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A question I don't think creationists will answer.

selfinflikted

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This thread is 6 years old... Tell me how this is not trolling.

Well, if you're inclined to hop on that particular bandwagon, some would say it isn't trolling, per se, but rather an exercise in narcissism.

Personally, I just think AV gets bored with current topics and likes to necro old threads simply because he knows it gets a rise out of people. People like me. ;)
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by AV1611VET
Are you Beamishboy, that used to post here?

No? I have no idea who that is.
Is this the one? :)
Didn't he call you an old geezer or something like that?

beamishboy
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AV1611VET

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Personally, I just think AV gets bored with current topics and likes to necro old threads simply because he knows it gets a rise out of people.
:cool: -- I plead the Fifth.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus
Didn't he call you an old geezer or something like that?
Your memory is better than mine! ;)
:)
As Rodney Dangerfield would say: "I get no respect"

Isa 3:5
People will oppress each other— man against man, neighbor against neighbor.
The young will rise up against the old, the nobody against the honored.

You and him did go round and round a lot, if I remember correctly eheheh

http://www.christianforums.com/t6821653-2/#post46889404
Originally Posted by beamishboy
What is the title of Geisler's book that you recommend? I'll order it from Amazon. I am actually quite interested in reading a more conservative view.
I thought FF Bruce was as fundamentalist as AV1611VET. Hehe.
.
 
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Queller

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Well I was throwing in a bit of a joke with the smiling moon. But I am detecting some ridicule there which is uncalled for. The assumption that if a person chooses to believe therefore hasn't got a brain or uses it is unfair and quite harsh. Some of the greatest scientist are Christians and some of the greatest people who have given us some great scientific break throughs are also christians and believe in a creator God. IE

Nicholas Copernicus , Galileo Galilei, Isaac Newton, Gregor Mendel, Albert Einstein, Francis Bacon, Ernst Haeckel, Louis Pasteur, Johannes Kepler, Max Plank.
How did any of the people you mentioned use their belief in a creator God to further their work?
 
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Split Rock

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I examined creation and came to the conclusion that it's virtually impossible for creation to exist without a creator.

You are merely asserting this is a "creation," which of course entails are "creator." This is called "begging the question."
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by justlookinla
I examined creation and came to the conclusion that it's virtually impossible for creation to exist without a creator.
You are merely asserting this is a "creation," which of course entails are "creator." This is called "begging the question."
That is indeed biblical :angel:

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

Greek Lexicon :: G2937 (YLT)
Strong's Number G2937 matches the Greek κτίσις (ktisis), which occurs 20 times in 19 verses in the Greek concordance
2937. ktisis from 2936; original formation (properly, the act; by implication, the thing, literally or figuratively):--building, creation, creature, ordinance.

Mar 10:6
But from the beginning of the creation G2937 God,made them male and female.

Rom 1:25
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator,
who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Rev 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power:
for Thou hast created G2936 all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. G2936


.
 
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Tellastory

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Please explain how bacteria develop resistance to antibiotics...?

It's still a bacteria, right? It doesn't prove macro evolution or even hint at it.

That's like explaining how some of us can develop an immunity. It was in our system to be able to resist. Those with developed immunity are no more an X-Man than anyone else that did not developed an immunity is a homo inferior. Man is still a man and a bacteria is still a bacteria.

Please explain how bacteria developed the ability to digest nylon..?

Adaptation. Like man adapting to his environment. Just because it is not generally known, it does not mean it never had that means to do so.

Please note: again it does not prove nor hint at macro evolution because it is still a bacteria.

Please explain how E. coli developed the ability to digest citrase...?

Who said it never had that ability? And yet the E coli has not evolved into anything else other than an E coli.
 
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Delphiki

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It's still a bacteria, right? It doesn't prove macro evolution or even hint at it.

First, get it out of your head that there is some distinction between micro evolution and macro evolution. There is just evolution. Micro and macro are only terms we use to define scale. The difference between micro evolution and macro evolution is the same as microscopic and macroscopic. You can't accept microscopic things and deny the existence of macroscopic things.

