the same Greek phrase.

I have no citation, but I am not aware of two different Greek versions, with the possible exception of the addition of the filioque.

Maybe someone who knows more about this can tell us whether the filioque insertion is only found in the Latin version (translation) or if there is a Greek version in which it has been inserted.

Should the translation of the Creed or Scriptures be matter of preference or accuracy?

Some English versions are a translation. Others are paraphrases. Some border on being complete rewrites. The Greek version makes it clear that the Theotokos participated in the Incarnation. Any version that denies this cannot be considered a translation.

It sounds like you are attacking a bad translation. Many Christians labor under all kinds of misconceptions because of bad translations.

 

[Philip]

Maybe someone who knows more about this can tell us whether the filioque insertion is only found in the Latin version (translation) or if there is a Greek version in which it has been inserted.

There is absolutely no historical doubt concerning the origin of the filioque. It was not (and still is not) part of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed. It first occurred in a Western version of the Creed originating in Spain. It was latter affirmed Rome. It was never accepted as part of the Creed by the Orthodox Church.