Second, bacteria will always be bacteria. Humans will always be humans. Whatever bacteria or humans evolve into will simply be a subset of bacteria and humans. For example, the reason why we say humans and chimpanzees are both apes is because we both evolved from a common ape ancestor. And yes, even the birds you see today are still technically dinosaurs.

Lastly, the idea that "macroevolution" says that a species should evolve into some other laterally classified species is a strawman made up by creationists out of a misunderstanding of the Theory of Evolution. Those who aren't vehemently opposed to science and are at least willing to accept a basic education in biology understand this.
 
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Tellastory

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Why the KJV only?

I have found that the Received Texts or the Textus Receptus which originated from Antioch as the source is more reliable than those source documents originating from Alexandria were poetic licensing & gnostism is known to have existed.

Acts 11:26And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch

Secular history reports how plagiarized literatures has been done in Alexandria to verify poetic licensing as well as gnosticism being in the area.

Jesus had testified that the Father said that those that did not love Jesus nor His words would not keep His saying and those that did love His words would.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Jesus prophesied that just as He was persecuted, so will they persecute His disciples by not keeping their sayings as well.

John 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

Alot of omissions have been done to the testimony of the deity of Christ in the NIV. One can still find it in the NIV, but in comparison, it should be telltaling about the source documents at Alexandria was indeed subjected to poetic licensing and gnosticism. They changed it enough to suit their needs as the leaders will use those changed references to support their false teachings in denying the deity of Christ to steer followers away from the word of God in seeking secret knowledge which one can suspect praying & fasting was a means to obtain it by. I do digress....

False teachings abounds and apostasy is across all the denomenational churches wherein hopefully a few are still keeping to the faith, but I am not holding my breath since no church wants to examine themselves in the faith: prove all church traditions by the scripture via reformation..

Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord: 12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it. 13 In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.

So if there be any doubt as to the meaning of His words, go before that throne of grace and trust Jesus as your Good Shepherd to give you wisdom in understanding His words as they are kept in the KJV.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
 
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HitchSlap

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I have found that the Received Texts or the Textus Receptus which originated from Antioch as the source is more reliable than those source documents originating from Alexandria were poetic licensing & gnostism is known to have existed.

Acts 11:26And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch

Secular history reports how plagiarized literatures has been done in Alexandria to verify poetic licensing as well as gnosticism being in the area.

Jesus had testified that the Father said that those that did not love Jesus nor His words would not keep His saying and those that did love His words would.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Jesus prophesied that just as He was persecuted, so will they persecute His disciples by not keeping their sayings as well.

John 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

Alot of omissions have been done to the testimony of the deity of Christ in the NIV. One can still find it in the NIV, but in comparison, it should be telltaling about the source documents at Alexandria was indeed subjected to poetic licensing and gnosticism. They changed it enough to suit their needs as the leaders will use those changed references to support their false teachings in denying the deity of Christ to steer followers away from the word of God in seeking secret knowledge which one can suspect praying & fasting was a means to obtain it by. I do digress....

False teachings abounds and apostasy is across all the denomenational churches wherein hopefully a few are still keeping to the faith, but I am not holding my breath since no church wants to examine themselves in the faith: prove all church traditions by the scripture via reformation..

Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord: 12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it. 13 In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.

So if there be any doubt as to the meaning of His words, go before that throne of grace and trust Jesus as your Good Shepherd to give you wisdom in understanding His words as they are kept in the KJV.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
Get back in line. Now that's a good boy.
 
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DogmaHunter

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It's still a bacteria, right? It doesn't prove macro evolution or even hint at it.

That's like explaining how some of us can develop an immunity. It was in our system to be able to resist. Those with developed immunity are no more an X-Man than anyone else that did not developed an immunity is a homo inferior. Man is still a man and a bacteria is still a bacteria.



Adaptation. Like man adapting to his environment. Just because it is not generally known, it does not mean it never had that means to do so.

Please note: again it does not prove nor hint at macro evolution because it is still a bacteria.



Who said it never had that ability? And yet the E coli has not evolved into anything else other than an E coli.

Can you define what you mean exactly with 'macro evolution'?
Can you also mention what kind of evidence you would accept?
 
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Tellastory

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First, get it out of your head that there is some distinction between micro evolution and macro evolution. There is just evolution. Micro and macro are only terms we use to define scale. The difference between micro evolution and macro evolution is the same as microscopic and macroscopic. You can't accept microscopic things and deny the existence of macroscopic things.

The problem is micro evolution is the law of Bio Genesis whereas macro evolution is only theoritical, is not observed, and cannot be proven.

Second, bacteria will always be bacteria. Humans will always be humans. Whatever bacteria or humans evolve into will simply be a subset of bacteria and humans.

The above quote of yours is the law of biogenesis. By your own quote above, you are opposing yourself in the next quote below.

For example, the reason why we say humans and chimpanzees are both apes is because we both evolved from a common ape ancestor. And yes, even the birds you see today are still technically dinosaurs.

Still yet to be proven. So either bacteria will always be bacteria and humans will always be humans like the law of biogenesis says and even you said so too, OR bacteria will not always be bacteria and humans will not always be humans. See?

The use of microscopic to prove the existence of macroscopic things is hardly the same thing after all when it involves seeing them whereas we are talking about how the microscopic becomes the macroscopic as in micro evolution will become macroevolution if given enough time.

Lastly, the idea that "macroevolution" says that a species should evolve into some other laterally classified species is a strawman made up by creationists out of a misunderstanding of the Theory of Evolution.

Prove that creationists made that up while I point to an educational site at Berkeley explaining what macro evolution is:

What is macroevolution?

Macroevolution refers to evolution of groups larger than an individual species.

That means when a cow is no longer a cow that it cannot reproduce with said cow because it is an entirely different and larger animal.

Those who aren't vehemently opposed to science and are at least willing to accept a basic education in biology understand this.

They do oppose each other as your quotes do quite easily, because one can throw out the law of biogenesis if macro evolution is true, but it is not prove because it is not observed nor proven as easily as the law of Biogenesis is.

Remember the first law of thermodynamics? That nothing can be created out of nothing and nothing can be destroyed? Now apply that to your DNA. No genetic information is going to be added to your DNA to sprout wings. It cannot come out of nowhere and suddenly you are another kind of creature and thus no longer the former to be able to mate with the former kind to continue its lineage.

Example of this in cross breeding of species: the lion & tiger are close in relations and science cross breeded them together and got a liger, both make & female: BUT in spite of the fact that they normally do not breed together naturally, they are both impotent.

Now imagine cross breeding happening by chance? The horse & mule breeding are still overlooking the fact that the offspring is impotent.

Now what are the chances for a species to receive an extra genetic information added to its DNA to no longer be that creature, but another kind of creature? Zero. AND to have a member of the opposite sex to continue its lineage? Less than zero.

Waving a magic wand of millions of years for a gradual evolutionary change and yet still leaving its former kind behind that has not undergone the same change should be highly circumspect, but it isn't, because some people want to believe in the evolution theory as some of those people push it like a cult in science because they simply do not want to believe in God. The mistake in science is not seeing their athiestic point of view on the evidence whereas some believers in God see evidence for a world wide flood, but "science" hold it against the believers in God as a view that they want to believe in while failing to see the athiests doing the same thing.

Science are opposing themselves and they know it not.

The reservoir effect has been used by science to explain why certain fossil findings are having faulty datings as those in the water would have less exposure to carbon 14 to get an accurate reading and thus appear older than those exposed to the air. Yet they cannot apply that as to why the fossils records of that which was buried in sentiments is older than the 6,000 years Biblical record? That is an example of two ships passing each other in the night.

And with evolutionary blinders on: mass graves of marine fossils with whale bones have been found with fossilized animal bones on mountaintops in South & Latin America, Northeastern Africa, Turkey, & China are not being seen as evidence of a world wide flood.

Science explain the explosion of pre cambrian - cambrian fossils when one claimed it had to occur by a mass extinction,

Cambrian Period & Cambrian Explosion: Facts & Information

The middle of the Cambrian Period began with an extinction event. Many of the reef-building organisms died out, as well as the most primitive trilobites. One hypothesis suggests that this was due to a temporary depletion of oxygen caused by an upwelling of cooler water from deep ocean areas. This upwelling eventually resulted in a variety of marine environments ranging from the deep ocean to the shallow coastal zones. Scientists hypothesize that this increase in available ecological niches set the stage for the abrupt radiation in life forms commonly called the “Cambrian Explosion

The emboldened portion hypothesis supports the global flood too.

That article reported minor species fossilization, but they did not take in the full picture of other report findings elsewhere.

WHALE FOSSILS HIGH IN ANDES SHOW HOW MOUNTAINS ROSE FROM SEA - NYTimes.com

''For example,'' Dr. Novacek said, ''we found the oyster beds and sand dollars just beneath the lowest sediments containing land animals. At that point the water was shallow and receding rapidly - a time of transition from sea to land, as the land was thrust up by magma and the movement of tectonic plates.'' In more recent sediments, the group found species related to modern rodents, porcupines, rhinoceroses and camels. Among the many fossil curiosities they came across were ungulates (including a rabbit-like ungulate), marsupials and giant sloths.

Talk about clueless. Fossilized animal got buried in that same sentiment, but they want to infer the smaller marine fossils in the lowest sentiments as if it happened at a different time?

Not only did they fail to note that fossilized whale bones were not found in the lowest sediments, but they fail to combine other fossil reports to figure it out that both fossilization of land & marine had to have happened at the same time as other mass graves can be found at different locations over the world.

And they want to extrapolate a gradual transitional fossil happening over a period of time like millions of years. Under the hypothesis of a global flood mass extinction event with everything buried in water and sediments, is science accounting for the reservoir effect as to why fossils are older than they appear? Of course marine fossils would be "older" than the land fossils because of the reservoir effect, but that does not mean the event did not happen at the same time.

They even came up with many extinction events, but they do so by the age of the fossils.

Extinction

Owing to the incompleteness of our understanding of the fossil record, mass extinctions are harder to pin down than it might seem, and the task becomes more difficult the farther one goes back in time. Very ancient rocks are poorly represented today, so we cannot say with surety than a given assemblage went extinct within a geologically short interval or not; the critical horizon may simply not be available for sampling.

So it is not presently known for sure how many mass extinctions have occurred throughout the history of life on earth, and different authors offer varied interpretations. There is good evidence available for most of Phanerozoic, however, and nearly every recent publication will list the following events as being of the greatest severity:

So like, the viewpoint of everything happening at once like a global flood is never considered in that article that would account for the various fossil datings due to the reservoir effect.

So evolutionary science does not know what it is talking about as they are like ships passing each other in the night only because they are presenting their individual findings in an evolutionary's point of view without taking in account of other "evolutionary" reports that opposes their individual findings & yet supports evidence of a global flood.
 
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Dizredux

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Oh my, are you trying to set a record for the most erroneous facts in a single post? You are doing a good job but those before you have left a legacy of some very high standards for this so you may have a ways to go.


So far my favorite is:
Example of this in cross breeding of species: the lion & tiger are close in relations and science cross breeded them together and got a liger, both make & female: BUT in spite of the fact that they normally do not breed together naturally, they are both impotent.

Now imagine cross breeding happening by chance? The horse & mule breeding are still overlooking the fact that the offspring is impotent
"Impotent" You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. You might consider looking it up.

Dizredux
 
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DogmaHunter

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Oh my, are you trying to set a record for the most erroneous facts in a single post? You are doing a good job but those before you have left a legacy of some very standards for this so you may have a ways to go.


So far my favorite is:
"Impotent" You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. You might consider looking it up.

Dizredux


My favorite part was when he tried using the 1st law of thermodynamics to claim that DNA can't mutate ^_^

Quotemining the berkely site and then misrepresenting the quote mine came in a close second though.

Not to mention his nonsense about "the law of biogenesis", lol.

:doh:
 
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